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40 Thousand Skeletons

Doran's shameless manipulation of Arianne

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Doran has been doing things to teach Arianne lessons. He is mercilessly eliminating Arianne's naive and impulsive nature and turning her into a mature player of the game. The difference between naive Arianne in her first POV in AFFC and semi-mature Arianne in the TWOW sample chapters is huge. Look at what Doran did to his daughter:

1) take her sense of privilege/birthright by leaving out the fake "letter to Quentyn"

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"Not Trys. Quentyn." Her eyes were bold and black as sin, unflinching. "I have known the truth since I was four-and-ten, since the day that I went to my father's solar to give him a good night kiss, and found him gone. My mother had sent for him, I learned later. He'd left a candle burning. When I went to blow it out, I found a letter lying incomplete beside it, a letter to my brother Quentyn, off at Yronwood. My father told Quentyn that he must do all that his maester and his master-at-arms required of him, because 'one day you will sit where I sit and rule all Dorne, and a ruler must be strong of mind and body.'" A tear crept down Arianne's soft cheek. "My father's words, written in his own hand. They burned themselves into my memory. I cried myself to sleep that night, and many nights thereafter."

2) arrange a series of horrible marriage offers just to make her resentful of Doran and her own lack of agency in the choice of her husband, and also make her into a super feminist

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"You do not know my father. I have been disappointing him since I first arrived in this world without a cock. Half a dozen times he has tried to marry me to toothless greybeards, each more contemptible than the last. He never commanded me to wed them, I grant you, but the offers alone prove how little he regards me."

3) have Oberyn plant the idea of crowning Myrcella in everyone's heads

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"To be sure, I have much to thank your sister for. If not for her accusation at the feast, it might well be you judging me instead of me judging you." The prince's eyes were dark with amusement. "Who knows more of poison than the Red Viper of Dorne, after all? Who has better reason to want to keep the Tyrells far from the crown? And with Joffrey in his grave, by Dornish law the Iron Throne should pass next to his sister Myrcella, who as it happens is betrothed to mine own nephew, thanks to you."

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"Oh, but they must, or see the realm riven once more, as it was before we wed the dragons. Father told me so. He said we had the Imp to thank, for sending us Princess Myrcella. She is so pretty, don't you think? I wish that I had curls like hers. She was made to be a queen, just like her mother." Dimples bloomed in Tyene's cheeks. "I would be honored to arrange the wedding, and to see to the making of the crowns as well. Trystane and Myrcella are so innocent, I thought perhaps white gold . . . with emeralds, to match Myrcella's eyes. Oh, diamonds and pearls would serve as well, so long as the children are wed and crowned. Then we need only hail Myrcella as the First of Her Name, Queen of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men, and lawful heir to the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros, and wait for the lions to come."

4) give Arianne the perfect opportunity to seduce Arys and carry out the crowning Myrcella mission, and leak info about Quentyn's quest to her for extra motivation 

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"I dare more than you dream . . . but leave that for the nonce. Ser Andrey has been sent to Norvos to serve your lady mother for three years. Garin will spend his next two years in Tyrosh. From his kin amongst the orphans, I took coin and hostages. Lady Sylva received no punishment from me, but she was of an age to marry. Her father has shipped her to Greenstone to wed Lord Estermont. As for Arys Oakheart, he chose his own fate and met it bravely. A knight of the Kingsguard . . . what did you do to him?"

"I fucked him, Father. You did command me to entertain our noble visitors, as I recall."

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Prince Doran was still pretending that her brother was with Lord Yronwood, but Garin's mother had seen him at the Planky Town, posing as a merchant. One of his companions had a lazy eye, the same as Cletus Yronwood, Lord Anders's randy son. A maester traveled with them too, a maester skilled in tongues. My brother is not as clever as he thinks. A clever man would have left from Oldtown, even if it meant a longer voyage. In Oldtown he might have gone unrecognized. Arianne had friends amongst the orphans of the Planky Town, and some had grown curious as to why a prince and a lord's son might be traveling under false names and seeking passage across the narrow sea. One of them had crept through a window of a night, tickled the lock on Quentyn's little strongbox, and found the scrolls within.

Arianne would have given much and more to know that this secret trip across the narrow sea was Quentyn's own doing, and his alone . . . but parchments he had carried had been sealed with the sun and spear of Dorne. Garin's cousin had not dared break the seal to read them, but . . .

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She leaned her back against a fluted pillar and wondered if her brother was looking at the same stars tonight, wherever he might be. Do you see the white one, Quentyn? That is Nymeria's star, burning bright, and that milky band behind her, those are ten thousand ships. She burned as bright as any man, and so shall I. You will not rob me of my birthright!

Quentyn did not have multiple sealed scrolls in a locked strongbox. He kept one unsealed document (the marriage pact) in his boot. (the marriage pact had seals stamped onto it, but the parchment itself was simply "unrolled" by Daario then Dany without any mention of a seal being broken)

5) sabotage her mission, kill her lover Arys, and cut off Myrcella's ear to teach Arianne a lesson about trusting people

Quote

"Someone told," Hotah had said. The memory still made her angry. Arianne clung to that, feeding the flame within her heart. Anger was better than tears, better than grief, better than guilt. Someone told, someone she had trusted. Arys Oakheart had died because of that, slain by the traitor's whisper as much as by the captain's axe. The blood that had streamed down Myrcella's face, that was the betrayer's work as well. Someone told, someone she had loved. That was the cruelest cut of all.

6) lock Arianne in a tower and take away all her remaining privileges/power to command people, and give her useful books to read

Quote

When Timoth brought her breakfast the next morning, Arianne asked to see Ricasso rather than her father. Plainly she could not compel Prince Doran to attend her, but surely a mere seneschal would not ignore a summons from the rightful heir to Sunspear.

He did, though. "Did you tell Ricasso what I said?" she demanded the next time she saw Timoth. "Did you tell him I had need of him?" When the man refused to answer her, Arianne seized a flagon of red wine and upended it over his head. The serving man retreated dripping, his face a mask of wounded dignity. My father means to leave me here to rot, the princess decided. Or else he is making plans to marry me off to some disgusting old fool and intends to keep me locked away until the bedding.

7) free Arianne, and give her power back, now that she does not take it for granted

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Then came a day when a rough hand woke her, shaking her by the shoulder. "Little princess," said a voice she'd known from childhood. "Up and dress. The prince has called for you." Areo Hotah stood over her, her old friend and protector. He was talking to her. Arianne smiled sleepily. It was good to see that seamed, scarred face, and hear his gruff, deep voice and thick Norvoshi accent. "What did you do with Cedra?"

"The prince sent her to the Water Gardens," Hotah said. "He will tell you. First you must wash, and eat."

She must look a wretched creature. Arianne crawled from the bed, weak as a kitten. "Have Morra and Mellei prepare a bath," she told him, "and tell Timoth to bring me up some food. Nothing heavy. Some cold broth and a bit of bread and fruit."

"Aye," said Hotah. Never had she heard a sweeter sound.

8) Reveal the fake plan (originally Arianne marrying Viserys now switched to Quentyn marrying Dany) to ironically earn Arianne's trust

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Her father plucked up a cyvasse piece. "I must know how you learned that Quentyn was abroad. Your brother went with Cletus Yronwood, Maester Kedry, and three of Lord Yronwood's best young knights on a long and perilous voyage, with an uncertain welcome at its end. He has gone to bring us back our heart's desire."

She narrowed her eyes. "What is our heart's desire?"

"Vengeance." His voice was soft, as if he were afraid that someone might be listening. "Justice." Prince Doran pressed the onyx dragon into her palm with his swollen, gouty fingers, and whispered, "Fire and blood."

Here is Aero Hotah observing the result of Doran's manipulation:

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Princess Arianne returned in time for the stuffed peppers. My little princess, Hotah thought, but Arianne was a woman now. The scarlet silks she wore left no doubt of that. Of late she had changed in other ways as well. Her plot to crown Myrcella had been betrayed and smashed, her white knight had perished bloodily at Hotah's hand, and she herself had been confined to the Spear Tower, condemned to solitude and silence. All of that had chastened her. There was something else as well, though, some secret her father had confided in her before releasing her from her confinement. What that was, the captain did not know.

And here is Arianne reflecting on the Myrcella incident again in TWOW:

Spoiler

Arianne missed her friends. Drey and Garin and her sweet Spotted Slyva had been a part of her since she was little, trusted confidants who had shared her dreams and secrets, cheered her when she was sad, helped her face her fears. One of them had betrayed her, but she missed them all the same. It was my own fault. Arianne had made them part of her plot to steal off with Myrcella Baratheon and crown her queen, an act of rebellion meant to force her father's hand, but someone's loose tongue had undone her. The clumsy conspiracy had accomplished nothing, except to cost poor Myrcella part of her face, and Ser Arys Oakheart his life.

TADA! Look how crazy smart Doran is. Arianne is going to be much better suited to be a ruler than asshole Aegon, IMO. That said, Doran is really messing with his daughter on like a psychopath level for the sake of the greater good, and I am not sure how to feel about that...

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2 minutes ago, Euron III Greyjoy said:

If only Catelyn could've lived longer to give Sansa some of these lessons.  

LOL it's OK, Joffrey and Cersei were her teachers :D 

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Lannister reached out and took her hand, and gave it a squeeze. "I am only a little lion, child, and I vow, I shall not savage you." Bowing, he said, "But now you must excuse me. I have urgent business with queen and council."

Sansa watched him walk off, his body swaying heavily from side to side with every step, like something from a grotesquerie. He speaks more gently than Joffrey, she thought, but the queen spoke to me gently too. He's still a Lannister, her brother and Joff's uncle, and no friend. Once she had loved Prince Joffrey with all her heart, and admired and trusted his mother, the queen. They had repaid that love and trust with her father's head. Sansa would never make that mistake again.

 

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1 hour ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

LOL it's OK, Joffrey and Cersei were her teachers :D 

 

Sansa is a slow student. She should have learned the lesson when Lady was killed.

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Hm... what does Doran accomplish through this? I'm asking because when he wrote the letter to Quentyn, he actually was planning to set aside Arianne to marry her to Viserys, with the crappy marriages that she would reject being to buy time, so that she could marry Viserys once things were underway. 

I am pretty sure that, unless Doran could see into the future, he was planning that he was actually going to marry off Arianne to Viserys, disinherit her to make her queen, which would probably piss her off (she dislikes having had charge of "feasts and frolicks", the position that a Westerosi consort would have, instead of having any actual power in Dorne). It seems that both of them are wrapped up in a lack of communication over this issue. 

I do not think that Doran is Batman and that he has these long-term strategies that rely on how things conveniently turn out in the books.

11 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Sansa is a slow student. She should have learned the lesson when Lady was killed.

She was also 11, and with what's going on there's a lot that probably makes her think it's Arya's fault. I wouldn't hold her to the same standard as a 23 year old who's going to think a lot differently anyway, because Dorne.

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1 hour ago, Vaith said:

Hm... what does Doran accomplish through this? I'm asking because when he wrote the letter to Quentyn, he actually was planning to set aside Arianne to marry her to Viserys, with the crappy marriages that she would reject being to buy time, so that she could marry Viserys once things were underway. 

I am pretty sure that, unless Doran could see into the future, he was planning that he was actually going to marry off Arianne to Viserys, disinherit her to make her queen, which would probably piss her off (she dislikes having had charge of "feasts and frolicks", the position that a Westerosi consort would have, instead of having any actual power in Dorne). It seems that both of them are wrapped up in a lack of communication over this issue. 

I do not think that Doran is Batman and that he has these long-term strategies that rely on how things conveniently turn out in the books.

She was also 11, and with what's going on there's a lot that probably makes her think it's Arya's fault. I wouldn't hold her to the same standard as a 23 year old who's going to think a lot differently anyway, because Dorne.

I didn't really clarify in the OP, because I just copy pasted this from another thread. But this thread is based on the premise that Doran is still lying about his plans. He never actually planned on marrying Arianne to Viserys, the marriage pact document was fake, and the letter to Quentyn was fake. Why would he send such a sensitive letter to a small child when it easily be read by both the Sunspear and Yronwood maesters? He wouldn't. The sole purpose of that letter was for Arianne to read it. This was his plan all along.

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1 minute ago, Emperor Bu Gai said:

Tywin was planning to marry his daughter to Balon.  That's sending your daughter to hell.  Doran's is not so bad.

He had Areo Hotah decapitate Arianne's lover in front of her, which severely traumatized her. That's pretty bad...

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On 2/3/2019 at 3:54 AM, Euron III Greyjoy said:

If only Catelyn could've lived longer to give Sansa some of these lessons.  

If Catelyn was as wise as Doran. But she wasn't. First, she was easily manipulated to believe Lannisters killed Jon Arryn. She started this Stark-Lannister "war" giving tottaly wrong advises to Ned. Her ego distracts her. She judges Jon Snow bad and insists him to join the Night Watch. And he is true-hearted and would be helpful to all his brothers and sisters. Jon Snow was the right friend and "hand'' for Robb, not Theon. Catelyn hated him only for being bastard. Catelyn lacks the ability to make right decisions. Like sending Jaime and Brienne... She failed Eddard as she failed her son Robb. She can not be a player in the game of thrones. And the same for Sansa no matter how much people like her. If Sansa survive this game of thrones, it will be not because her mother wise councel, but for the hard lessons she learned herself.

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On ‎2‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 12:13 PM, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

He had Areo Hotah decapitate Arianne's lover in front of her, which severely traumatized her. That's pretty bad...

I don't think that's entirely true. Arys would not have been decapitated had he not charged Hotah. So to say that Doran made this happen is a mischaracterization, unless I'm forgetting something.

But on your OP, I think Doran is a lot smarter and cagier than people give him credit, both in-story and in the fandom. Although the Quentyn plan was a pretty huge boner, IMO.

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On 2/3/2019 at 1:09 PM, Vaith said:

She was also 11, and with what's going on there's a lot that probably makes her think it's Arya's fault. I wouldn't hold her to the same standard as a 23 year old who's going to think a lot differently anyway, because Dorne.

Arya was 9 and saw Joffrey for what he was.

Sansa saw Joffrey trying to kill Arya and the butcher's boy out of nowhere, she also  saw Cersei asking for Lady's head, even though it was the wrong wolf, and Sansa was still dumb enough to use Cersei as her confident. Yeah slow is a kind word, the correct one would be moron.

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On 2/3/2019 at 5:11 PM, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I didn't really clarify in the OP, because I just copy pasted this from another thread. But this thread is based on the premise that Doran is still lying about his plans. He never actually planned on marrying Arianne to Viserys, the marriage pact document was fake, and the letter to Quentyn was fake. Why would he send such a sensitive letter to a small child when it easily be read by both the Sunspear and Yronwood maesters? He wouldn't. The sole purpose of that letter was for Arianne to read it. This was his plan all along.

 

45 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

I don't think that's entirely true. Arys would not have been decapitated had he not charged Hotah. So to say that Doran made this happen is a mischaracterization, unless I'm forgetting something.

But on your OP, I think Doran is a lot smarter and cagier than people give him credit, both in-story and in the fandom. Although the Quentyn plan was a pretty huge boner, IMO.

Doran's smart, but I think he's still susceptible to human emotion rather than being this cold mastermind. A lot of his ambitions are also due to Elia's death, even if he doesn't show it guns blazing like Oberyn and his daughters.

I just don't think this false betrothal contract works in my reading, sorry. Arianne's story in A Feast for Crows works wonderfully in how genuine the reconciliation seems now their inability to communicate has been resolved. 

Besides, I'm still confused how this works in the original timeline. So say Viserys doesn't die... what excuse would he tell Arianne in this scenario? Is Quentyn/Daenerys still going to be proposed from him, or is it just an original timeline proposal after Dany declares herself to be queen? 

I guess I'm a bit sceptical of readings that pin everything down to one mastermind character. I think the story's better without that kind of thing.

1 minute ago, Arthur Peres said:

Arya was 9 and saw Joffrey for what he was.

Sansa saw Joffrey trying to kill Arya and the butcher's boy out of nowhere, she also  saw Cersei asking for Lady's head, even though it was the wrong wolf, and Sansa was still dumb enough to use Cersei as her confident. Yeah slow is a kind word, the correct one would be moron.

Arya was coming at it from a different perspective. It seems a little silly that people want to blame a child for Everything Going Wrong and not another one of Ned's blunders in AGOT for telling his daughters about the plans to leave King's Landing.

Even if one wants to blame Sansa, I don't know how that makes her "moronic." At eleven, she can spot heraldry rather well, knows music, is apparently a good student of Maester Luwin... the first time she's really instructed to navigate political waters is when she is held captive as a child and suffers from trauma. And, well, from where she is now in the story, I really doubt the judgement of those who brush her off as some useless ingenue at this point.

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7 minutes ago, Vaith said:

Arya was coming at it from a different perspective.

So should Sansa after seeing Joffrey trying to murder her sister and Cersei calling for her pet's head.

8 minutes ago, Vaith said:

It seems a little silly that people want to blame a child for Everything Going Wrong and not another one of Ned's blunders in AGOT for telling his daughters about the plans to leave King's Landing.

I do not turn a blind eye for Ned's mistakes, but if Arya with 9 years old was able to see  the true nature of Joffrey and Cersei and Sansa the main victim still hadn't understand her position. This means Sansa is moroninc. She can read, write and sing, but she can't interpretate or handle a situation.

20 minutes ago, Vaith said:

 Even if one wants to blame Sansa, I don't know how that makes her "moronic." At eleven, she can spot heraldry rather well, knows music, is apparently a good student of Maester Luwin... the first time she's really instructed to navigate political waters is when she is held captive as a child and suffers from trauma. And, well, from where she is now in the story, I really doubt the judgement of those who brush her off as some useless ingenue at this point.

This means she is educated, but she cant put her education to pratice. Look at Joffreys actions around her from day one. Provoking Robb in the court yard, ignoring and not giving any condolence to Bran's situation, trying to murder her sister and sister friend for no reason whatsoever, calling for her Wolf's head.

All the signs were there. Jon Robb and Arya all saw Joffrey for the psycho that he was. Eddard should have called the betrothal out after the wolf incident, and Sansa should have noticed Joffreys true nature.

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3 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

So should Sansa after seeing Joffrey trying to murder her sister and Cersei calling for her pet's head.

I do not turn a blind eye for Ned's mistakes, but if Arya with 9 years old was able to see  the true nature of Joffrey and Cersei and Sansa the main victim still hadn't understand her position. This means Sansa is moroninc. She can read, write and sing, but she can't interpretate or handle a situation.

This means she is educated, but she cant put her education to pratice. Look at Joffreys actions around her from day one. Provoking Robb in the court yard, ignoring and not giving any condolence to Bran's situation, trying to murder her sister and sister friend for no reason whatsoever, calling for her Wolf's head.

All the signs were there. Jon Robb and Arya all saw Joffrey for the psycho that he was. Eddard should have called the betrothal out after the wolf incident, and Sansa should have noticed Joffreys true nature.

I don't really fault a child at all for holding on to a wish to be queen - the most you can really aspire to be as a noble girl in Westeros.

I think Sansa's story is driven by development; hence why "my skin has turned to porcelain, to ivory, to steel," is so poignant. So I don't really care about her myopia in AGOT, because it doesn't exist within a bubble. It goes with her journey of learning throughout the novels.

The only reason I said this because I thought it was a little unfair to compare Sansa at 11 and Arianne at 23. When you look at Sansa at 14 vs Arianne at 21, I'd say there's little to no difference, and that's with being much younger and raised to be a wife instead of an heir, in a region with far fewer opportunities for women. So really, Arianne isn't some intrigue queen compared to Sansa at this point in the books.

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11 minutes ago, Vaith said:

I don't really fault a child at all for holding on to a wish to be queen - the most you can really aspire to be as a noble girl in Westeros.

Not do I. But the thing is, they killed her pet for no reason, and Joffrey also pulled a sword at her sister. This is too much to just brushes off.

11 minutes ago, Vaith said:

The only reason I said this because I thought it was a little unfair to compare Sansa at 11 and Arianne at 23. When you look at Sansa at 14 vs Arianne at 21, I'd say there's little to no difference, and that's with being much younger and raised to be a wife instead of an heir, in a region with far fewer opportunities for women. So really, Arianne isn't some intrigue queen compared to Sansa at this point in the books.

The thing is, Arianne was 14 when she learned about Doran wantig to replace her. Her on father, and she didn't denied her reality, she started to get paranoid and saw evidences of conspiracy even when where none.

Sansa saw a dude that she meet few weaks ago getting on a brawl with her brother and now is trying to kill her sister and her future mother in law calls for her pet's head and still use this maniac family as confident. She is moronic.

Her character arc is about growing and becoming more cynical as we see her actions around Harry Arryn but she was slow to grasp what was right at her face even before Ned execution.

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41 minutes ago, Vaith said:

 

Doran's smart, but I think he's still susceptible to human emotion rather than being this cold mastermind. A lot of his ambitions are also due to Elia's death, even if he doesn't show it guns blazing like Oberyn and his daughters.

I just don't think this false betrothal contract works in my reading, sorry. Arianne's story in A Feast for Crows works wonderfully in how genuine the reconciliation seems now their inability to communicate has been resolved. 

Besides, I'm still confused how this works in the original timeline. So say Viserys doesn't die... what excuse would he tell Arianne in this scenario? Is Quentyn/Daenerys still going to be proposed from him, or is it just an original timeline proposal after Dany declares herself to be queen? 

I guess I'm a bit sceptical of readings that pin everything down to one mastermind character. I think the story's better without that kind of thing.

Agreed, he is no genius -- the Quentyn plan is proof of that -- but neither is he the indolent muttonhead that many characters and readers make him out to be. And he's certainly not the mastermind behind all that's happened in the story. If there is anyone who comes close to that description, it's Littlefinger IMO.

I'm not quite sure I follow your questions inre the timeline. What excuse (for what?) would "he" (Doran? Viserys?) tell Arianne? Viserys would be the head of House Targaryen and a man in his own right, so he would be under no obligation to a contract that was signed in secret by people who are now dead. For the same reason, Doran would not need to provide Arianne with an excuse, since it would be Viserys' decision to honor the betrothal or not. Now, if Doran were to make his support for Viserys' try for the Iron Throne contingent upon Arianne's hand, that would be different, but that would also be an entirely new agreement.

And if Quentyn was still alive, then it would be rather unlikely that Dany would have her dragons or would be anything other than Drogo's khaleesi. So there would be no reason to offer Quentyn.

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1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

Arya was 9 and saw Joffrey for what he was.

Sansa saw Joffrey trying to kill Arya and the butcher's boy out of nowhere, she also  saw Cersei asking for Lady's head, even though it was the wrong wolf, and Sansa was still dumb enough to use Cersei as her confident. Yeah slow is a kind word, the correct one would be moron.

Lol, reminds me of this exchange:

Quote

The older man in white spoke to Sansa gently. "Ofttimes, Ser Illyn frightens me as well, sweet lady. He has a fearsome aspect."

"As well he should." The queen had descended from the wheelhouse. The spectators parted to make way for her. "If the wicked do not fear the King's Justice, you have put the wrong man in the office."

Sansa finally found her words. "Then surely you have chosen the right one, Your Grace, she said, and a gale of laughter erupted all around her.

 

Interestingly, though, because Sansa is often clueless about what is happening around her, the reader is as well, unless they take a good, hard look at the subtext.

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1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Agreed, he is no genius -- the Quentyn plan is proof of that -- but neither is he the indolent muttonhead that many characters and readers make him out to be. And he's certainly not the mastermind behind all that's happened in the story. If there is anyone who comes close to that description, it's Littlefinger IMO.

I'm not quite sure I follow your questions inre the timeline. What excuse (for what?) would "he" (Doran? Viserys?) tell Arianne? Viserys would be the head of House Targaryen and a man in his own right, so he would be under no obligation to a contract that was signed in secret by people who are now dead. For the same reason, Doran would not need to provide Arianne with an excuse, since it would be Viserys' decision to honor the betrothal or not. Now, if Doran were to make his support for Viserys' try for the Iron Throne contingent upon Arianne's hand, that would be different, but that would also be an entirely new agreement.

And if Quentyn was still alive, then it would be rather unlikely that Dany would have her dragons or would be anything other than Drogo's khaleesi. So there would be no reason to offer Quentyn.

I'm not sure about the theory that Doran is stupid, and I think he's often overestimated in fan circles. In the story, I'm not sure if anyone thinks he is stupid -- the Sand Snakes just think he is indecisive because of their more brash approach to the situation.

And I am discussing the theory that the betrothal never existed, so I agree with what you say here. In the OT, I understand what happened - it's just that the "no betrothal, Doran is a mastermind" theory is a bit odd to put forward with what happened in the original timeline. 

I mentioned Dany because Doran wouldn't have known who she'd marry when he wrote the letter in 291. So I was asking whether a Quentyn/Dany match was really planned back then, or whether the theory is that Doran isn't such a mastermind, just that he was just now planning to marry off Quentyn to Dany -- which is serendipitously similar to the Arianne/Viserys betrothal that was never planned, according to this particular theory.

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