Is Jon to blame? #NotMyKing

[AlaskanSandman]

Is Jon to blame by us or the Watch for allowing the Wildlings and sworn enemy to pass? When the decision comes from "King" Stannis. Does this conflict with their vows and staying out of southern affairs?

 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon XI

Jon had come to that same realization. "As you say, Your Grace." He wondered where this king, was going.

"Whilst your brothers have been struggling to decide who shall lead them, I have been speaking with this Mance Rayder." He ground his teeth. "A stubborn man, that one, and prideful. He will leave me no choice but to give him to the flames. But we took other captives as well, other leaders. The one who calls himself the Lord of Bones, some of their clan chiefs, the new Magnar of Thenn. Your brothers will not like it, no more than your father's lords, but I mean to allow the wildlings through the Wall . . . those who will swear me their fealty, pledge to keep the king's peace and the king's laws, and take the Lord of Light as their god. Even the giants, if those great knees of theirs can bend. I will settle them on the Gift, once I have wrested it away from your new Lord Commander. When the cold winds rise, we shall live or die together. It is time we made alliance against our common foe." He looked at Jon. "Would you agree?"

"My father dreamed of resettling the Gift," Jon admitted. "He and my uncle Benjen used to talk of it." He never thought of settling it with wildlings, though . . . but he never rode with wildlings, either. He did not fool himself; the free folk would make for unruly subjects and dangerous neighbors. Yet when he weighed Ygritte's red hair against the cold blue eyes of the wights, the choice was easy. "I agree."

The Night's Watch takes no part in the affairs of the South, but what happens when a king or a queen comes to the Wall? What happens when they order the Wildlings through the wall and settled in the gift?

Well, what happens when a queen comes North and orders land handed over to the Watch as the New Gift? Or orders the Night's Watched closed and a new castle built? Or orders the Lords and Nights Watch to end first Night? What would have happened if Alysanne had ordered the Wildlings through the Wall and settled in the gift? 
 

Would the Lord Commander fight said King or Queen? Resist? To what end? What if violence is threatened against the Watch? Does the Lord Commander have the right? His castles don't defend against the southern lords. 

Should Jon defy Stannis and refuse? What then? Would Stannis give Jon to the flames? Would there be war? Is it in Jon's power to obey the King, and or defy the King? How so, when you cannot defend your self against any king inflicting his will?

 

Edit- Im personally greatly interested in how Benjen and Eddard planned to settle the gift

Edit, Edit- This post in no way is questioning the reason's Jon was stabbed, which were for leading a group to Winterfell to rescue his sister. 

[Mat92]

I'm a little confused to the title of the post - is Jon to blame for what? It seems like you've asked multiple questions regarding the authority of the watch/Lord Commander vs King/Queen.

My answer would be that as the NW takes no sides, they also shouldn't have enemies within Westeros, so there's no reason they should not be allowed to take anyone in - especially people that just stopped a wildling invasion and saved your lives. 

I'm not sure how much authority the King/Queen has over the NW. Surely the NW has to abide by the most general laws of the realm and those I guess are set or enforced by the person ruling, but they certainly have a sense of independence to them. I would say a part of this comes from the fact that most of Westeros (aside from most of the North) kinda ignores them and thinks they're a joke of sorts. 

The NW taking in Stannis is fine in my books, especially considering their dire circumstances at the time. It would be less fine if say Cersei or Lannister men showed up and they were turned away. Different story. 

 

Hopefully that answers some of your questions?

[AlaskanSandman]

56 minutes ago, Mat92 said:

I'm a little confused to the title of the post - is Jon to blame for what? It seems like you've asked multiple questions regarding the authority of the watch/Lord Commander vs King/Queen.

My answer would be that as the NW takes no sides, they also shouldn't have enemies within Westeros, so there's no reason they should not be allowed to take anyone in - especially people that just stopped a wildling invasion and saved your lives. 

I'm not sure how much authority the King/Queen has over the NW. Surely the NW has to abide by the most general laws of the realm and those I guess are set or enforced by the person ruling, but they certainly have a sense of independence to them. I would say a part of this comes from the fact that most of Westeros (aside from most of the North) kinda ignores them and thinks they're a joke of sorts. 

The NW taking in Stannis is fine in my books, especially considering their dire circumstances at the time. It would be less fine if say Cersei or Lannister men showed up and they were turned away. Different story. 

 

Hopefully that answers some of your questions?

For allowing the Wildlings and sworn enemies of the watch to cross the wall which is in breech of the Night's Watch purpose so far as they see it. Sorry, thought that was obvious from the quote. Ill fix that in a bit

And yes, from there the discussions and questions go into the obligations of the Watch versus commands from a southern lord.

Its not taking in Stannis that's the problem, its Jon allowing Stannis to force them to allow the enemy through the wall and settle in the gift. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

My take is that the whole purpose of Jon’s story in Dance is to show that these decisions are never clear-cut. It seems quite straight forward to say “the Nights Watch takes no part”, but the realities that Jon faced showed that the reality is not so easy.

He could refuse to let the Wildlings cross, and make the case that to let them would be to go against the purpose of the NW, at the same time he knows the reality is that it is the Others they need to stop, not the Wildlings. He could have frozen Stannis out completely, saying he would take no side, but the reality was that he needed Stannis, and even if he didn’t, he wasn’t really in a position to resist him (too much).

The point is that there's no one answer. He was walking a fine line, and therefore may have crossed it once or twice.

[AlaskanSandman]

56 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

My take is that the whole purpose of Jon’s story in Dance is to show that these decisions are never clear-cut. It seems quite straight forward to say “the Nights Watch takes no part”, but the realities that Jon faced showed that the reality is not so easy.

He could refuse to let the Wildlings cross, and make the case that to let them would be to go against the purpose of the NW, at the same time he knows the reality is that it is the Others they need to stop, not the Wildlings. He could have frozen Stannis out completely, saying he would take no side, but the reality was that he needed Stannis, and even if he didn’t, he wasn’t really in a position to resist him (too much).

The point is that there's no one answer. He was walking a fine line, and therefore may have crossed it once or twice.

Thats kind of my point, and given there are no walls to defend against southern lords or kings, it seems any king or lord with enough force can simply enforce what ever will upon them that they want. Like in the case of Queen Alysanne. Who angered Northern lords supposedly with her actions. Yet the watch was glad to receive her aid. Did this not come with punishment from the Starks or other lords? And what excuse did the Watch have in Alysanne's time? 

 

And who did Benjen and Eddard plan of filling the Gift with??? Southern Lords? What people were they going to sprout from the ground in the North? The wildlings?

The Gift is for the Watch. This is land beyond the New Gift. This is quite the thing for Eddard and ranger Benjen to be dreaming about

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

8 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Like in the case of Queen Alysanne. Who angered Northern lords supposedly with her actions. Yet the watch was glad to receive her aid. Did this not come with punishment from the Starks or other lords? And what excuse did the Watch have in Alysanne's time? 

From what I recall, the Stark wasn’t happy, but acquiesced, and even claimed he was in favour of the gift all along, because of the popularity of the NW in the North.  

9 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And who did Benjen and Eddard plan of filling the Gift with??? Southern Lords? What people were they going to sprout from the ground in the North? The wildlings?

Second sons and bastards of Northern lords? Petty lords promised much larger lands? Lords could always be found. As to populating it, all you need to do is promise land to anyone who is willing to move there, and plenty of people would take the offer.

[rotting sea cow]

13 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And who did Benjen and Eddard plan of filling the Gift with??? Southern Lords? What people were they going to sprout from the ground in the North? The wildlings?

The Gift is for the Watch. This is land beyond the New Gift. This is quite the thing for Eddard and ranger Benjen to be dreaming about 

I think this part deserves its own thread. Yes, it is implied that Ned wanted the New Gift back and repopulate it. Since Ned had King Robert's favour, it could have worked.  How, it is up for speculation.

[AlaskanSandman]

2 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

From what I recall, the Stark wasn’t happy, but acquiesced, and even claimed he was in favour of the gift all along, because of the popularity of the NW in the North.  

Second sons and bastards of Northern lords? Petty lords promised much larger lands? Lords could always be found. As to populating it, all you need to do is promise land to anyone who is willing to move there, and plenty of people would take the offer.

I dont recall being given that much information into the Stark response, other than they yielded it up. Though i may just be forgetting something.

and what people? Move people from White Harbor? Dreadfort? etc. Who is going to want to move up by the wall where wildlings raid and carry off women? And to what end? why populate those lands? They were given to the watch to farm and subsidize them selves. Idk, seems a big thing to do from all sides of the fence. Maybe im wrong.

[AlaskanSandman]

3 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

I think this part deserves its own thread. Yes, it is implied that Ned wanted the New Gift back and repopulate it. Since Ned had King Robert's favour, it could have worked.  How, it is up for speculation.

Well Jon say's the Gift, meaning Eddard was going to populate right up to the Wall apparently which i wonder about him having taking any steps into putting this into motion. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

Just now, AlaskanSandman said:

and what people? Move people from White Harbor? Dreadfort? etc. Who is going to want to move up by the wall where wildlings raid and carry off women? And to what end? why populate those lands? They were given to the watch to farm and subsidize them selves. Idk, seems a big thing to do from all sides of the fence. Maybe im wrong.

If a declaration was put out saying “move to the Gift, and you’ll get land” I’d expect many landless and poor people to take that offer up. It’s not about corralling people and sending them there. Settlements like that have happened throughout history, often in extremely inhospitable places.

The idea was that the Gift would be populated by new lords, but they would be paying their dues to the Watch. That’s why Benjen thought Joer would be persuaded of the idea.

Of course, I don’t know any of this, it’s all speculation.

[AlaskanSandman]

1 minute ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

If a declaration was put out saying “move to the Gift, and you’ll get land” I’d expect many landless and poor people to take that offer up. It’s not about corralling people and sending them there. Settlements like that have happened throughout history, often in extremely inhospitable places.

The idea was that the Gift would be populated by new lords, but they would be paying their dues to the Watch. That’s why Benjen thought Joer would be persuaded of the idea.

Of course, I don’t know any of this, it’s all speculation.

What about the wildling threat?

and i like speculation haha

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

2 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

What about the wildling threat?

If you're living in poverty with no land you might role the dice, particularly if there was the promised protection of new lords with soldiers.

Homesteaders in the US went out into the wilderness, with all its dangers, for precisely that reason.

[AlaskanSandman]

1 minute ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

If you're living in poverty with no land you might role the dice, particularly if there was the promised protection of new lords with soldiers.

Homesteaders in the US went out into the wilderness, with all its dangers, for precisely that reason.

Maybe. Do you think Eddard could churn up as many people as Jon and Stannis will be filling the lands with the wildlings? Least of all in his life time? What financial incentive is there in going to the gift for people? Where are you going to make money? Trading with who? Who is going to help pay for your new farms and or castles? Or was Eddard just going to let them figure that out when they got there? Poor people aside from lacking funds, tend to lack education and such too.

What's more, what's going to keep these people there that didn't keep them there the last time. Like when Queen's Crown was abandoned sometime after Alysanne. Did Roberts Rebellion leave the North in an uptick in population or something?

Just asking questions, hearing thoughts

[AlaskanSandman]

16 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

If you're living in poverty with no land you might role the dice, particularly if there was the promised protection of new lords with soldiers.

Homesteaders in the US went out into the wilderness, with all its dangers, for precisely that reason.

When did Northern lords become so friendly with their mountain clans as opposed to the Vale? 

Could "The Ned" have pulled a move similar to Tyrion at some point? Lets not forget that Tyrion was in the Winterfell libraries. 

It seems to me that the lands of the Gift would seem most promising and even wanted, by the Wildlings. Though this is mere speculation from me

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

16 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

What's more, what's going to keep these people there that didn't keep them there the last time.

The reason the Gift got depopulated is because the Nights Watch shrank to the point that it was unable to defend people against raids. I imagine the key difference is that new lords, meaning new military strength, would defend them.

[AlaskanSandman]

8 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

The reason the Gift got depopulated is because the Nights Watch shrank to the point that it was unable to defend people against raids. I imagine the key difference is that new lords, meaning new military strength, would defend them.

Hmmm. Interesting.

Tracing other things here. Just interesting cause the Night's Watch is known to have had more men under Qorgyle and had more patrols along the wall.

Tracing Northern activity. Qorgyle is L.C. in question as father of Mance as only one with authority to really allow Mance as child of a Black Brother to be raised by the Watch. Infraction of the vows and all.

Before Qorgyle is an unknown and unlisted L.C. around when Daenys Mallister became commander of the Shadow Tower where Mance later serves at. 

Before him is Bloodraven who came to the Wall with an army at his back who willingly took the Watch to follow him. Allowing Bloodraven to essentially take over the Watch. 200 men is a lot of votes in your favor. 

Im not sure what it all means yet, just trying to find the missing bits and see what it adds up to.

[Euron III Greyjoy]

This whole "Is Jon to blame?" debate has been asked so many times, and like most things in ASOIAF, I don't really think there's a clear answer.

I personally don't see the problem with bringing wildlings South of the Wall, considering they're not the real enemy that the Watch was built for. I'd say the only thing Jon technically is at fault for is trying to save his sister from Ramsay, a sadistic psychopath, but that's pretty much one of the main points of ASOIAF, that no one is this perfect saint who follows the rules 24/7. Its easy for us to shit on Jon when we are sitting on our comfy beds, sipping on our favourite drink, and basking in the rays of the sun, but if I where in Jon's place I would absolutely try to save my sister. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

1 minute ago, EloImFizzy said:

Its easy for us to shit on Jon when we are sitting on our comfy beds, sipping on our favourite drink, and basking in the rays of the sun,

Why is your bed outside?

 

[Euron III Greyjoy]

5 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Why is your bed outside?

 

Well I cant speak for everyone of course, but I do have a window in my bedroom. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

1 minute ago, EloImFizzy said:

Well I cant speak for everyone of course, but I do have a window in my bedroom. 

Luxury, bloody luxury.