Heresy 214 The Last Heretic

[St Daga]

5 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

There are many skin changers north of the Wall. Various animals have made bonds with humans: boars, bears and snow bears, shadow cats, goats, dogs, eagles, crows, ravens, sea lions, walruses, spotted whales, and cranes. Are they all magical creatures also? Being extinct is not an indication of magic - just that a certain group of animals has died out due to loss of habitat or over hunting.

I think the six direwolves that were gifted to the Stark children are magical, different than most animals that are used as familiars. And if you are extinct, and we have no idea if direwolves are extinct or not, as we have no one who claims to have seen one (Yes, Benjen says he hears them on rangings, but I question if he is hearing them physically or metaphyscially). The eye color indicates to me that something is going on with all six of them. Wolves might have yellow or golden eyes, but the descriptions of them all having heat-type descriptors is unusual, I think. In my opinion it connects them to the magic of the CotF. So, if they were as extinct as the dragons, then their birth is rather magical. I am not saying this is what is going on for certain, but I certainly think it's possible.

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

IMO, animals that can be skin-changed are more about the magical properties and abilities of the human than the choice of animal. I would list skinchangers along side dragons and white walkers as magical beings.

Do you think that makes the Targaryen's magical, too? In the way they are able to bond with their dragons? 

If the Stark children all were born with a warg/skinchanger like gene or gift, why do we get no indication of this before the direwolves arrive? Varamyr tells us that dogs are easy, and he certainly bonded with his families dogs at a young age. The Stark children seem to have no special connection with any of the dogs at Winterfell. That is one of the reasons that I question it was the coming of the direwolves that awakened the gift in the Stark children. 

Now, I am not saying that the Stark's don't have a genetic link that makes warging a possibility for them, I just think it's odd that we hear of no connections made before this. Perhaps they just didn't understand what was going on, but even Varamyr, as a child with no teaching, was aware of his connections with his families dogs.

I find it very interesting that we hear of no skinchangers north of the wall that have bonded with a direwolf. That seems odd if direwolves are running around north of the wall. No sightings and no bondings, that we are told about. That is why I question just how many direwolves still exist in the world at the start of the story.

[Melifeather]

15 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Well, there is no doubt that dragons have a higher internal temperature than other animals, therefore their blood is hotter. That doesn't mean it's not blood. It just means that their blood is hotter than the air temperature, which creates the impression of smoke. Now, dragons are incredibly special in the fact that they can produce flame, but I don't think this means their blood is anything other than very hot blood! The blood might change colors, like the flame does for each dragon. Of course these animals are magic, and I am not trying to say they are not. But I think blood is blood, it just varies greatly in temperature in these creatures.

Sure, I get it. It means that your breath is warmer than the air temperature, or perhaps your blood or what ever else might be seeping from your body. And yes, it could appear to be smoke. But it's not really smoke! It's vapor. I agree!

When the air temperature is closer to body temperature, we don't see this. It takes an extreme difference in temperature for this to happen.  My point was that it is interesting that the same description is used for Small Paul and the Other: the word used is smoke! Same word used for Drogon's "smoking" blood, but it might be just that Drogon's blood is so much hotter than the air temperature, it gives the impression of smoke? But perhaps it's just vapor?

 

The white walkers have blood also: 

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 And then he was stumbling forward, falling more than running, really, closing his eyes and shoving the dagger blindly out before him with both hands. He heard a crack, like the sound ice makes when it breaks beneath a man’s foot, and then a screech so shrill and sharp that he went staggering backward with his hands over his muffled ears, and fell hard on his arse.

   When he opened his eyes the Other’s armor was running down its legs in rivulets as pale blue blood hissed and steamed around the black dragonglass dagger in its throat. It reached down with two bone-white hands to pull out the knife, but where its fingers touched the obsidian they smoked.

   Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too. Finally only the dragonglass dagger remained, wreathed in steam as if it were alive and sweating. Grenn bent to scoop it up and flung it down again at once. "Mother, that's cold."

 

 

[St Daga]

5 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

All three creatures can be killed - almost instantly for the white walker if obsidian is used. It's much harder to kill a dragon. Drogon had a spear shoved down into the base of his neck and lived. During the Dance of the Dragons any dragons killed were killed by other dragons. There are historical stories of dragon slayers. For example, Ser Galladon of Morne slew a dragon with an enchanted sword, Just Maid, and Serwyn of the Mirror Shield slew a dragon by piercing it's eye with a spear. It's suspected that dragons can be killed with weirwood arrows, but we have yet to read confirmation of that. Robb's Grey Wind was shot through by crossbows and then beheaded.

We have at least the 5 dragons in the dragon pit that were killed by humans, with human weapons. It took a raging mob to do it, but they got the job done. And we have a couple dragons killed when their eye was pierced, either by arrow, spear or scorpion bolt, but I would say that the eye is a weak spot in a dragon. Still, human weapons are the cause of death in these cases. The dragons that were killed in the dragon pit were chained and caged and attacked by far greater numbers, which makes their deaths very similar to how Grey Wind died, actually! Lady died by Ned's hand and Ice, but we really don't know how he did the deed. Did he pierce her heart, did he behead her, did he cut her throat? My point is that any of these animals can be killed by men, if the circumstances are correct. Dragons are certainly going to be harder to kill, because of their size, their ability to make fire, and by their built in armor, but it can still be accomplished, and by a ragged mob with little training.

[Melifeather]

21 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I think the six direwolves that were gifted to the Stark children are magical, different than most animals that are used as familiars. And if you are extinct, and we have no idea if direwolves are extinct or not, as we have no one who claims to have seen one (Yes, Benjen says he hears them on rangings, but I question if he is hearing them physically or metaphyscially). The eye color indicates to me that something is going on with all six of them. Wolves might have yellow or golden eyes, but the descriptions of them all having heat-type descriptors is unusual, I think. In my opinion it connects them to the magic of the CotF. So, if they were as extinct as the dragons, then their birth is rather magical. I am not saying this is what is going on for certain, but I certainly think it's possible.

Do you think that makes the Targaryen's magical, too? In the way they are able to bond with their dragons? 

If the Stark children all were born with a warg/skinchanger like gene or gift, why do we get no indication of this before the direwolves arrive? Varamyr tells us that dogs are easy, and he certainly bonded with his families dogs at a young age. The Stark children seem to have no special connection with any of the dogs at Winterfell. That is one of the reasons that I question it was the coming of the direwolves that awakened the gift in the Stark children. 

Now, I am not saying that the Stark's don't have a genetic link that makes warging a possibility for them, I just think it's odd that we hear of no connections made before this. Perhaps they just didn't understand what was going on, but even Varamyr, as a child with no teaching, was aware of his connections with his families dogs.

I find it very interesting that we hear of no skinchangers north of the wall that have bonded with a direwolf. That seems odd if direwolves are running around north of the wall. No sightings and no bondings, that we are told about. That is why I question just how many direwolves still exist in the world at the start of the story.

The Stark children bonded with their direwolves, because they made them their pets. If they each had a particular dog as a pet they may have realized some type of connection. Varamyr did know he could skinchange the family dogs. It's implied the dogs killed his brother, because he was jealous of him.

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A child’s flesh, he thought, remembering Bump.

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Varamyr had died nine times before. He had died once from a spear thrust, once with a bear’s teeth in his throat, and once in a wash of blood as he brought forth a stillborn cub. He died his first death when he was only six, as his father’s axe crashed through his skull.

 

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So like a fool he’d waited, dreaming of Haggon and Bump and all the wrongs he had done in his long life,

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His own mother had abandoned him as well. She cried for Bump, but she never cried for me.

 

The Targaryens do have something in them that can connect or control dragons, but so do all of the other dragonlord families from Valyria. Is it really a bond, or do they have knowledge and experience handling dragons? Dany said this about Drogon:

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  Drogon roared. The sound filled the pit. A furnace wind engulfed her. The dragon’s long scaled neck stretched toward her. When his mouth opened, she could see bits of broken bone and charred flesh between his black teeth. His eyes were molten. I am looking into hell, but I dare not look away. She had never been so certain of anything. If I run from him, he will burn me and devour me.

That doesn't sound like much of a bond to me, and the dragons view Dany as their mother.

[Tucu]

11 minutes ago, St Daga said:

We have at least the 5 dragons in the dragon pit that were killed by humans, with human weapons. It took a raging mob to do it, but they got the job done. And we have a couple dragons killed when their eye was pierced, either by arrow, spear or scorpion bolt, but I would say that the eye is a weak spot in a dragon. Still, human weapons are the cause of death in these cases. The dragons that were killed in the dragon pit were chained and caged and attacked by far greater numbers, which makes their deaths very similar to how Grey Wind died, actually! Lady died by Ned's hand and Ice, but we really don't know how he did the deed. Did he pierce her heart, did he behead her, did he cut her throat? My point is that any of these animals can be killed by men, if the circumstances are correct. Dragons are certainly going to be harder to kill, because of their size, their ability to make fire, and by their built in armor, but it can still be accomplished, and by a ragged mob with little training.

Syrax was not chained when it decided to drop to the ground and fight the peasants from there. I like the idea that she was killed by what looks like a emergent shadow of The Warrior.

[St Daga]

6 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Othor and Jafer don't rot, because the temperatures are cold enough to keep their bodies frozen. Maybe their eyes turned blue because they were "touched" as you say, but they don't glow with a light until they're animated.

Something certainly changes in them once they are awake and animated. I don't think that they are noted for having any smell when Jon and Co found them, but when Jon is fighting Othor's wight, he notes a "queer and cold" smell that almost makes Jon gag.  And what ever wakes the wights outside the cave of the 3EC, Summer senses it before Bran notes a white mist has filled the air. No mention of the cold at that time, but it is growing darker. Summer must sense the same queer and cold smell that Jon and Ghost note. Perhaps that smell is only part of the wights once they are activated, too?

 

6 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

While GRRM has said he doesn't like fan fiction, I disagree that he gets frustrated with fan theories. Some Pig (Pretty Pig here on Westeros) got her post on Stan Lee "liked" by George himself on Facebook.  Some Pig has written a large collection of essays comparing ASOIAF characters to Marvel characters. 

I would say that GRRM is entertained by good fan theories, well thought out and well spoken, of which Pretty Pig is well noted for. She should be flattered to be so recognized. But not all fan theories fit the time, effort and thought process as Pretty Pig, and those more half-baked ideas or theories (that is probably where my tinfoil rests) are probably not as admired or appreciated by GRRM! And maybe frustrated was not the best word I could have used, but I would think GRRM is probably not as appreciative of some fan theories as he is some others!

[St Daga]

42 minutes ago, JNR said:

I think it's really even simpler than that. 

He is just weary of the bogus assumption the show and the books must be the same, so in writing TWOW, he is going to enjoy proving just how bogus an assumption that really has always been. 

Which doesn't mean he's changing his plans to troll the fans/  But he might drop tidbits here and there... say, in Fire and Blood... knowing the fans will interpret it to mean X (because it fits their theories or the show or both).  And really, it only means Y, a completely different thing, which was his plan all along. 

The piece you might want to read is here.  The money quote is this:

Thanks for posting the link. Interesting.

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• As he publicly acknowledged, GRRM decided to undertake a major undisclosed plot change in TWOW. Apparently this change proved more unwieldy than he anticipated and necessitated several tweaks in multiple storylines he had previously assumed wouldn’t need much revising.

• GRRM is adamant about not altering his story in reaction to the show, but has told people that TWOW will “toy with” some reader expectations that may result from watching the show.

 

Major plot change BUT not apparently r/t the show! It's hard to imagine that it is not in response to the show, but I guess it's GRRM's word against anyone else's. I have always doubted that he would have trusted his major plots and twists and conclusions to Dave and Dan. I am sure if he did, he sorely regrets that now!

[St Daga]

42 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The white walkers have blood also: 

Yes. I noted that in one of my above posts. I find it interesting that the blood is the same color as their eyes. Blue!

9 hours ago, St Daga said:

As to the Others, we have only one example of one being killed or melted. Interestingly enough, that Other kills Small Paul and Small Paul's blood seems to be smoking around the sword (perhaps this is because of the cold, but it's certainly an unusual choice of words that the author used). So when Sam kills the Other with the dragon glass blade, it appears that the Other's blood, which is apparently blue, seems to steam, but the when the Other touches the dragonglass blade, it's fingers seem to smoke.

I do find the concept of blue blood interesting, although we do have this information only from a panicked Samwell's POV. I have toyed with the idea of the blue blood, blue eyes, etc, could be tied in some way to the blue Shade of the Evening. But I can't work it out in my head so it remains just a random thought.

I have wondered about the different colors of blood, and if they could indicate a temperature or component in the blood that is supposed to be a hint to us! 

[St Daga]

30 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The Targaryens do have something in them that can connect or control dragons, but so do all of the other dragonlord families from Valyria. Is it really a bond, or do they have knowledge and experience handling dragons? Dany said this about Drogon:

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  Drogon roared. The sound filled the pit. A furnace wind engulfed her. The dragon’s long scaled neck stretched toward her. When his mouth opened, she could see bits of broken bone and charred flesh between his black teeth. His eyes were molten. I am looking into hell, but I dare not look away. She had never been so certain of anything. If I run from him, he will burn me and devour me.

That doesn't sound like much of a bond to me, and the dragons view Dany as their mother.

Yes, what Dany indicates almost sounds like a dominance issue. Someone needs to be the boss, and if it isn't the human, then they probably become BBQ. What I wonder about Dany's thoughts on this, is it instinct or is it something she was told? She says she is "certain" which hints to me that this is some instinct on her part.

But what she describes doesn't necessarily seem like it takes a certain genetic code that helps form the bond, it seems like it might just be a person who is ballsy enough to not back down from a fire breathing beast! So, it makes me wonder if it is a genetic connection in the Targaryen's, or not.

I don't want to talk to much about F&B, for those who haven't read it yet, but when those dragon eggs are stolen, Rhaena and Jaehaerys seem very worried that if someone can get those eggs to hatch, then they will become dragon lords, too! Which makes me think that they worry that perhaps anyone can become a dragon lord, and that maybe their special "genes" don't really matter! I was a bit surprised by that, but perhaps I am misinterpreting that part of the story.

[Melifeather]

26 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Something certainly changes in them once they are awake and animated. I don't think that they are noted for having any smell when Jon and Co found them, but when Jon is fighting Othor's wight, he notes a "queer and cold" smell that almost makes Jon gag.  And what ever wakes the wights outside the cave of the 3EC, Summer senses it before Bran notes a white mist has filled the air. No mention of the cold at that time, but it is growing darker. Summer must sense the same queer and cold smell that Jon and Ghost note. Perhaps that smell is only part of the wights once they are activated, too?

Have you ever smelled someone that has just come inside from the cold? They smell weird! I would describe that smell as something similar to the smell of stale Fritos! 

[St Daga]

34 minutes ago, Tucu said:

45 minutes ago, St Daga said:

We have at least the 5 dragons in the dragon pit that were killed by humans, with human weapons. It took a raging mob to do it, but they got the job done. And we have a couple dragons killed when their eye was pierced, either by arrow, spear or scorpion bolt, but I would say that the eye is a weak spot in a dragon. Still, human weapons are the cause of death in these cases. The dragons that were killed in the dragon pit were chained and caged and attacked by far greater numbers, which makes their deaths very similar to how Grey Wind died, actually! Lady died by Ned's hand and Ice, but we really don't know how he did the deed. Did he pierce her heart, did he behead her, did he cut her throat? My point is that any of these animals can be killed by men, if the circumstances are correct. Dragons are certainly going to be harder to kill, because of their size, their ability to make fire, and by their built in armor, but it can still be accomplished, and by a ragged mob with little training.

Syrax was not chained when it decided to drop to the ground and fight the peasants from there. I like the idea that she was killed by what looks like a emergent shadow of The Warrior.

You are correct, only four of the dragons were chained. The four that were stabled in the Dragon Pit. Syrax had the potential to not go to the Dragon Pit at all, or to not place herself in a distance that made her vulnerable, but she did. It's pretty interesting! One would like if Rhaenyra had any sort of mind control over the dragon, she would have had it come back to the Red Keep, but that doesn't seem to be the connection between the dragons and their riders. So, how do they control them in flight? Perhaps Syrax was so angry that she wouldn't allow communication with Rhaenyra? At one point, I think Bran tries to warg Summer, but Summer is either in to much pain or is to injured to allow that to happen. I think that is pretty interesting too, as it indicates the warg/skinchanger bond must be two sided in some way. But Varamyr makes it sound like his Shadowcat used to violently fight his possession of it! Does a certain animal just resist more than another? Maybe dragons are a bit more like Shadowcats, more independent than dogs or wolves? Let domesticated?

[Tucu]

15 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Yes. I noted that in one of my above posts. I find it interesting that the blood is the same color as their eyes. Blue!

I do find the concept of blue blood interesting, although we do have this information only from a panicked Samwell's POV. I have toyed with the idea of the blue blood, blue eyes, etc, could be tied in some way to the blue Shade of the Evening. But I can't work it out in my head so it remains just a random thought.

I have wondered about the different colors of blood, and if they could indicate a temperature or component in the blood that is supposed to be a hint to us! 

Time for a weird fact. In nature arthropod and molluscs transport oxygen via hemocyanins instead of hemoglobin making their blood light blue as it contains copper instead of iron. Hemocyanins is key in the adaptations to cold conditions like the deep sea. So blue blood can be associated with cold places, (ice) spiders and krakens :-)

[St Daga]

2 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Have you ever smelled someone that has just come inside from the cold? They smell weird! I would describe that smell as something similar to the smell of stale Fritos! 

Haha! I live in a cold climate and have never noticed that, I guess. Although sometimes I think my dog smells a bit like Frito's! 

I will say that some things about winter do have a smell to it. Like snow, for instance. It always seems like you can smell when snow is coming! It certainly doesn't smell foul to me, as the wights smell to Jon, but it could indicate that a change is coming. I think Dywen's character is often talking about how the cold smells! And Jon seems to think this means either wights or the Other's. 

[St Daga]

1 minute ago, Tucu said:

Time for a weird fact. In nature arthropod and molluscs transport oxygen via hemocyanins instead of hemoglobin making their blood light blue as it contains copper instead of iron. Hemocyanins is key in the adaptations to cold conditions like the deep sea. So blue blood can be associated with cold places, (ice) spiders and krakens :-)

Actually, the is very interesting. Perhaps this lack of iron in the blood is one of the reasons we are told that the Other's hate iron. Old Nan says, "They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins."  And that idea about the Other's hating iron does make me think of the KoW in the crypts with their iron swords!

[Tucu]

45 minutes ago, St Daga said:

You are correct, only four of the dragons were chained. The four that were stabled in the Dragon Pit. Syrax had the potential to not go to the Dragon Pit at all, or to not place herself in a distance that made her vulnerable, but she did. It's pretty interesting! One would like if Rhaenyra had any sort of mind control over the dragon, she would have had it come back to the Red Keep, but that doesn't seem to be the connection between the dragons and their riders. So, how do they control them in flight? Perhaps Syrax was so angry that she wouldn't allow communication with Rhaenyra? At one point, I think Bran tries to warg Summer, but Summer is either in to much pain or is to injured to allow that to happen. I think that is pretty interesting too, as it indicates the warg/skinchanger bond must be two sided in some way. But Varamyr makes it sound like his Shadowcat used to violently fight his possession of it! Does a certain animal just resist more than another? Maybe dragons are a bit more like Shadowcats, more independent than dogs or wolves? Let domesticated?

From F&B I got the impression that is was Joffrey's soul that forced Syrax into the ground of the dragonpit. He tried to force Syrax to go to the dragonpit but couldn't; when he died Syrax went directly to it.

36 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Actually, the is very interesting. Perhaps this lack of iron in the blood is one of the reasons we are told that the Other's hate iron. Old Nan says, "They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins."  And that idea about the Other's hating iron does make me think of the KoW in the crypts with their iron swords!

Mixing some additional things about blood. The weirwood trees are fed red blood and have red leaves.The leaves of the black-barked trees are blue; they produce the thick blue Shade of the Evening that turns the lips of the warlocks blue, the flying heart into blue and rotten meat and the Unyding into "blue shadows"

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The Undying were all around her, blue and cold, whispering as they reached for her, pulling, stroking, tugging at her clothes, touching her with their dry cold hands, twining their fingers through her hair. All the strength had left her limbs. She could not move. Even her heart had ceased to beat. She felt a hand on her bare breast, twisting her nipple. Teeth found the soft skin of her throat. A mouth descended on one eye, licking, sucking, biting . . .

Then indigo turned to orange, and whispers turned to screams. Her heart was pounding, racing, the hands and mouths were gone, heat washed over her skin, and Dany blinked at a sudden glare. Perched above her, the dragon spread his wings and tore at the terrible dark heart, ripping the rotten flesh to ribbons, and when his head snapped forward, fire flew from his open jaws, bright and hot. She could hear the shrieks of the Undying as they burned, their high thin papery voices crying out in tongues long dead. Their flesh was crumbling parchment, their bones dry wood soaked in tallow. They danced as the flames consumed them; they staggered and writhed and spun and raised blazing hands on high, their fingers bright as torches.

We also have this from the world book:

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They tell of pale blue mists that move across the waters, mists so cold that any ship they pass over is frozen instantly; of drowned spirits who rise at night to drag the living down into the grey-green depths; of mermaids pale of flesh with black-scaled tails, far more malign than their sisters of the south.

 

[Melifeather]

39 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Haha! I live in a cold climate and have never noticed that, I guess. Although sometimes I think my dog smells a bit like Frito's! 

I will say that some things about winter do have a smell to it. Like snow, for instance. It always seems like you can smell when snow is coming! It certainly doesn't smell foul to me, as the wights smell to Jon, but it could indicate that a change is coming. I think Dywen's character is often talking about how the cold smells! And Jon seems to think this means either wights or the Other's. 

I remember riding the school bus during the winter as a child and this one family always had that weird cold smell when they got on the bus. It used to make me gag. Maybe they waited outside longer than most for the bus? I dunno, but I can still imagine that smell if I think back on it as well as other people who brought that same smell into the house - generally after being outside a long time in the snow, either sledding, snowmobiling, or hunting. 

[St Daga]

11 minutes ago, Tucu said:

From F&B I got the impression that is was Joffrey's soul that forced Syrax into the ground of the dragonpit. He tried to force Syrax to go to the dragonpit but couldn't; when he died Syrax went directly to it.

Hhmm! That is certainly not something I thought about. As a matter of fact, if Syrax was already bonded to Rhaenyra, then how does the dragon even allow another rider? After he falls to his death, I would think if there had been any connection to him, it was destroyed, but perhaps not. I had wondered in someway Rhaenyra directed the dragon to the dragon pit. Could she have blamed the dragon for killing her son, even if it was unintentional? Or the dragon just went there on it's own. I really have no good explanation for what happened.

16 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Mixing some additional things about blood. The weirwood trees are fed red blood and have red leaves.The leaves of the black-barked trees are blue; they produce the thick blue Shade of the Evening that turns the lips of the warlocks blue, the flying heart into blue and rotten meat and the Unyding into "blue shadows"

The red and blue imagery is interesting, for certain. If the Shade tree's, the warlocks, the blue heart are all connected to the Other's, then perhaps it makes sense that the House of the Undying wanted to destroy Dany. Perhaps that does hint that she is the warrior that the Other's fear? It just seems to simple, but maybe some of the answers are far more simple that I think they are?

[St Daga]

5 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I remember riding the school bus during the winter as a child and this one family always had that weird cold smell when they got on the bus. It used to make me gag. Maybe they waited outside longer than most for the bus? I dunno, but I can still imagine that smell if I think back on it as well as other people who brought that same smell into the house - generally after being outside a long time in the snow, either sledding, snowmobiling, or hunting. 

That is certainly not something I have ever experienced. But I love snow and winter and the cold, so perhaps I don't even notice such a smell! I work nights, too! My eyes are blue! Perhaps I am an Other? 

[Melifeather]

15 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Mixing some additional things about blood. The weirwood trees are fed red blood and have red leaves.The leaves of the black-barked trees are blue; they produce the thick blue Shade of the Evening that turns the lips of the warlocks blue, the flying heart into blue and rotten meat and the Unyding into "blue shadows"

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The Undying were all around her, blue and cold, whispering as they reached for her, pulling, stroking, tugging at her clothes, touching her with their dry cold hands, twining their fingers through her hair. All the strength had left her limbs. She could not move. Even her heart had ceased to beat. She felt a hand on her bare breast, twisting her nipple. Teeth found the soft skin of her throat. A mouth descended on one eye, licking, sucking, biting . . .

Then indigo turned to orange, and whispers turned to screams. Her heart was pounding, racing, the hands and mouths were gone, heat washed over her skin, and Dany blinked at a sudden glare. Perched above her, the dragon spread his wings and tore at the terrible dark heart, ripping the rotten flesh to ribbons, and when his head snapped forward, fire flew from his open jaws, bright and hot. She could hear the shrieks of the Undying as they burned, their high thin papery voices crying out in tongues long dead. Their flesh was crumbling parchment, their bones dry wood soaked in tallow. They danced as the flames consumed them; they staggered and writhed and spun and raised blazing hands on high, their fingers bright as torches.

I've been wondering for awhile now what place in Westeros might be a parallel to the House of the Undying. Due to the location of Braavos versus the location of it's parallel, the Riverlands, along with the House of Black and White being a parallel to the Isle of Faces in the God's Eye, I would look for a parallel for the House of the Undying to be roughly the same latitude only further west.

The House of the Undying is south and way, way east of Braavos, in Qarth. Geographically I could see Oldtown or the Hightower being it's parallel. The House of the Undying is described as being grey in color, long and low without towers or windows, and coiled like a serpent through a grove of Ironwood trees, which is the complete opposite of how it's portrayed in the Mummer's version. Black tiles cover the palace roof, many of them fallen or broken. The mortar between the stones is dry and crumbling. Inside it's a maze with many doors and steps.

The foundation of the Hightower near Oldtown is a labyrinthine fortress of unadorned black stone of uncertain origin on Battle Isle. While some believe it to be Valyrian in origin, Archmaester Quillion suggests it was made by the mazemakers and Maester Theron suggests it was created by the Deep Ones, citing its similarities to the Seastone Chair. The Deep Ones are a species posited by Maester Theron in his manuscript Strange Stone.  They are described as a "queer, misshapen race of half men sired by creatures of the salt seas upon human women", according to Maester Yandel. Theron suggests they inspired the legend of merlings and that the sea creatures who fathered them inspired the religion of the Drowned God. The Deep Ones sound like they have some parallels to white walkers, which also have been described as a half-human race that lay with human women.

Everything in the books have a dual-nature or two-sides-of-the-same coin to them. GRRM's characters are the same way. He shows good men doing bad things, and bad men doing good things. I was even going to point out to Some Pig that while GRRM has Marvel inspired characters in the books, I do believe I have discovered DC Comics inspired characters too, which I find hilarious!

 

[Tucu]

51 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Hhmm! That is certainly not something I thought about. As a matter of fact, if Syrax was already bonded to Rhaenyra, then how does the dragon even allow another rider? After he falls to his death, I would think if there had been any connection to him, it was destroyed, but perhaps not. I had wondered in someway Rhaenyra directed the dragon to the dragon pit. Could she have blamed the dragon for killing her son, even if it was unintentional? Or the dragon just went there on it's own. I really have no good explanation for what happened.

Syrax rejects Joffrey causing him to fall and die. After that Syrax does what Joffrey wanted to do: go to the dragonpit and fight. I am taking this as a potential case of soul transfer and a Targ "becoming" a dragon. Gyldayn highlights that the dragon behaviour during the fight was unexpected. The legend of a 30 feet black shadow cutting Syrax's head reinforces the idea in my mind.

51 minutes ago, St Daga said:

The red and blue imagery is interesting, for certain. If the Shade tree's, the warlocks, the blue heart are all connected to the Other's, then perhaps it makes sense that the House of the Undying wanted to destroy Dany. Perhaps that does hint that she is the warrior that the Other's fear? It just seems to simple, but maybe some of the answers are far more simple that I think they are?

I have considered the idea of GRRM using the concept of a sentient mist or liquid as an adaptation from sci-fi's grey goo made of nanites. We have white/bluish shadows, black shadows and blue shadows all with some kind of misty or smokey theme. We also have Bran being fed a red liquid to wed him to the trees. Maybe the colour of the liquid will end implying a faction.