Heresy 214 The Last Heretic

[SirArthur]

13 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

For this theory to work, Dany would have to be the same age as Robb - conceived around late 282, pushing both of their birthdays into 283 - June or July

Ned married Cat after the battle of the Bells. So when Bells is in 283 and Robb is born in 283, that would give us two good dates. 

[JNR]

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

the time between Harrenhal and the abduction of Lyanna should be accounted for

There is good canonical evidence that roughly a year went by there... meaning two years or so passed from Harrenhal to the Sack.

For instance, Jaime was 15 when he joined the KG, but 17 when he killed Aerys.

[Melifeather]

18 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Ned married Cat after the battle of the Bells. So when Bells is in 283 and Robb is born in 283, that would give us two good dates. 

I thought he married Catelyn before Battle of Bells? 

Does anyone know if this can be found in the text? Swords chpt 29 is cited, but I only saw verbiage about Robert rejoining Ned at Stoney Sept. “Rejoin” makes it sound like Ned married before BotBells.

When Ned “rejoined” Robert at Stoney Sept, he had Hoster Tully and his men with him. Wouldn’t it make sense that he marry while he was there fetching Hoster?

[Melifeather]

2 minutes ago, JNR said:

There is good canonical evidence that roughly a year went by there... meaning two years or so passed from Harrenhal to the Sack.

For instance, Jaime was 15 when he joined the KG, but 17 when he killed Aerys.

I’m theorizing than Ashara is Jon’s mother, so Lyanna’s abduction timing would be irrelevant.

[SirArthur]

13 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I thought he married Catelyn before Battle of Bells? 

 Does anyone know if this can be found in the text? Swords chpt 29 is cited, but I only saw verbiage about Robert rejoining Ned at Stoney Sept. “Rejoin” makes it sound like Ned married before BotBells.

The idea is that Jon Arryn's heir died at the battle and he needed a new marriage and a new heir afterwards. I'm not sure if the marriage wasn't proposed earlier, but it sure would be a coincidence. 

If she had lost a child before, that might explain Father's words, and much else besides . . . Lysa's match with Lord Arryn had been hastily arranged, and Jon was an old man even then, older than their father. An old man without an heir. His first two wives had left him childless, his brother's son had been murdered with Brandon Stark in King's Landing, his gallant cousin had died in the Battle of the Bells. He needed a young wife if House Arryn was to continue . . . a young wife known to be fertile.

 

Catelyn I, Storms

[Melifeather]

7 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

The idea is that Jon Arryn's heir died at the battle and he needed a new marriage and a new heir afterwards. I'm not sure if the marriage wasn't proposed earlier, but it sure would be a coincidence. 

If she had lost a child before, that might explain Father's words, and much else besides . . . Lysa's match with Lord Arryn had been hastily arranged, and Jon was an old man even then, older than their father. An old man without an heir. His first two wives had left him childless, his brother's son had been murdered with Brandon Stark in King's Landing, his gallant cousin had died in the Battle of the Bells. He needed a young wife if House Arryn was to continue . . . a young wife known to be fertile.

 

Catelyn I, Storms

That for Jon Arryn and Lysa’s marriage. Was it a double wedding?

[Melifeather]

In the "fapp" under Catelyn Starks bio it says Ned Stark and Jon Arryn arrived to Riverrun together to ask Hoster Tully for aid to help Robert. As part of their agreement Ned marries Catelyn, and Jon marries Lysa. Then Ned, Jon, and Hoster ride together to Stoney Sept to aid Robert.

[Tucu]

9 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

That for Jon Arryn and Lysa’s marriage. Was it a double wedding?

Yes

Quote

And one day fifteen years ago, this second father had become a brother as well, as he and Ned stood together in the sept at Riverrun to wed two sisters, the daughters of Lord Hoster Tully.

 

[Melifeather]

Just now, Tucu said:

Yes

 

I think the wiki is incorrect. Ned Stark and Jon Arryn were already leading armies when they arrived at Riverrun, and asked Hoster Tully to join them in aiding Robert at Stoney Sept, because Jon Con had him cornered. The double wedding was part of the bargain and it occurred before they left. I don't know how to change wiki entries, but it needs to be corrected.

[Tucu]

13 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think the wiki is incorrect. Ned Stark and Jon Arryn were already leading armies when they arrived at Riverrun, and asked Hoster Tully to join them in aiding Robert at Stoney Sept, because Jon Con had him cornered. The double wedding was part of the bargain and it occurred before they left. I don't know how to change wiki entries, but it needs to be corrected.

The order seems to be:

-Ned&Cat betrothal and Hoster joins RR

-Battle of the Bells where Denys Arryn dies.

-Jon&Lysa betrothal immediately followed by double wedding.

[Lady Rhodes]

On ‎11‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 12:33 PM, Feather Crystal said:

since I believe the wildlings are the Others

This I do not agree with, but I do agree with your point about the invisible ward as the agent preventing them from crossing.  Interesting bit about the krakens, too.

 

On ‎11‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 9:13 AM, Feather Crystal said:

The natural defenses of the gorge must be a deterrent.

I agree.

[SirArthur]

15 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think the wiki is incorrect. Ned Stark and Jon Arryn were already leading armies when they arrived at Riverrun, and asked Hoster Tully to join them in aiding Robert at Stoney Sept, because Jon Con had him cornered. The double wedding was part of the bargain and it occurred before they left. I don't know how to change wiki entries, but it needs to be corrected.

In the context of Robb's birth and 283, I think it is safe to place the wedding very early 283, be it before or after Bells. 

[asongofheresy]

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Welcome to Heresy, Jova Snow! We are happy to have you! Feel free to comment on anything you like.

I thought I had found definitive proof that Rhaella was already noticeably pregnant before fleeing, but we have conflicting accounts, so I'm sure that was deliberate on GRRM's part. I was hoping to establish a firmer timeline for Jon's birth by using the nine months age difference too, because I currently believe Jon was conceived at the Harrenhal tourney. Having Rhaella three or more months pregnant when she fled would help support that theory. But the "nine moons" statement pushes it back out again! ARGH! lol

I was thinking if it was possible Aerys visited Rhaella after the burning of Rickard and Brandon and that's when she become pregnant with Daenerys? This timeline would also make it possible that Jon was born before the Trident and sacking of KL but when? If I was a believer in RLJ (I am more inclined to NAJ) I would say Lyanna already gave birth to Jon when Rhaegar returned from ToJ but since he wanted a Visenya he would try for a child again which makes it possible for Jon to have sibling - not a twin though. 

[Melifeather]

10 minutes ago, Tucu said:

The order seems to be:

-Ned&Cat betrothal and Hoster joins RR

-Battle of the Bells where Denys Arryn dies.

-Jon&Lysa betrothal immediately followed by double wedding.

That doesn't make alot of sense. Why not get married while they're already there? Seems silly to go back just to get married. Is there text that states they returned to Riverrun after the Battle of the Bells? Wouldn't that slow the momentum of the war?

8 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

This I do not agree with, but I do agree with your point about the invisible ward as the agent preventing them from crossing.  Interesting bit about the krakens, too.

 

I agree.

Thanks for reading! Did you read one of my essays, or are you commenting on an earlier post within Heresy?

6 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

In the context of Robb's birth and 283, I think it is safe to place the wedding very early 283, be it before or after Bells. 

It would be helpful to have text to support when the marriages occurred. To me it makes more sense that they married while they were at Riverrun asking Hoster for help, and then going to help Robert. After defeating Jon Con's forces wouldn't the armies have moved towards the Ruby Ford and the Battle at the Trident?

[SirArthur]

4 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

It would be helpful to have text to support when the marriages occurred. To me it makes more sense that they married while they were at Riverrun asking Hoster for help, and then going to help Robert. After defeating Jon Con's forces wouldn't the armies have moved towards the Ruby Ford and the Battle at the Trident?

Storm, jaime V

He floated in heat, in memory. "After dancing griffins lost the Battle of the Bells, Aerys exiled him." Why am I telling this absurd ugly child? "He had finally realized that Robert was no mere outlaw lord to be crushed at whim, but the greatest threat House Targaryen had faced since Daemon Blackfyre. The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffins' men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father. But no raven returned from Casterly Rock, and that made the king even more afraid. He saw traitors everywhere, and Varys was always there to point out any he might have missed. So His Grace commanded his alchemists to place caches of wildfire all over King's Landing. Beneath Baelor's Sept and the hovels of Flea Bottom, under stables and storehouses, at all seven gates, even in the cellars of the Red Keep itself.

"Everything was done in the utmost secrecy by a handful of master pyromancers. They did not even trust their own acolytes to help. The queen's eyes had been closed for years, and Rhaegar was busy marshaling an army. But Aerys's new mace-and-dagger Hand was not utterly stupid, and with Rossart, Belis, and Garigus coming and going night and day, he became suspicious. Chelsted, that was his name, Lord Chelsted." It had come back to him suddenly, with the telling. "I'd thought the man craven, but the day he confronted Aerys he found some courage somewhere. He did all he could to dissuade him. He reasoned, he jested, he threatened, and finally he begged. When that failed he took off his chain of office and flung it down on the floor. Aerys burnt him alive for that, and hung his chain about the neck of Rossart, his favorite pyromancer. The man who had cooked Lord Rickard Stark in his own armor. And all the time, I stood by the foot of the Iron Throne in my white plate, still as a corpse, guarding my liege and all his sweet secrets.

There is enough time afterwards, at least in the short run. They actually moved the army back to Riverrun and then to the Trident, as Stoney Sept is south of the Trident. 

[Lady Rhodes]

5 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Thanks for reading! Did you read one of my essays, or are you commenting on an earlier post within Heresy?

I was commenting on the post, though accidently! I thought I was on the last page but I was not, so I apologizing for commenting on something waaaaaay back!

Would be interested in the essays though!

[Melifeather]

19 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

I was thinking if it was possible Aerys visited Rhaella after the burning of Rickard and Brandon and that's when she become pregnant with Daenerys? This timeline would also make it possible that Jon was born before the Trident and sacking of KL but when? If I was a believer in RLJ (I am more inclined to NAJ) I would say Lyanna already gave birth to Jon when Rhaegar returned from ToJ but since he wanted a Visenya he would try for a child again which makes it possible for Jon to have sibling - not a twin though. 

Having Daenerys conception occurring after the burning death of Rickard Stark is certainly possible, but then she'd be older than Robb. Not saying that's not possible, because she's supposed to be around the same age as Robb and Jon. I also seem to recall that GRRM once said that the events described in the first chapter where we meet Dany actually occurred prior the mother direwolf scene. Just because the chapter is out of order doesn't mean those events occurred afterward. It's like how he's got Crow and Dance. They are supposed to be happening simultaneously even if Dance came out later.

[Melifeather]

8 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Storm, jaime V

He floated in heat, in memory. "After dancing griffins lost the Battle of the Bells, Aerys exiled him." Why am I telling this absurd ugly child? "He had finally realized that Robert was no mere outlaw lord to be crushed at whim, but the greatest threat House Targaryen had faced since Daemon Blackfyre. The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffins' men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father. But no raven returned from Casterly Rock, and that made the king even more afraid. He saw traitors everywhere, and Varys was always there to point out any he might have missed. So His Grace commanded his alchemists to place caches of wildfire all over King's Landing. Beneath Baelor's Sept and the hovels of Flea Bottom, under stables and storehouses, at all seven gates, even in the cellars of the Red Keep itself.

"Everything was done in the utmost secrecy by a handful of master pyromancers. They did not even trust their own acolytes to help. The queen's eyes had been closed for years, and Rhaegar was busy marshaling an army. But Aerys's new mace-and-dagger Hand was not utterly stupid, and with Rossart, Belis, and Garigus coming and going night and day, he became suspicious. Chelsted, that was his name, Lord Chelsted." It had come back to him suddenly, with the telling. "I'd thought the man craven, but the day he confronted Aerys he found some courage somewhere. He did all he could to dissuade him. He reasoned, he jested, he threatened, and finally he begged. When that failed he took off his chain of office and flung it down on the floor. Aerys burnt him alive for that, and hung his chain about the neck of Rossart, his favorite pyromancer. The man who had cooked Lord Rickard Stark in his own armor. And all the time, I stood by the foot of the Iron Throne in my white plate, still as a corpse, guarding my liege and all his sweet secrets.

There is enough time afterwards, at least in the short run. They actually moved the army back to Riverrun and then to the Trident, as Stoney Sept is south of the Trident. 

Having enough time isn't the same as having canonical text as reference!

Me thinks an RLJ fan wrote that wiki page!

6 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I was commenting on the post, though accidently! I thought I was on the last page but I was not, so I apologizing for commenting on something waaaaaay back!

Would be interested in the essays though!

I have multiple essays on various subjects. If you're interested in discussing the Others you should check out my reread thread:

 

[Tucu]

35 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

That doesn't make alot of sense. Why not get married while they're already there? Seems silly to go back just to get married. Is there text that states they returned to Riverrun after the Battle of the Bells? Wouldn't that slow the momentum of the war?

Robert's army was being chased by the new army led by JonCon after the defeat at Ashford. They had to move quickly to assist him. From Cat we know that Ned stayed in Riverrun for 2 weeks after the wedding

Quote

Ned had lingered scarcely a fortnight with his new bride before he too had ridden off to war with promises on his lips. At least he had left her with more than words; he had given her a son. Nine moons had waxed and waned, and Robb had been born in Riverrun while his father still warred in the south. She had brought him forth in blood and pain, not knowing whether Ned would ever see him. Her son. He had been so small …

Quote

"The Mad King's men had been hunting Robert, trying to catch him before he could rejoin your father," he told her as they rode toward the gate. "He was wounded, being tended by some friends, when Lord Connington the Hand took the town with a mighty force and started searching house by house. Before they could find him, though, Lord Eddard and your grandfather came down on the town and stormed the walls. Lord Connington fought back fierce. They battled in the streets and alleys, even on the rooftops, and all the septons rang their bells so the smallfolk would know to lock their doors. Robert came out of hiding to join the fight when the bells began to ring. He slew six men that day, they say. One was Myles Mooton, a famous knight who'd been Prince Rhaegar's squire. He would have slain the Hand too, but the battle never brought them together. Connington wounded your grandfather Tully sore, though, and killed Ser Denys Arryn, the darling of the Vale. But when he saw the day was lost, he flew off as fast as the griffins on his shield. The Battle of the Bells, they called it after. Robert always said your father won it, not him."

Edit: Both Robert and Hoster were wounded after the Battle of the Bells, so war had to wait anyway.

[Melifeather]

8 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Robert's army was being chased by the new army led by JonCon after the defeat at Ashford. They have to move quickly to assist him. From Cat we know that Ned stayed in Riverrun for 2 weeks after the wedding

 

Yeah well, I don't think my ideas are out of line. Catelyn's choice of words sounds like Ned WAS in a hurry to assist Robert even if two weeks sounds like a long time to us. That probably was considered hasty.