Heresy 214 The Last Heretic

[Melifeather]

55 minutes ago, St Daga said:

But I also wonder about how this all ties into Diana Galbaldon's comments about GRRM feeling like he killed a character that he needs now, and how he might need to write himself out of a hole. That sounds more difficult for GRRM to do within the current published story. So I wonder if the major plot change comes from a character that GRRM killed off, and the role of  important supporting cast is played by someone the show killed off!

I believe GRRM is referring to a character that he's already killed off in one of the published books, and not someone from the show or even someone he's killed off in Winds. Otherwise the "fix" wouldn't be as difficult as he's making it seem.

36 minutes ago, St Daga said:

The timeline has always seemed a bit odd. If Dany is born 8-9 months after conception (which she would probably need to be to be viable and survive in this medieval period), but Rhaella was on Dragonstone 9-10 months (how do we know that, actually) then this seems like a contradiction.

I just came up with the 9-10 months to keep in line with her rape coming after Rhaegar was killed at the Trident. Full term is actually 40 weeks, which is closer to 10 months rather than 9 months. Dany was born on Dragonstone, which means that Rhaella was there for some time. Not to mention that Dany was told the story of how Ser Willem Darry was able to escape with her and Viserys after an attack on the nursery. I'm assuming they escaped Dragonstone after Rhaella's death.

37 minutes ago, St Daga said:

And certainly ravens could have flown to Dragonstone, but would the information that is sent by raven including Elia pleading for the life of her child. It seems like ravenry messages would be short and to the point, like Elia is dead. Rhaenys and Aegon are dead. However, as far as Viserys' knowledge goes, he might have heard or learned things from years during his exile. I am sure that details or rumors about what happened at the Sack were much talked about in the Free Cities, and Viserys could have gotten some , or much, of his information years after things happened.

Ser Willem had advanced warning, so obviously someone was in communication with him. 

[SirArthur]

27 minutes ago, JNR said:

I don't think it's all that complicated, really.

Aerys learns Rhaegar lost, rapes Rhaella (too much rape in these books), names Viserys his heir and ships Rhaella off to Dragonstone with Viserys.  He does the last two steps as a protective measure because he knows King's Landing is about to get extremely dangerous for Targs. 

It may also be he was hoping to impregnate Rhaella, to create another Targ and thus a new protection against the extermination of his family.  If so, it apparently worked.

Dany recalls that "nine moons" passed between the flight to Dragonstone and her birth, which suggests she was conceived when Aerys raped Rhaella.  However, since she doesn't literally remember this (obviously having been an unborn baby), it's only a tale she was told.

As to Dany listing the moonlight flight before the Trident in her memories, I don't take that to mean she thinks it happened first.  I think it just occurs to her first.  (If someone asked me what I ate on Thanksgiving, I might say "pumpkin pie and turkey" and it wouldn't mean I ate the pie first, only that I thought of eating the pie first.)

We certainly have to add a lot of head canon to fill the gaps, like morning/midnight, pie/turkey when everything else in Dany's memory is in order, not visible injuries but need for hood and cloak, a Targaryen informant in KL directly after the sack, when the maesters control the ravens. Remember that ravens are not a telegraph system. They have to be delivered first. 

[Matthew.]

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

Mago also sticks in my head, perhaps because it seems like GRRM has grumbled about the show killing him off since season 1. We end Dance with Dany being confronted (or confronting)  the Dothraki, and Mago might be Khal of this group. Dany swore to destroy him, but perhaps the plot change could come in her using him to lead the band of warriors for her cause?

It stood out to me as well, and I'm sure GRRM has some kind of specific plan for him in mind, but my subjective intuition here is that I'm not sure there's any twist with Mago that would have significantly slowed progress on tWoW, since the consequences of a Mago twist should (theoretically) be contained to events at Vaes Dothrak. 

Within the broader context of the question, I'm still thinking in terms of a twist that's both difficult (or impossible) to transfer to someone else, and that would have thrown GRRM's pace off for months (even years!) as he rewrites to accommodate his new twist; now, perhaps I'm totally wrong on that front, but I'm getting shades of the "Meereenese Knot," where the issue was that GRRM would tinker with the chronology of events in one Meereen-related POV, and then have to alter a bunch of the other Meereenese POVs as well, and the thing became a multi-year mess of constant rewrites.

For example, if his twist involves Myrcella, that's the sort of scenario where I can see it having widespread consequences for his writing--Arianne, Jon Connington, Cersei, Jaime and Brienne (by virtue of her connection to Jaime) are all POVs that might need major rewrites if the author decides to a do a twist with Myrcella; furthermore, if it were a twist that disrupted the political state of the Lannisters, that further bleeds into other plotlines, such as Littlefinger's schemes.

I feel it's a similar situation in the North, where there's so much interrelation between events and characters at the Wall and Winterfell that any twist introduced there could have had serious consequences for GRRM's pace.

[SirArthur]

4 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

For example, if his twist involves Myrcella, that's the sort of scenario where I can see it having serious consequences for his writing--Arianne, Jon Connington, Cersei, Jaime and Brienne (by virtue of her connection to Jaime) are all POVs that might need major rewrites if the author decides to a do a twist with Myrcella; furthermore, if it were a twist that seriously disrupted the political state of the Lannisters, that further bleeds into other plotlines, such as Littlefinger's schemes.

Myrcella twists would be awesome. Like GRRM never intended to marry Myrcella to young Griff, but because they happen to be in the same area at the same time, there is a serious possibility for a twist at Storm's End involving Baratheon-Lannister banners. Something he didn't plan but would be possible. 

[Melifeather]

5 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

We certainly have to add a lot of head canon to fill the gaps, like morning/midnight, pie/turkey when everything else in Dany's memory is in order, not visible injuries but need for hood and cloak, a Targaryen informant in KL directly after the sack, when the maesters control the ravens. Remember that ravens are not a telegraph system. They have to be delivered first. 

Both Varys and Littlefinger could have provided information. Both are extraordinary players of the Game of Thrones who work with all sides as long as it furthers their own agendas. Both utilize spies. Both have access to the Red Keep. Either could easily send ravens, or more likely, personal couriers. Recall that Littlefinger had people working for him in all areas including the harbors, and Varys himself was in contact with Jorah Mormont and passed information back and forth with him. Not that I'm saying Jorah was involved with Ser Willem Darry, but rather an example of the mode of information sharing that can occur.

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

I just came up with the 9-10 months to keep in line with her rape coming after Rhaegar was killed at the Trident. Full term is actually 40 weeks, which is closer to 10 months rather than 9 months. Dany was born on Dragonstone, which means that Rhaella was there for some time. Not to mention that Dany was told the story of how Ser Willem Darry was able to escape with her and Viserys after an attack on the nursery. I'm assuming they escaped Dragonstone after Rhaella's death.

Well, two of those 40 weeks is prior to conception, so it does lesson that time by half a moon's turn. Granted, we have no idea if Rhaella had a history of carrying longer than normal or shorter than normal. My question is when did conception happen?

It seems like Rhaella's rape/Dany's conception is tied to Lord Chelsted's burning. However, when did that burning occur? We are told by Jaime that what got Chelsted burned was not the loss of the Battle of the Trident, but Aerys plan with the wildfire and Chelsted's resignation as Hand. But we are also told that it was Aerys finding out about the crowns forces loss on the Trident that caused him to send Rhaella and Viserys to Dragonstone. I can't imagine this all happened in one day. And if it did, then it means they find out about the Trident, Chelsted resigned, Aerys raped Rhaella, then sent her and Viserys out of the city pretty much on the same day. And I guess that is possible, but that was a busy day for Aerys.

But part of Jaime's memories seem to indicate that Rossart's planning where to place wildfire happened before the battle of the Trident. So, my inclination is to think that Rossart was named Hand before the Battle of the Trident, meaning Chelsted's death and Rhaella's rape happened before the loss on the Trident. That would up the timing of Dany's conception by possibly several weeks. I suppose it is possible that Rossart was placing wildfire before Chelsted's death, but it still seems to me like Chelsted died before the Trident.

 

1 hour ago, JNR said:

I don't think it's all that complicated, really.

Aerys learns Rhaegar lost, rapes Rhaella (too much rape in these books), names Viserys his heir and ships Rhaella off to Dragonstone with Viserys.  He does the last two steps as a protective measure because he knows King's Landing is about to get extremely dangerous for Targs. 

I guess this part is my timeline hang up. Rhaella's rape is tied to Chelsted's death, but Chelsted's death isn't necessarily tied to the Battle of the Trident. I think Chelsted could have been dead before this. It does seem like Rhaella and Viserys being sent to Dragonstone is tied to the Battle of the Trident. I think Rossart was probably hand at the time of the Battle of the Trident, and was already attempting to place wildfire all over the city before this happened. Otherwise, why would Chelsted have reason to argue with Aerys? Wild fire was placed, Chelsted argued with Aerys, Chelsted resigned and died, Rhaella was raped and Rossart was made hand. But it might have all occurred before the Trident. 

Connington was dismissed after the Battle of the Bells, but we don't know how much time passed between the Battle of the Bells and the Battle of the Trident. Chelsted followed Connington as Hand.

 

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Both Varys and Littlefinger could have provided information. Both are extraordinary players of the Game of Thrones who work with all sides as long as it furthers their own agendas. Both utilize spies. Both have access to the Red Keep. Either could easily send ravens, or more likely, personal couriers. Recall that Littlefinger had people working for him in all areas including the harbors, and Varys himself was in contact with Jorah Mormont and passed information back and forth with him. Not that I'm saying Jorah was involved with Ser Willem Darry, but rather an example of the mode of information sharing that can occur.

Littlefinger was probably only 15-16 at this time, and had been sent back to the Vale to recuperate from his wounds. It seems like he wasn't appointed to the Gull Town post until after the war was completed, so I don't see how he had the resources at this point to be relaying information to Rhaella on Dragonstone. Varys is the most likely candidate, I would think.

It seems like Jorah and Varys's dealings started after Jorah's banishment from the north, which seems like it occurred after the Greyjoy rebellion. For some reason in my head it seems like this selling slaves and Ned wanting his head happened within five years of the start of the story, according to Ned's own thoughts on the time line.

 

[St Daga]

3 hours ago, Matthew. said:

It stood out to me as well, and I'm sure GRRM has some kind of specific plan for him in mind, but my subjective intuition here is that I'm not sure there's any twist with Mago that would have significantly slowed progress on tWoW, since the consequences of a Mago twist should (theoretically) be contained to events at Vaes Dothrak. 

It probably isn't Mago that is part of GRRM's hangup, but by gosh, it seems like Dany's story and her "Meereenese knot" already messed up the plot, so it makes sense that it will continue to do so. 

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I believe GRRM is referring to a character that he's already killed off in one of the published books, and not someone from the show or even someone he's killed off in Winds. Otherwise the "fix" wouldn't be as difficult as he's making it seem.

This makes a lot of sense as far as GRRM's plot difficulty goes, but didn't he say that the "twist" involved someone the show killed off that was still alive in the books. 

Quote

 

The author told IGN he’s decided to move forward with the mysterious narrative move in his next novel, The Winds of Winter. It’s a twist Martin first told EWabout early last year, but at the time he wasn’t sure if he was going to pull the trigger or not. 

“I have decided to do that, yes,” Martin said in the new interview when asked about his previous quote. “Will you know it? I don’t know. It’s fairly obvious because it is something that involves a couple of characters, one of whom is dead on the show, but not dead in the books. So the show can’t do it, because they have killed a character I have not killed. But that doesn’t narrow it down much because at this point there are like 15 characters who are dead on the show who are still alive on the books.”

 

This is from the EW article from 2/25/16. 

And before that, we get this from EW in 4/3/15.

Quote

In one intriguing new wrinkle, Martin says he just came up with a big, revealing twist on a long-time character that he never previously considered. “This is going to drive your readers crazy,” he teases, “but I love it. I’m still weighing whether to go that direction or not. It’s a great twist. It’s easy to do things that are shocking or unexpected, but they have to grow out of characters. They have to grow out of situations. Otherwise, it’s just being shocking for being shocking. But this is something that seems very organic and natural, and I could see how it would happen. And with the various three, four characters involved… it all makes sense. But it’s nothing I’ve ever thought of before. And it’s nothing they can do in the show, because the show has already—on this particular character—made a couple decisions that will preclude it, where in my case I have not made those decisions.”

 

Gabaldon's comments might not be related to GRRM's "plot twist" at all. Her comments seem to indicate a character that he killed off, but I could be misinterpreting her statement.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

Well, two of those 40 weeks is prior to conception, so it does lesson that time by half a moon's turn.

What are you trying to say here? Two out of 40 weeks gestation are prior to conception???

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

It seems like Rhaella's rape/Dany's conception is tied to Lord Chelsted's burning.

Where are you getting this idea? 

After the Battle of the Bells, Aerys realized Robert was a real threat. He reminded his kingsguard, Lewyn Martell, that he held his sister Elia, and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen still making their way up the Kingsroad from Dorne. And when Rhaegar returned from the south, he persuaded Aerys to send a raven to summon Tywin Lannister, but Tywin never replied. This made Aerys very afraid, and that is when he commanded that wildfire be planted all over Kings Landing...not just the Red Keep. Lord Chelsted was Aerys Hand, and he noticed all the activity - the comings and goings of pyromancers - and he became suspicious. He confronted Aerys and tried to dissuade him from planting all that wildfire, but when Aerys refused, Chelsted took off his chain of office (the Hand pin?) and flung it on the floor and quit. Aerys burned him alive for that, but this same passage doesn't mention Rhaella's rape occurring afterward. Aerys made his favorite pyromancer, Rossart, his Hand afterward. Jaime said he heard the whole encounter, because he was standing guard. So the wildfire was planted and Chelsted burned prior to Rhaegar's death at the Trident.

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

Littlefinger was probably only 15-16 at this time, and had been sent back to the Vale to recuperate from his wounds.

Petyr was 14-15 when he fought Brandon for Catelyn's hand in 282. Seven years later, by 289, he was running Gulltown. Prior to his duel he lived many years with the Tullys. Catelyn noted that her father frequently travelled, yet she never explains why. Through my study of the Cat of the Canals chapter, I'm beginning to suspect that Hoster Tully was involved in something covert. Petyr was said to accompany Hoster on many of his trips. From what we know about Petyr and his involvement in owning and running brothels, is it too out of line to wonder if he learned the ropes from Hoster?

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

It seems like Jorah and Varys's dealings started after Jorah's banishment from the north, which seems like it occurred after the Greyjoy rebellion. For some reason in my head it seems like this selling slaves and Ned wanting his head happened within five years of the start of the story, according to Ned's own thoughts on the time line.

The Greyjoy Rebellion occurred in 289, or about five years after Robert's Rebellion, and nine years before the beginning of A Game of Thrones. While Jorah fought along side Ned during the Greyjoy Rebellion, it wasn't too long after his marriage to Lynesse that Jorah sold some poachers caught on his land into slavery. The lavish lifestyle that he tried to provide for Lynesse is what drove him to engage in human trafficking in an effort to pay off his debts. Since I believe that human trafficking and baby sacrifices were the root issues that brought about Robert's Rebellion, it's understandable that Ned was very upset with Jorah's actions, and wanted to execute him. 

47 minutes ago, St Daga said:

This makes a lot of sense as far as GRRM's plot difficulty goes, but didn't he say that the "twist" involved someone the show killed off that was still alive in the books. 

GRRM doesn't really care that the show has killed off characters that are still alive in his books. He's not letting the show dictate what he writes. The real issue is what Diana Gabaldon wrote - namely that GRRM killed off a character that he still needs.

[St Daga]

13 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

What are you trying to say here? Two out of 40 weeks gestation are prior to conception???

Yes, that is correct. Day 1 of pregnancy is counted from the first day of a women's last menstrual cycle. Conception usually occurs around day 14 of pregnancy cycle, depending on the length of a woman's cycle, at or near the end of week two. Fetal growth starts at conception, of course, but the pregnancy is determined to have started before this.

 

[Tucu]

2 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Yes, that is correct. Day 1 of pregnancy is counted from the first day of a women's last menstrual cycle. Conception usually occurs around day 14 of pregnancy cycle, depending on the length of a woman's cycle, at or near the end of week two. Fetal growth starts at conception, of course, but the pregnancy is determined to have started before this.

 

GRRM can also use the late term and post term pregnancies to add a few extra weeks to his timeline. 42 weeks would still be believable/realistic.

[Brad Stark]

I've posted a lot about Dany's parents not being who she thinks, but a few key points:

Her name is associated with Dorne and she looks like Ashara. 

Rhaella had trouble getting pregnant and carrying to term, which seemed to get worse as time went on.  Yet she is pregnant from one chance with a husband who otherwise lost interest in her, exactly at the latest possible time. 

 

[St Daga]

32 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

It seems like Rhaella's rape/Dany's conception is tied to Lord Chelsted's burning.

Where are you getting this idea? 

Jaime's thoughts.

Quote

 

The sight had filled him with disquiet, reminding him of Aerys Targaryen and the way a burning would arouse him. A king has no secrets from his Kingsguard. Relations between Aerys and his queen had been strained during the last years of his reign. They slept apart and did their best to avoid each other during the waking hours. But whenever Aerys gave a man to the flames, Queen Rhaella would have a visitor in the night. The day he burned his mace-and-dagger Hand, Jaime and Jon Darry had stood at guard outside her bedchamber whilst the king took his pleasure. "You're hurting me," they had heard Rhaella cry through the oaken door. "You're hurting me." In some queer way, that had been worse than Lord Chelsted's screaming. "We are sworn to protect her as well," Jaime had finally been driven to say. "We are," Darry allowed, "but not from him."

 

Jaime had only seen Rhaella once after that, the morning of the day she left for Dragonstone. The queen had been cloaked and hooded as she climbed inside the royal wheelhouse that would take her down Aegon's High Hill to the waiting ship, but he heard her maids whispering after she was gone. They said the queen looked as if some beast had savaged her, clawing at her thighs and chewing on her breasts. A crowned beast, Jaime knew. AFFC-Jaime II

 

Chelsted is the mace and dagger hand, based on his family sigil. So, when Chelsted burned, Aerys came to Rhaella's bedchamber and took his pleasure. Jaime says this is the last time he saw Rhaella before she left for Dragonstone. Chelsted is the last person we are told that Aerys burned, although it's possible there might have been others after him.

If Jonathor Darry was there with Jaime, this rape happened before Rhaegar and Co left for the Trident. 

32 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Lord Chelsted was Aerys Hand, and he noticed all the activity - the comings and goings of pyromancers - and he became suspicious. He confronted Aerys and tried to dissuade him from planting all that wildfire, but when Aerys refused, Chelsted took off his chain of office (the Hand pin?) and flung it on the floor and quit. Aerys burned him alive for that, but this same passage doesn't mention Rhaella's rape occurring afterward. Aerys made his favorite pyromancer, Rossart, his Hand afterward. Jaime said he heard the whole encounter, because he was standing guard. So the wildfire was planted and Chelsted burned prior to Rhaegar's death at the Trident.

Yes, I think so too. But we are told in Jaime's thoughts that he equates Chelsted's burning with Aerys raping Rhaella. Sometime after this is when Rhaella was sent to Dragonstone, but that seems tied to the outcome of the Battle if the Trident. It could have been days, it could have been weeks. Of course, this doesn't mean that is when Dany was really conceived, but it seems this is the likely time for the story of her conception occurred. Before the Battle of the Trident. 

 

[St Daga]

3 minutes ago, Tucu said:

GRRM can also use the late term and post term pregnancies to add a few extra weeks to his timeline. 42 weeks would still be believable/realistic.

Well, term pregnancies can be between 38 and 42 weeks (although until recently, this definition was 37-42wks), so a normal pregnancy can be much shorter, as well. I agree, it could also be longer than average. And I did mention above that we have no idea what Rhaella's previous pregnancy lengths might have been. Some women deliver well before 38 weeks with no harm to baby or mother!

[Melifeather]

16 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Yes, that is correct. Day 1 of pregnancy is counted from the first day of a women's last menstrual cycle. Conception usually occurs around day 14 of pregnancy cycle, depending on the length of a woman's cycle, at or near the end of week two. Fetal growth starts at conception, of course, but the pregnancy is determined to have started before this.

 

This shows that at 55 years of age people can still learn something new! 

[St Daga]

34 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

This makes a lot of sense as far as GRRM's plot difficulty goes, but didn't he say that the "twist" involved someone the show killed off that was still alive in the books. 

GRRM doesn't really care that the show has killed off characters that are still alive in his books. He's not letting the show dictate what he writes. The real issue is what Diana Gabaldon wrote - namely that GRRM killed off a character that he still needs.

GRRM did say in those quotes that I posted that the show cannot do this "twist" because it involves a character that the show has already killed. It might not be the most important character in GRRM's twist, but he mentions that a character the show killed is one of three or four characters that are involved in his plot twist!

 

[Melifeather]

9 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Jaime's thoughts.

Chelsted is the mace and dagger hand, based on his family sigil. So, when Chelsted burned, Aerys came to Rhaella's bedchamber and took his pleasure. Jaime says this is the last time he saw Rhaella before she left for Dragonstone. Chelsted is the last person we are told that Aerys burned, although it's possible there might have been others. 

Yes, I think so too. But we are told in Jaime's thoughts that he equates Chelsted's burning with Aerys raping Rhaella. Sometime after this is when Rhaella was sent to Dragonstone, but that seems tied to the outcome of the Battle if the Trident. It could have been days, it could have been weeks. Of course, this doesn't mean that is when Dany was really conceived, but it seems this is the likely time for the story of her conception occurred. Before the Battle of the Trident. 

 

Are you conflating the two days and assuming Jaime saw Rhaella the morning after she was raped, because it doesn’t read that way. He said the next time he saw her was the morning of the day she left.

[Melifeather]

2 minutes ago, St Daga said:

GRRM did say in those quotes that I posted that the show cannot do this "twist" because it involves a character that the show has already killed. It might not be the most important character in GRRM's twist, but he mentions that a character the show killed is one of three or four characters that are involved in his plot twist!

 

I saw that, but we were discussing who GRRM killed, but now needs, and is the reason for the delay of Winds.

[St Daga]

39 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

While Jorah fought along side Ned during the Greyjoy Rebellion, it wasn't too long after his marriage to Lynesse that Jorah sold some poachers caught on his land into slavery. The lavish lifestyle that he tried to provide for Lynesse is what drove him to engage in human trafficking in an effort to pay off his debts. Since I believe that human trafficking and baby sacrifices were the root issues that brought about Robert's Rebellion, it's understandable that Ned was very upset with Jorah's actions, and wanted to execute him. 

Ned tells us in his thoughts that it was five years before (Ned and Robert are on the kingsroad) that he went hunting Jorah's head with Ice.

Quote

 

"Do you remember Ser Jorah Mormont?"

 

"Would that I might forget him," Ned said bluntly. The Mormonts of Bear Island were an old house, proud and honorable, but their lands were cold and distant and poor. Ser Jorah had tried to swell the family coffers by selling some poachers to a Tyroshi slaver. As the Mormonts were bannermen to the Starks, his crime had dishonored the north. Ned had made the long journey west to Bear Island, only to find when he arrived that Jorah had taken ship beyond the reach of Ice and the king's justice. Five years had passed since then. AGOT-Eddard II

 

It's possible that Jorah was in cahoot's with Varys before this, but if he was, he was silly not to extort cash from Varys to support Lynesse's lifestyle before this. I think Varys only contacted Jorah after he was in exile in Essos. We don't know how long Jorah was married to Lynesse before they fled Westeros, but I would agree that they likely were married very soon after the Greyjoy Rebellion, but that assumes the tourney held for the Greyjoy rebellion happened soon after the war ended. 

 

[St Daga]

47 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

Littlefinger was probably only 15-16 at this time, and had been sent back to the Vale to recuperate from his wounds.

Petyr was 14-15 when he fought Brandon for Catelyn's hand in 282. Seven years later, by 289, he was running Gulltown. Prior to his duel he lived many years with the Tullys. Catelyn noted that her father frequently travelled, yet she never explains why. Through my study of the Cat of the Canals chapter, I'm beginning to suspect that Hoster Tully was involved in something covert. Petyr was said to accompany Hoster on many of his trips. From what we know about Petyr and his involvement in owning and running brothels, is it too out of line to wonder if he learned the ropes from Hoster?

I have no doubt that Hoster could have been up to something shifty. The way Catelyn idolizes him and her mostly poor judgement indicate to me that she was wrong about how good a man her father was. Also, Hoster's lingering, painful death seems to be something GRRM might give a man who did some bad things in his day.

Perhaps I misunderstood but I thought you meant that Littlefinger could have been sending information to Rhaella on Dragonstone. If so, then that would have been late 283 or early 284, which would still make Littlefinger young, and not nearly in charge of the customs situation in Gulltown. That would not have occurred for a couple years yet. While I do think it's possible that as early as the rebellion, Baelish might have been scheming to destroy the Starks, I don't know how involving himself with Rhaella would accomplish that. But I might have mistaken your comments about Varys sending ravens to Rhaella and confused the issue. 

[Melifeather]

6 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I have no doubt that Hoster could have been up to something shifty. The way Catelyn idolizes him and her mostly poor judgement indicate to me that she was wrong about how good a man her father was. Also, Hoster's lingering, painful death seems to be something GRRM might give a man who did some bad things in his day.

Perhaps I misunderstood but I thought you meant that Littlefinger could have been sending information to Rhaella on Dragonstone. If so, then that would have been late 283 or early 284, which would still make Littlefinger young, and not nearly in charge of the customs situation in Gulltown. That would not have occurred for a couple years yet. While I do think it's possible that as early as the rebellion, Baelish might have been scheming to destroy the Starks, I don't know how involving himself with Rhaella would accomplish that. But I might have mistaken your comments about Varys sending ravens to Rhaella and confused the issue. 

I was just pointing out examples of how information could be shared other than using ravens.