Heresy 214 The Last Heretic

[SirArthur]

14 hours ago, alienarea said:

I guess it won't fit but I don't have time to look up the events and timelines:

- Rhaegar gets Lyanna pregnant right after Harrenhal, their child stays in KL as "Aegon"

I'm not an expert on the birth dates of children, but as far as i know, that should put Aegon and "Aegon" at least one year apart.

[Frey family reunion]

On 12/12/2018 at 9:23 AM, JNR said:

The canon certainly makes that a possibility, yes.

Canon reads, re Chelsted:

Canon reads re Rossart:

Therefore, we know Rossart was only Hand for roughly two weeks, ending during the Sack when Jaime killed him.

That sure makes it sound as if Chelsted burned, Rossart appointed Hand, and Rhaella was raped by Aerys...all about a fortnight before the Sack. 

Well, that is just about when Aerys would have learned that Rhaegar was beaten at the Trident.

Which was also the event that led him to name Viserys his heir, and send Viserys and Rhaella to Dragonstone.  It's a chronological and common sense fit.

Except that this can’t be a correct timeline.  Jaime and Jon Darry stood guard while Avery’s raped Rhaella, sometime after Chelsted burned.  Jon Darry’s presence meant that the Battle of the Trident had not yet happened.  

So, for timeline sake, it appears that Rhaegar comes to King’s Landing, and he, Selmy, and Darry start rounding up the remnants of the Battle of Bells.  Aerys’ starts plotting with Rossart in the presence of Jaime and Varys about blowing up King’s Landing.  Chelsted  , Aerys new Hand, gets wind of this, confronts Aerys, and gets burned in the process.  

Jon Darry and Jaime stand guard while Aerys rapes Rhaella.  Rhaella leaves sometime after that, presumably.  Jaime recalls seeing her leave one morning wearing a hood, presumably because of the injuries left on her by Aerys’ foreplay.  

Rhaegar and company finally head out to confront Robert’s army in the Riverlands.  Aerys gets word of Rhaegar’s death, and then appoints Rossart as his Hand, and prepares in earnest to blow up King’s Landing.

The biggest contradiction we have is that some sources indicate that Aerys sent Rhaella and Viserys away after he learned of Rhaegar’s death at the Trident.  However, Jaime’s recollection doesn’t seem to specify the amount of time between Rhaella’s rape and the day she left King’s Landing.  

[JNR]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Rhaella leaves sometime after that, presumably.  Jaime recalls seeing her leave one morning wearing a hood, presumably because of the injuries left on her by Aerys’ foreplay.  

Rhaegar and company finally head out to confront Robert’s army in the Riverlands.  Aerys gets word of Rhaegar’s death, and then appoints Rossart as his Hand, and prepares in earnest to blow up King’s Landing.

Problem is, this sequence doesn't work either, because

• We are informed in canon that Viserys and Rhaella were fleeing to Dragonstone.  This means Rhaegar had already lost, and Aerys knew that... else there would be no reason for the queen and the prince to flee their home.

• We are also told that Aerys burned Chelsted (for not supporting the wildfire plot) and then hung his chain around Rossart's neck (because he was a pyromancer and did support the wildfire plot).  There is no reference to any kind of delay between the two Hands in the canon; you have to wander over to the World book for that.

• Finally, we're told that Rossart was only Hand for two weeks and that he died in the Sack.  This would mean Chelsted burned, Rossart was appointed, Rhaegar marched to and died at the Trident, and the Sack occurred -- all inside a two-week timeframe.  Seems compressed, but that is what the canon says.

There really is no good way to resolve this situation IMO, which no doubt is why the World book made up a delay between Hands, contradicting the canon.  Since the World book is a dicey resource, I'm more inclined to believe Jaime's canonical account.

[Tucu]

21 minutes ago, JNR said:

Problem is, this sequence doesn't work either, because

• We are informed in canon that Viserys and Rhaella were fleeing to Dragonstone.  This means Rhaegar had already lost, and Aerys knew that... else there would be no reason for the queen and the prince to flee their home.

• We are also told that Aerys burned Chelsted (for not supporting the wildfire plot) and then hung his chain around Rossart's neck (because he was a pyromancer and did support the wildfire plot).  There is no reference to any kind of delay between the two Hands in the canon; you have to wander over to the World book for that.

• Finally, we're told that Rossart was only Hand for two weeks and that he died in the Sack.  This would mean Chelsted burned, Rossart was appointed, Rhaegar marched to and died at the Trident, and the Sack occurred -- all inside a two-week timeframe.  Seems compressed, but that is what the canon says.

There really is no good way to resolve this situation IMO, which no doubt is why the World book made up a delay between Hands, contradicting the canon.  Since the World book is a dicey resource, I'm more inclined to believe Jaime's canonical account.

I don't think that there is a contradiction. There were a few weeks without a Hand. Jamie doesn't specify when Rossart got the position but the world book does:

Quote

Birds flew and couriers raced to bear word of the victory at the Ruby Ford. When the news reached the Red Keep, it was said that Aerys cursed the Dornish, certain that Lewyn had betrayed Rhaegar. He sent his pregnant queen, Rhaella, and his younger son and new heir, Viserys, away to Dragonstone, but Princess Elia was forced to remain in King's Landing with Rhaegar's children as a hostage against Dorne. Having burned his previous Hand, Lord Chelsted, alive for bad counsel during the war, Aerys now appointed another to the position: the alchemist Rossart

 

[Melifeather]

Jaime saw Rhaella the morning of the day she left, but he did not see her hooded and cloaked. That report came from her maids as well as their comments about the bites and scratches she suffered.

The wildfyre plot was spurred into action by the defeat at the Battle of the Bells. Chelsted burned, because he quit in protest, and Rossart was named Hand apparently immediately. It seems that Chelsted wasn't informed about the wildfyre plan, because the text makes it sound like he figured it out by watching the pyromancers comings and goings, and then it's said he confronted Aerys about it.

Rhaella is sent to Dragonstone after Aerys learns that Rhaegar was defeated at the Trident. It is quite possible that Chelsted's burning and subsequent raping of Rhaella occurred days before Jaime saw her the morning of the day she left. Do we know how many days between the Battle of the Bells and Rhaegar's defeat at the Trident? It could be weeks. 

[Melifeather]

1 minute ago, Tucu said:

Birds flew and couriers raced to bear word of the victory at the Ruby Ford. When the news reached the Red Keep, it was said that Aerys cursed the Dornish, certain that Lewyn had betrayed Rhaegar. He sent his pregnant queen, Rhaella, and his younger son and new heir, Viserys, away to Dragonstone, but Princess Elia was forced to remain in King's Landing with Rhaegar's children as a hostage against Dorne. Having burned his previous Hand, Lord Chelsted, alive for bad counsel during the war, Aerys now appointed another to the position: the alchemist Rossart

If the World book is to be believed, then Rhaella is definitely already known to be pregnant when she and Viserys flee to Dragonstone, which makes sense to me. 

[Tucu]

3 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

If the World book is to be believed, then Rhaella is definitely already known to be pregnant when she and Viserys flee to Dragonstone, which makes sense to me. 

That could have been common knowledge at the time of the events or speculation by Yandel; him assuming that Aerys and Rhaella are the parents.

[SirArthur]

55 minutes ago, JNR said:

Problem is, this sequence doesn't work either, because

• We are informed in canon that Viserys and Rhaella were fleeing to Dragonstone.  This means Rhaegar had already lost, and Aerys knew that... else there would be no reason for the queen and the prince to flee their home.

• We are also told that Aerys burned Chelsted (for not supporting the wildfire plot) and then hung his chain around Rossart's neck (because he was a pyromancer and did support the wildfire plot).  There is no reference to any kind of delay between the two Hands in the canon; you have to wander over to the World book for that.

• Finally, we're told that Rossart was only Hand for two weeks and that he died in the Sack.  This would mean Chelsted burned, Rossart was appointed, Rhaegar marched to and died at the Trident, and the Sack occurred -- all inside a two-week timeframe.  Seems compressed, but that is what the canon says.

There really is no good way to resolve this situation IMO, which no doubt is why the World book made up a delay between Hands, contradicting the canon.  Since the World book is a dicey resource, I'm more inclined to believe Jaime's canonical account.

As far as I understand the situation, we were discussing the posibility of two rapes of Rhaella, the first when Darry was present and the second when Dany is supposed to be conceived (when Aerys got the message of the defeat).

And as far as I can tell, Rhaegar was supposed to be in charge between Chelsted and Rossart. Which of course makes the southern return of Rhaegar (without Hightower) much more intriguing.  

[Frey family reunion]

2 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

As far as I understand the situation, we were discussing the posibility of two rapes of Rhaella, the first when Darry was present and the second when Dany is supposed to be conceived (when Aerys got the message of the defeat).

There’s never any indication that Aerys raped Rhaella when he got word of the defeat on the Trident.  We’re told 1) he would only visit Rhaella’s bedchamber when he put someone to the flames, and 2) Jaime’s only recollection of standing guard while Aerys raped Rhaella was when Jon Darry was next to him, which would have been before the Trident.

Jaime would have been present if Aerys raped Rhaella again after the Trident because Aerys had Jaime constantly by him at this point, and according to Jaime, the only time he saw Rhaella after he and Darry had to stand guard while she was being raped by Aerys was the day she left for Dragonstone.

[SirArthur]

36 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

If the World book is to be believed, then Rhaella is definitely already known to be pregnant when she and Viserys flee to Dragonstone, which makes sense to me. 

I don't know. This all sounds ("couriers raced") as everyone was in haste, yet we have our morning queen fleeing at midnight and waiting a day on the ship. 

[Melifeather]

33 minutes ago, Tucu said:

That could have been common knowledge at the time of the events or speculation by Yandel; him assuming that Aerys and Rhaella are the parents.

It would be helpful to know if Rhaella was pregnant and noticeable or not in order to guess how long she was allowed to remain on Dragonstone before giving birth to Dany, because it's been reported by GRRM that Jon is nine months older than Dany. 

4 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

As far as I understand the situation, we were discussing the posibility of two rapes of Rhaella, the first when Darry was present and the second when Dany is supposed to be conceived (when Aerys got the message of the defeat).

And as far as I can tell, Rhaegar was supposed to be in charge between Chelsted and Rossart. Which of course makes the southern return of Rhaegar (without Hightower) much more intriguing.  

It is not known how often Aerys raped Rhaella. We do know he was particularly aroused whenever he burnt anyone. But obviously they were having regular sex as indicated by Rhaella's list of miscarriages. Even if she was raped the day she left does not mean that's the day Dany was conceived. I actually find it hard to believe that Robert left Rhaella in peace on Dragonstone for even more than a month, especially when all it would take is to send a detachment via ship.

Having a noticeably pregnant Rhaella upon departure moves up Jon's conception, and solidifies the idea that he could have been conceived at the Harrenhal tourney.

[Frey family reunion]

49 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I don't think that there is a contradiction. There were a few weeks without a Hand. Jamie doesn't specify when Rossart got the position but the world book does:

And I’ve argued the point in the thread that won’t be named, that it makes sense that Aerys would not have appointed another Hand immediately after Chelsted.  Because Aerys only really needed a Hand to fight the war for him (which was what Connington was doing as Hand before he was exiled).  With Rhaegar fighting the war for him, all a Hand could do was become a nuisance and get in the way of his secret plan to plant wildfire all over King’s Landing.  So why simply appoint someone else to put his nose in your business?

[Melifeather]

5 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

I don't know. This all sounds ("couriers raced") as everyone was in haste, yet we have our morning queen fleeing at midnight and waiting a day on the ship. 

Jaime seeing her the morning of the day she left does not equate waiting on a ship all day to sail at midnight. It likely took all day to pack and bring belongings to the ship. The report by the maids that she left hooded and cloaked could have been at any time of the day, including afternoon or that evening.

[SirArthur]

1 minute ago, Frey family reunion said:

There’s never any indication that Aerys raped Rhaella when he got word of the defeat on the Trident.  We’re told 1) he would only visit Rhaella’s bedchamber when he put someone to the flames, and 2) Jaime’s only recollection of standing guard while Aerys raped Rhaella was when Jon Darry was next to him, which would have been before the Trident.

 Jaime would have been present if Aerys raped Rhaella again after the Trident because Aerys had Jaime constantly by him at this point, and according to Jaime, the only time he saw Rhaella after he and Darry had to stand guard while she was being raped by Aerys was the day she left for Dragonstone.

Exactly. So far we have

day 0: Rhaella is rap

day x: battle at the Trident

day x+10-14: Ned races to KL and arrives there (I have read that Ned needed 10 days, but didn't find the quote)

day x+10-14 + 8-9 month after the fall of K'L: Dany is born

When we calculate it together, we have 8 1/2 to 9 1/2 month plus the time it took Rhaegar to reach the Trident + the time of the battle 

this would put us about 9 1/2 to 10 1/2 month after day 0.

 

thus the assumption there was a second action later, maybe it was not a rape, but Aerys had to get into mood

[Frey family reunion]

2 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Jaime seeing her the morning of the day she left does not equate waiting on a ship all day to sail at midnight. It likely took all day to pack and bring belongings to the ship. The report by the maids that she left hooded and cloaked could have been at any time of the day, including afternoon or that evening.

I think there is a significant discrepancy between Jaime’s recollection of Rhaella leaving, and Viserys’ tale told to Dany.

Of course, the simplest explanation, is either that Jaime’s recollection is spotty, or that Viserys may be embellishing the tale a bit to make it sound more exciting.

I’ve also wondered why Rhaella and Viserys would have had to take a midnight flight to Dragonstone at all.  There didn’t appear to be any navy presence from the rebellion at all, until after the siege at Storm’s End was lifted.  So why make a riskier trip at night if they didn’t need to?

The one possibility (although seemingly far flung) is that Rhaella took Viserys and fled Dragonstone at the time of Chelsted’s burning, and before the Trident.  And she fled to escape Aerys, as opposed to Robert’s army.  

Of course that would mean that Jaime’s recollection that Aerys packed the queen off to Dragonstone with Prince Viserys, once word reached the court about the Trident battle, would have to be wrong.

[Frey family reunion]

5 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Exactly. So far we have

day 0: Rhaella is rap

day x: battle at the Trident

day x+10-14: Ned races to KL and arrives there (I have read that Ned needed 10 days, but didn't find the quote)

day x+10-14 + 8-9 month after the fall of K'L: Dany is born

When we calculate it together, we have 8 1/2 to 9 1/2 month plus the time it took Rhaegar to reach the Trident + the time of the battle 

this would put us about 9 1/2 to 10 1/2 month after day 0.

 

thus the assumption there was a second action later, maybe it was not a rape, but Aerys had to get into mood

Of course you are assuming that Dany was the child born to Rhaella...

[Tucu]

28 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

It would be helpful to know if Rhaella was pregnant and noticeable or not in order to guess how long she was allowed to remain on Dragonstone before giving birth to Dany, because it's been reported by GRRM that Jon is nine months older than Dany.

All these are misdirection tricks by GRRM. Was she pregnant? was she visible pregnant? is Aerys the father? is Rhaella the mother? When was Jon born? My  head hurts thinking of the combinations :-)

32 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

It is not known how often Aerys raped Rhaella. We do know he was particularly aroused whenever he burnt anyone. But obviously they were having regular sex as indicated by Rhaella's list of miscarriages. Even if she was raped the day she left does not mean that's the day Dany was conceived. I actually find it hard to believe that Robert left Rhaella in peace on Dragonstone for even more than a month, especially when all it would take is to send a detachment via ship.

Having a noticeably pregnant Rhaella upon departure moves up Jon's conception, and solidifies the idea that he could have been conceived at the Harrenhal tourney.

Robert didn't have a fleet and ordered Stannis to build one after Storm's End was free. The remaining of the Targ fleet was in Dragonstone but it went down in the storm that hit the island the day of the birth. Stannis then took Dragonstone with little effort.

 

[Melifeather]

32 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Exactly. So far we have

day 0: Rhaella is rap

day x: battle at the Trident

day x+10-14: Ned races to KL and arrives there (I have read that Ned needed 10 days, but didn't find the quote)

day x+10-14 + 8-9 month after the fall of K'L: Dany is born

When we calculate it together, we have 8 1/2 to 9 1/2 month plus the time it took Rhaegar to reach the Trident + the time of the battle 

this would put us about 9 1/2 to 10 1/2 month after day 0.

 

thus the assumption there was a second action later, maybe it was not a rape, but Aerys had to get into mood

There is nothing to corroborate when Dany was consummated or born, but I don't for a minute believe Robert would allow Rhaella to stay on Dragonstone for 8-9 months. Nooo-way! lol

[Melifeather]

2 minutes ago, Tucu said:

All these are misdirection tricks by GRRM. Was she pregnant? was she visible pregnant? is Aerys the father? is Rhaella the mother? When was Jon born? My  head hurts thinking of the combinations :-)

Robert didn't have a fleet and ordered Stannis to build one after Storm's End was free. The remaining of the Targ fleet was in Dragonstone but it went down in the storm that hit the island the day of the birth. Stannis then took Dragonstone with little effort.

 

That's a good point. When was the siege lifted? It must be an easy sail from Storms End to Dragonstone.

[Tucu]

13 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

That's a good point. When was the siege lifted? It must be an easy sail from Storms End to Dragonstone.

The siege was probably lifted a couple of weeks after the sack of KL; Ned departed the following day and the distance is somehow similar from the Trident to KL and from KL to Storm's End. Dany's tale tells us that she was born 9 moons after leaving from Dragonstone but there is a lot of flexibility with this as Viserys was a kid.