Valyrian activity in the North

[AlaskanSandman]

20 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I always thought Val could be a descendant of Bloodraven and or Shaeria Seastar, possibly their grandchild. Val speaks almost like a noble despite being a wildling and is incredibly beautiful like most Valyrians, her very name could be a clue and an ode to her ancestry, Valyrian . I'd be surprised if there isn't a thread on this site or another that explores the possibilities of Val being of Valyrian decent. If Dalla is Val full sister and not a half one that could be a reason Mance married her.

I've toyed with the idea just tracing Bael who has a Valyrian name, along with Maege Mormont. Bael was likely either around Brandon the Burner and Hardhome, around 300BC or he predates that and is around 1300BC. He is listed as having been centuries after the Horned Lord who was either in 1700BC or 700BC.

I further suspect Alysanne of having a kid with a Stark possibly at Queen's Crown. Possibly Gael her 13th child the Winter Child. Though i do wonder about twins leading to Val. Though Blood Raven in the mix is a possibility too, though i assumed their daughter was Melony/Melisandre. Born under a Bleeding Star- Bloodraven/Sea Star. Reborn in Asshai under salt and smoke as Melisandre. (Also the last person Mel would suspect of being Azor Ahai).

Bloodraven strikes me as the Last Hero who ventured North of the Wall in search of the Magic of the Children. Who then became the Night's King serving for 13 years as L.C. and possibly the 995th (9+9-5+13). Who sacrifices children through the Blackgate (Bran, Jojen, and Meera) and had a corpse bride of sorts, Shiera Seastar. 

[Myrish Lace]

 

4 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

though how would that square with the Fot7's stance against slavery?

The same way it would square with the Fot7's stance against:

- prostitution

- gambling

- incest

- kinslaying

-homosexuality

and many, many other things. As long as Corbrays weren't flaunting their transgressions or had enough political clout to have them overlooked, they would be fine, just like modern Westerosi with pull and guile routinely disregard Faith's teachings. With Valyrians breathing down everyone's necks, opportunistic warlords would have even more motivation to betray their fellows - whether through illicit slave trade, open support of Andal groups collaborating with Valyrian Empire the way Germanic tribes collaborated with Rome against their fellows...

And Corbrays of that era are shown as ruthless, brutal and completely amoral: House Corbray is established as such by a member of Andal warband who betrayed their First Man employer, had him tortured and murdered. After that first Corbray "took" poor sod's daughter to wife.

[Free Northman Reborn]

6 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Well one possible time frame for the Manderly's is 700 years ago, 1000 years ago, and 1300 years ago.

If Manderly's took the Wolf Den in 400AC When House Hoare took the Iron Islands. 

and about 1000AC-1400AC is when the Rape of the Three Sisters roughly took place, the War of the Waters roughly begins, and House Grey Iron take controll of the Iron Isles roughly around this time. Gives enough rough time for the Andals to sweep from East to West, to have taken the Reach before Manderly's went North, and Theon Stark just at the start of it all right before the Grey Iron's took controll, making it possible for Theon to have fought Harrag Hoare on the declining years of the Iron Born under driftwood kings.

This is a slight crunch, but not really if we use Manderly's as a rough dating as they are said to have held the Wolf Den for 1000 years with a slide between 700 years to 1300 years. So anything dubbing 1000 years or 2000 years, is subject to this same slide.

As far as Theon's placement in the tomb to Brandon the Burner is that one side of the wall runs through the lords and most recent kings, with the opposite wall, starting near Torhhen, would pick up with the Kings on that side. So near, Torrhen should be both Lords and Kings. Theoretically. 

Best i got

Edit- So we'll say roughly

1700BC- Theon Stark vs Harrag Hoare and raises Inner Walls of Winterfell.

1400-1000Bc-  Jon Stark builds the Wolf's Den, House Grey Iron rule in Iron isles, and Falcon Crown roughly forged under Ser Artys Arryn, Mathos Arryn following within century or two.

400BC- House Manderly take Wolf's Den after Andals Sweep across the Reach, House Hoare take Iron Isles.

Jon Stark built the Wolf’s Den long before Theon Stark’s time. The Wolf’s Den is explicitly stated in the World Book to have been built even before the Andals came to Westeros. By contrast, Theon lived during the height of the Andal invasion.

Also, Jon Stark’s son Rickard the Laughing Wolf conquered the Neck, and we know that the Boltons were the last bannermen to bow to Winterfel. Therefore, Rickard lived before the Boltons bent the knee. And we further know that the Boltons knelt when the first Andals were crossing the Narrow Sea in their longships. We are also given a long chronology of the Wolf’s Den, which shows a long history of Starks amd other houses holding the Castle for centuries before pirates from the Three Sisters captured it (kicking off the War Across the Water).

So we know the order was:

Jon Stark (long before the Andal invasion)

His son Rickard (still long before the Andal invasion)

Then some time after that, the Boltons kneel as the Andal invasion begins

A few centuries pass as the Andals conquer the Vale and the Arryns take the Falcon Crown.

Then a number of Arryn Kings reign before Mathos II Arryn joins the War Across the Water.

This lasts for many centuries.

Later, Edrick Sbowbeard grows old and feeble and allows Slavers from the Stepstones to capture the Wolfs Den, but his son Brandon Ice Eyes captures it back.

And sometime after this the Manderlys arrive and build White Harbor. Three dates are given for the Manderly arrival.

900 years ago by Lord Borrel who seems to dislike them amd try to disparage them as newcomers to the North. 1000 years ago by one of Jon/Bran/Maester Luwin in one of the early books as a kind of history lesson. And 1300 years ago by the Manderlys themselves.

None of the three options refer to the 700 years ago date you suggested. I would go for the middle ground of around 1000 years ago, which also fits with Lord Borrel’s dating of the Rape of the Sisters 2000 years ago and the supposed 1000-year war that followed until White Harbor was built.

So what fits with all of the above (very roughly of course):

3000BC or earlier - Jon Stark builds the Wolf’s den

3000BC (plus one generation) - His son Rickard conquers the Neck

(Stark younger sons, cadet branches and other Houses rule the Den for many centuries)

2500BC - Boltons kneel and first small Andal adventuring parties start crossing the Narrow Sea

2200BC - Artys Arryn conquers the Vale

1700BC - Theon Stark defeats Argos Sevenstar, builds a fleet and invades Andalos. While he is away with his main strength, pirates from the Three Sisters opportunistically (and very foolishly) capture the Wolfs Den.

Returning from Andalos with his warfleet, Theon invades the Sisters and wreaks a bloody vengeance. He executes 3000 Sistermen warriors in a single day, and lets his loyal vassal Balthasar Bolton make a Pink Pavillion out of the skins of 100 Sistermen.

The Sistermen run to the Arryns for help, and King Matthos Arryn sets sail for the Sisters (against his wife’s advice), with 100 longships packed with soldiers. He was facing no ordinary Stark, however, but the Hungry Wolf himself. Not only is the Arryn force defeated, and Mathos himself slain, but Theon then proceeds to invade the Vale itself by landing an army in the Fingers. He conquers parts of the Arryn kingdom (later lost by his sons), but is forced to return North to deal with a revolt in the Rills and Ironborn invasions on his West coast, as is ever the case with a Stark King who ventures beyond his own borders.

1300BC (rough guess) - Edrick Snowbeard grows old and feeble and Slavers from the Stepstones capture the Wolfsden. His great grandson Brandon Ice Eyes hangs their entrails from Heart Trees in response.

Around 700BC (1000 years ago) - the Manderlys arrive and build White Harbor.

Around 300BC - Brandon the Shipwright sails off into the Sunset Sea and his son burns the northern fleet.

Thats a rough timeline that makes sense.

[AlaskanSandman]

31 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Jon Stark built the Wolf’s Den long before Theon Stark’s time. The Wolf’s Den is explicitly stated in the World Book to have been built even before the Andals came to Westeros. By contrast, Theon lived during the height of the Andal invasion.

Also, Jon Stark’s son Rickard the Laughing Wolf conquered the Neck, and we know that the Boltons were the last bannermen to bow to Winterfel. Therefore, Rickard lived before the Boltons bent the knee. And we further know that the Boltons knelt when the first Andals were crossing the Narrow Sea in their longships. We are also given a long chronology of the Wolf’s Den, which shows a long history of Starks amd other houses holding the Castle for centuries before pirates from the Three Sisters captured it (kicking off the War Across the Water).

So we know the order was:

Jon Stark (long before the Andal invasion)

His son Rickard (still long before the Andal invasion)

Then some time after that, the Boltons kneel as the Andal invasion begins

A few centuries pass as the Andals conquer the Vale and the Arryns take the Falcon Crown.

Then a number of Arryn Kings reign before Mathos II Arryn joins the War Across the Water.

This lasts for many centuries.

Later, Edrick Sbowbeard grows old and feeble and allows Slavers from the Stepstones to capture the Wolfs Den, but his son Brandon Ice Eyes captures it back.

And sometime after this the Manderlys arrive and build White Harbor. Three dates are given for the Manderly arrival.

900 years ago by Lord Borrel who seems to dislike them amd try to disparage them as newcomers to the North. 1000 years ago by one of Jon/Bran/Maester Luwin in one of the early books as a kind of history lesson. And 1300 years ago by the Manderlys themselves.

None of the three options refer to the 700 years ago date you suggested. I would go for the middle ground of around 1000 years ago, which also fits with Lord Borrel’s dating of the Rape of the Sisters 2000 years ago and the supposed 1000-year war that followed until White Harbor was built.

So what fits with all of the above (very roughly of course):

3000BC or earlier - Jon Stark builds the Wolf’s den

3000BC (plus one generation) - His son Rickard conquers the Neck

(Stark younger sons, cadet branches and other Houses rule the Den for many centuries)

2500BC - Boltons kneel and first small Andal adventuring parties start crossing the Narrow Sea

2200BC - Artys Arryn conquers the Vale

1700BC - Theon Stark defeats Argos Sevenstar, builds a fleet and invades Andalos. While he is away with his main strength, pirates from the Three Sisters opportunistically (and very foolishly) capture the Wolfs Den.

Returning from Andalos with his warfleet, Theon invades the Sisters and wreaks a bloody vengeance. He executes 3000 Sistermen warriors in a single day, and lets his loyal vassal Balthasar Bolton make a Pink Pavillion out of the skins of 100 Sistermen.

The Sistermen run to the Arryns for help, and King Matthos Arryn sets sail for the Sisters (against his wife’s advice), with 100 longships packed with soldiers. He was facing no ordinary Stark, however, but the Hungry Wolf himself. Not only is the Arryn force defeated, and Mathos himself slain, but Theon then proceeds to invade the Vale itself by landing an army in the Fingers. He conquers parts of the Arryn kingdom (later lost by his sons), but is forced to return North to deal with a revolt in the Rills and Ironborn invasions on his West coast, as is ever the case with a Stark King who ventures beyond his own borders.

1300BC (rough guess) - Edrick Snowbeard grows old and feeble and Slavers from the Stepstones capture the Wolfsden. His great grandson Brandon Ice Eyes hangs their entrails from Heart Trees in response.

Around 700BC (1000 years ago) - the Manderlys arrive and build White Harbor.

Around 300BC - Brandon the Shipwright sails off into the Sunset Sea and his son burns the northern fleet.

Thats a rough timeline that makes sense.

He say's no more than 900, meaning 800 is fair guess. And i think your reaching with the Wolf's Den at almost 2000 years old before Manderly's receive it. Maybe 1000 years old. but your pushing it with 2000. Its safe to assume many of the houses didn't hold it for long. One was 500, one was 200 and one at least 100. The rest didn't likely hold it that long, and judging by Harrenhal, we can see how quickly a place can pass hands.

And i would definitely bet the Inner Walls of Winterfell were raised before subduing the North, else wise, your vulnerable af. Which was 2000 years ago. Very doubtful that the Wolf's Den was raised before the Inner Walls of Winterfell. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

19 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

He say's no more than 900, meaning 800 is fair guess. And i think your reaching with the Wolf's Den at almost 2000 years old. Maybe 1000 years old. but your pushing it with 2000. Its safe to assume many of the houses didn't hold it for long. One was 500, one was 200 and one at least 100. The rest didn't likely hold it that long, and judging by Harrenhal, we can see how quickly a place can pass hands.

And i would definitely bet the Inner Walls of Winterfell were raised before subduing the North, else wise, your vulnerable af. Which was 2000 years ago. Very doubtful that the Wolf's Den was raised before the Inner Walls of Winterfell. 

I’m not following your line of argument. It is self contradicting. Are you disputing the explicit statement from the World Book that Jon Stark built the Wolfs Den before the arrival of the Andals? 

Similarly, you yourself place Theon Stark at around 2000 years ago. And we know he lived during the Andal invasion. Hence, he had to live after Jon Stark built the Wolfs Den.

And Jon Stark had to live before the Boltons knelt. And in turn, Artys Arryn lived many years after the first Andals crossed the Narrow Sea, and Matthos II at least a few centuries after Artys.

As for Winterfell’s current Walls, there were dozens of walls before the current walls, going back to the Long Night itself. 

[AlaskanSandman]

2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I’m not following your line of argument. It is self contradicting. Are you disputing the explicit statement from the World Book that Jon Stark built the Wolfs Den before the arrival of the Andals? 

Similarly, you yourself place Theon Stark at around 2000 years ago. And we know he lived during the Andal invasion. Hence, he had to live after Jon Stark built the Wolfs Den.

And Jon Stark had to live before the Boltons knelt. And in turn, Artys Arryn lived many years after the first Andals crossed the Narrow Sea, and Matthos II at least a few centuries after Artys.

As for Winterfell’s current Walls, there were dozens of walls before the current walls, going back to the Long Night itself. 

Well it just deleted my whole response. But long and short, you assume alot!!!!!

Winterfells walls would be raised once, that's just ridiculous. It clearly says the inner walls raised 2000 years ago and outter walls under Edrik. Even if the wall was damaged in a siege, you dont  tear the whole thing down, you just fix it. So no, it was raised once lol but i guess the builders get to say that they're the ones who raised the Ice wall since they repair it.

And no we dont know Theon lived during the main Andal invasion in which Ser Artys Arryn was a part of. Or that the Arryns came in the (One wave as you make it sound). The book clearly states that they came 8000, 6000, and or 2000 years ago. So they either came in waves, or some of these were't Andals. As the Vikings invaded England in waves and for years before actually invading and making it home, it's not unreasonable to assume the same hear. Again though, these may not all be Andals. Might be Valyrians coming for slaves and explain why they never invaded, they didn't care to till Aegon I. Or if they did, it was a slow burn plan that required priming Westeros first. 

As that is actually the point of this thread, to try to examine Valyrian activity in the North, not an actual handle on the exact order of the kings or prove how right any one is. 

And which Andal wave did Jon build the Wolfs Den against? Again, you assume alot and act like it's fact.

You ignore the dating of the Falcon crown cause it doesnt' work in your "argument" and also ignore the Inner Walls of Winterfell among other things.

You also seem to act like the Andals only invaded the Vale and worked outwards from there. Never having invaded the Crown Lands or Storm Lands. You have no idea which group took the Reach. Was it the wave coming from the vale? or from Storm Lands? It is more than possible that the Andals landed in the Vale way before the Arryns. Then, the Reach could've been taken by the Andals before Aryts was even born. 

 

[AlaskanSandman]

5 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I’m not following your line of argument. It is self contradicting. Are you disputing the explicit statement from the World Book that Jon Stark built the Wolfs Den before the arrival of the Andals? 

Similarly, you yourself place Theon Stark at around 2000 years ago. And we know he lived during the Andal invasion. Hence, he had to live after Jon Stark built the Wolfs Den.

And Jon Stark had to live before the Boltons knelt. And in turn, Artys Arryn lived many years after the first Andals crossed the Narrow Sea, and Matthos II at least a few centuries after Artys.

As for Winterfell’s current Walls, there were dozens of walls before the current walls, going back to the Long Night itself. 

 

Quote

 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Westerlands

 

That was when the golden-haired rogue called Lann the Clever appeared from out of the east. Some say he was an Andal adventurer from across the narrow sea, though this was millennia before the coming of the Andals to Westeros. Regardless of his origins, the tales agree that somehow Lann the Clever winkled the Casterlys out of their Rock and took it for his own.

 

 

 

So was Lann an Andal? Valyrian? Or of the Empire of the Dawn?

He's obviously not of the FM. 

He's associated with Garth and House Gardener is linked to Valyrians by way of legend. So either the Valyrian's were in Westeros, or the Andals came in waves. And or, the Andals are just Valyrian families that were not dragon riders. Take your pic, but one of these has to be the case, or else the Maesters are crazy. 

[Back door hodor]

10 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 

 

 

So was Lann an Andal? Valyrian? Or of the Empire of the Dawn?

He's obviously not of the FM. 

He's associated with Garth and House Gardener is linked to Valyrians by way of legend. So either the Valyrian's were in Westeros, or the Andals came in waves. And or, the Andals are just Valyrian families that were not dragon riders. Take your pic, but one of these has to be the case, or else the Maesters are crazy. 

Well some of the houses in the narrow sea are definitely non dragon riding Valyrains, confirmed in main series and world book...so you are definitely right about early Valyrain contact with Westeros in general and waves of migration,  but specific dates and events are very hard to pin down

[AlaskanSandman]

10 minutes ago, Back door hodor said:

Well some of the houses in the narrow sea are definitely non dragon riding Valyrains, confirmed in main series and world book...so you are definitely right about early Valyrain contact with Westeros in general and waves of migration,  but specific dates and events are very hard to pin down

Agreed! That's why i think we should all stay a lil open minded, my self included. GRRM went out of his way to lay clues, but counter clues as well. Then there are mistakes he didn't mean hahaha deciding which is which is enough to go bonkers, and all is in good fun any ways. I wanna believe it's one of Martin's little games though, as he loves riddles and would post riddles for people to solve. So part of me still hopes its a riddle we are meant to solve. I my self think it's something to do with Bael, and quite possible Rhaegar and Jon. (Which i like to think Mance is his father). What ever happened though, i think is tied to Bael, and Valyria's activity in the North.

So far as i can tell, Bloodraven went North and possibly fathered two bastards, Craster and Mance. Mance went on to father Jon on Lyanna. The blue rose coming down some how through all of this imo. As the Winter Rose is a rare rose that only grows in the garden's of winterfell so far as we know. So how did Rhaegar get the roses? Could Mance have given him back Dark Sister? In exchange Mance would step down from the Tournament? Im not sure there. 

Bloodraven strikes me as the Last Hero and the Night's King.  He went north of the wall in seek of the children's magic with a sword (Dark sister), 12 companions (raven's group) and a dog (where did the Mother of the direwolves come from?). He was L.C. of the watch for 13 years, and possibly the 995th L.C. (9+9-5=13), the 13th L.C. who had a corpse bride (Shiera SeaStar), and sacrificed children through the Black Gate (Bran, Jojen, and Meera). Bran tells us of the Night's King before passing beneath the Black Gate, to meet Bloodraven on ch13 of ADWD Bran Pov 2.

Melisandre is Azor Ahai (And the last person she would suspect). Born under a Bleeding Star (Blood, Star. Bloodraven=SeaStar.), reborn from Melony to Melisandre in Asshai under the salt and smoke of Asshai.

Before Bloodraven though, we possibly have Queen Alysanne hooking up with (a Stark?) at Queen's Crown. Gael the Winterchild? Her 13th child?

And long before Alysanne, possibly during the time of Hardhome and when Valyria take Dragonstone. We have Bael the Bard hooking up with a Stark to put his blood in their family. Bael is spelled Valyrian.

We have Maege Mormont in our current story with a daughter Alysane and Lyanna. 

And we have Jon Snow dying on his 13th pov chapter. 

What does it all mean. I have no idea lol There are still legends to consider. Like Galladon stealing the daughter of the gods (Mother and father of the faith), the Maiden. Galladon also had a magic sword. We have Durran stealing the daughter of the gods and she was doomed to die  a mortals death. Then we have Azor Ahai, who stabbed his wife in the heart (metaphorically? or literally?) to create light bringer (dragons, or a sword?).

Was the crown of rare roses only from the north, a pact? an insult? a mark of death? Or nothing really, no more than Loras giving Sansa a rose, to be taken later by Baelish instead of Loras. Is this a clue. Is Rhaegar innocent? Maybe Rhaegar wanted Ashara, not Lyanna. If we could understand Queen's crown better, maybe we could understand the Tower of Joy better. Or maybe Sansa's tale hold's the clue.

Anyways, that's my valyrian activity of note so far that spirals out of all of this, but Valyria coming for slaves may be part of the story. As you say though, things are hard to pin down.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Anyway, the historical timeline and related matters interest me greatly, but once things descend to  “Daario is Rhaegar” or “Mance is Jon’s father”, I’m out.