The Kingsguard doesn't precisely shine in FaB

[kissdbyfire]

28 minutes ago, the Last Teague said:

Why is it ironic?

28 minutes ago, the Last Teague said:

The oaths aren't bad per se. It's the lack of respect for them. To be able to deconstruct the Kingsguard myth, first you have to build one, and B&F doesn't acomplish that, in my opinion.

The most acclaimed Kingsguards are those who fulfill the ones. People remember knights dying defending Aegon I, but not torturing poor Maegor wifes. 

It must be noted Brienne is precisely a person really commited to knightly ideals. She is discovering the prize of heroism.

Sandor is not a hero. I don't care how much he is obsessed with a young girl. Taking pride in killing civilians, deserting his men, kidnapping children and being a drunkard is nothing heroic. It's just sunking more and more in his cesspool of life. Will he redeem someday? Mayhaps, if he is still alive. Personaly I don't miss him.

It’s the blind adherence to vows that is the problem. It’s the hiding behind, “I was only following orders!”. As Jaime explains. All those “words are wind” that people complain about are there for a reason. 

[cpg2016]

On 3/19/2019 at 6:36 PM, the Last Teague said:

The oaths aren't bad per se. It's the lack of respect for them. To be able to deconstruct the Kingsguard myth, first you have to build one, and B&F doesn't acomplish that, in my opinion.

No, the point is that the oaths of a Kingsguard can be in direct opposition to the oaths of a knight.  And that most times, the Kingsguard choose to uphold their KG oaths over their knightly ones.  This is most apparant in Aerys II's KG, who are held up as paragons of knightly honor and chivalry, but who are aiding and abetting a madman while he murders, rapes, and tortures his way through life.  We're supposed to dig deeper than the POVs of our protagonists regarding Robert's KG and realize that they are no worse than their predecessors.  The knightly oaths they all swear are good and decent, but not many of the real "Sers" we meet actually bother to uphold them.  It shows the corruption in the political elite of Westeros.  They've internalized the privileges of knighthood or nobility, and not the responsibilities.  Its why the characters we're meant to sympathize with are all folks who do the right thing, even if it is the "stupid" decision - Brienne, Edmure, the Starks, etc.

On 3/19/2019 at 6:36 PM, the Last Teague said:

Sandor is not a hero. I don't care how much he is obsessed with a young girl. Taking pride in killing civilians, deserting his men, kidnapping children and being a drunkard is nothing heroic. It's just sunking more and more in his cesspool of life. Will he redeem someday? Mayhaps, if he is still alive. Personaly I don't miss him.

When did I say he was a hero?  I said he gets a bit of a redemption arc.  He goes from a disillusioned, cynical asshole who thinks he's seen through the facade of Westerosi chivalry, to regaining some sense of his own honor and personal responsibility.  He's not a hero, and he hasn't atoned for his crimes, any more than Jaime has or will.  But he's experiencing growth as a character, which is why we're meant to sympathize with him more than, say, his brother.

[Lord Varys]

On 3/19/2019 at 9:47 PM, cpg2016 said:

And Robert's KG is meant to be shit, because it's meant to reflect the corruption and indifferent carelessness of Robert's regime in general.  That being said, its not certain whether they're all THAT bad. Jaime is unsuitable for obvious reasons, but from the perspective of martial ability he's fine.  Ditto Selmy. 

Selmy is an old man. He is still pretty good, but he is no longer as good as he once was - or as the average new KG would be.

On 3/19/2019 at 9:47 PM, cpg2016 said:

So is Arys Oakheart. 

Considering how easy Areo put him down Arys was never particularly good. He certainly weakened himself by riding in full armor through desert temperatures and all, but we never hear anything about him being particularly good.

On 3/19/2019 at 9:47 PM, cpg2016 said:

Mandon Moore seems competent if not outstanding, and is probably a political appointment of Jon Arryn's. 

Mandon Moore is, according to Jaime, the most dangerous man in Robert's Kingsguard after Jaime himself. That tells us something. The man is the true steel. His dead eyes would be irrelevant if he could wield his sword properly.

On 3/19/2019 at 9:47 PM, cpg2016 said:

We don't know a ton about Preston Greenfield.  His brutal treatment of Sansa and his having a lover make him no worse than the rest of Aerys II's Kingsguard, who were uniformly bad people and some of whom had lovers.  Really, Boros Blount and sort-of Meryn Trant are the only outright unacceptable KG we know of, and both are meant to emphasize Cersei's malign influence and Robert's drunken carelessness.

Trant is a mean guy, but he seems to be not that bad as a warrior. It is Blount who is really shitty, and that may have just been part of him aging. If he was chosen around 30 or in his thirties - not too old to not serve honorably for at least a decade or so - then he would now approach fifty, making him not exactly a great warrior even if he had been one in his youth.

But the reputation of Robert's KG is solely shitty because of the Kingslayer. That's why Ned despises those men, not because of their individual quality or character. He looks down on Robert's KG long before he met any of them.

On 3/19/2019 at 9:50 PM, cpg2016 said:

Agreed.  The Kingsguard is meant to be a deconstruction of how the knightly oaths people in Westeros swear are ignoble and false.  The most acclaimed Kingsguards are full of men who break their primary vows to defend the weak and innocent, because being good with a sword and willing to accept any order is what is prized.  Its consistently the social outsiders who perform the truly heroic acts.  Brienne, a woman warrior (not a knight).  Sandor (the non-knight) who gets his redemption arc and who gets humanized.  Addam of Hull, a bastard.

This is far too much a narrow view. George portrays real knights and contrasts that with their vows which were - in reality as well as in Westeros - not worth much. But he doesn't judge by following Sandor's ridiculous view that knights are bad/hypocrites in principle nor does he buy the nonsense that hedge knights are, for the most part, great guys because they don't have conflicting loyalties or interests.

Nowhere in the books are Kingsguard praised for doing stuff that is not part of their duty as KG - and FaB, thankfully, made it clear to us that doing 'the right thing' gets you the Wall or death if you are a KG.

Brienne is a pretty decent character, but serving Renly - a traitor and would-be usurper, prepared to butcher his nephews and brother - as a bodyguard makes her basically a good woman serving a shitty cause than an actually good person. Such a person would have known that serving Renly in this capacity was treason no matter how well or kingly he looked like.

On 3/19/2019 at 11:15 PM, kissdbyfire said:

And Dunk IMO.

Dunk joins the Kingsguard. He exchanged his morals and his freedom for a white cloak. Granted, Aegon V wanted to change the world, and make life better for men like Dunk, but as a Kingsguard Dunk could no longer do what (he thought) was right. His king and queen and the children and grandchildren of his king would come always first, no matter what else was at stake. If some bully were beating up Tanselle and the Crown was facing some great crisis at the same time (or members of the royal family were in mortal danger) then he would have to ignore the beating up of Tanselle.

And so on.

I mean, this guy actually ends up fighting the Laughing Storm in a trial-by-combat ultimately defeating him when he was owing his very life to this guy. He should have stood with him, not against him. Insisting that Prince Duncan goes through with his marriage contract was perfectly reasonable.

Dunk most definitely ended up living in reality where things are a lot more complicated than following your own personal code of honor. He still tried to do the right thing, presumably, but no longer the way he used to.

[the Last Teague]

12 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

 

When did I say he was a hero?  I said he gets a bit of a redemption arc.  He goes from a disillusioned, cynical asshole who thinks he's seen through the facade of Westerosi chivalry, to regaining some sense of his own honor and personal responsibility.  He's not a hero, and he hasn't atoned for his crimes, any more than Jaime has or will.  But he's experiencing growth as a character, which is why we're meant to sympathize with him more than, say, his brother.

Sorry to disent but... where is the growth? We were made to feel some sympathy for him, but he remained the same person all the time. After losing control at Blackwater, he fleds for avoiding punishment. In his way out, he could have killed Sansa Stark, but she managed him. Later, the Hound kidnapped Arya Stark, and kept running until he was hurt at the inn's fight (mostly becouse he stupidly get drunking before an expected fight). Where is the personal growth? It's just going down in a self-destruction path.

Our perception of the Hound evolution, but Sandor himself remained the same dog.

If he is still alive in the books, we will see if he grows up. It not, well... The woods are full of beasts, like Tywin and Tyrion said.

[Lord Varys]

Sandor transforms from savage wild dog to Sansa's would-be dog. He doesn't change on a fundamental level, he just starts to control his baser tendencies because he wants her. He is just a deeply traumatized guy who, to cope with his traumas, decided to do as worse - or even worse - things as his brother. His identity as 'the Hound' was shaken by the fire when he finally felt that he couldn't do what he wanted to do, but it didn't really change his outlook on life. He just wanted to be the Stark dog now, instead of the Lannister dog. 

There is a chance that his near-death experience really did change him in a certain manner - considering that he was saved by a brother of the Faith with 'magical' healing hands (and thus the Seven themselves) one can imagine that he may be in for as deep a conversion as Lancel was during his near-death experience and his subsequent recovery. Sandor's nihilism may be dead.

The Warrior's Sons have been restored again, now knighthood might appeal to him, serving the gods who saved him and doing good in the name of the Seven may be his way to get back into the story. Or not. It is basically the only way I could see him return to the main plot.

[cpg2016]

8 hours ago, the Last Teague said:

Sorry to disent but... where is the growth? We were made to feel some sympathy for him, but he remained the same person all the time. After losing control at Blackwater, he fleds for avoiding punishment. In his way out, he could have killed Sansa Stark, but she managed him. Later, the Hound kidnapped Arya Stark, and kept running until he was hurt at the inn's fight (mostly becouse he stupidly get drunking before an expected fight). Where is the personal growth? It's just going down in a self-destruction path.

Our perception of the Hound evolution, but Sandor himself remained the same dog.

If he is still alive in the books, we will see if he grows up. It not, well... The woods are full of beasts, like Tywin and Tyrion said.

I mean, if you don't perceive it, then nothing I can say is going to change your mind.  But look at who he was.  An obedient dog, willing to murder without a second thought on behalf of his Lannister masters, because to his mind the entire concept of knighthood and chivalry was a lie, so why not embrace the underlying truth and not trouble himself about it?  And then he comes into contact with Sansa, someone with just as much reason to be disillusioned with the chivalric ideals of Westeros as he was, but who maintains a quiet faith in those ideal, even when the reality is nowhere near them.  It's that exposure which leads to him protecting Sansa.  You don't see character growth, when Sandor rode down and needlessly killed Micah for no reason but that he was ordered to, but then refuses to stoop to beating an innocent child?  The whole point of Sandor being in the Kingsguard is that he's the only one who actually embodies the values that a KG should - he's obedient without betraying the very vows of knighthood he never took.  He speaks up, and acts, to protect the defenseless and the weak.  The Sandor Clegane we're introduced to in A Game of Thrones wouldn't hesitate to abuse someone because he was told to.  You can rationalize it away all you want, but Sandor Clegane is under no apprehension that a noble girl like Sansa will find him desirable; he has no illusions about that.  So his actions in regards to her must have some other motive than "seduction".  It's that he's been changed, and for the better.

You say Sansa "managed" him, but what we see in that scene is Sansa too scared to "manage" anyone.  It's his exposure to her idealism and her quiet strength which "manages" him, because he's been changed by that exposure.

[the Last Teague]

13 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

 

You say Sansa "managed" him, but what we see in that scene is Sansa too scared to "manage" anyone.  It's his exposure to her idealism and her quiet strength which "manages" him, because he's been changed by that exposure.

The Hound doesn't abuse Sansa becouse he is fixated with her. With his last breath, he was sorry he didn't rape when he could. That's real Kingsguard stuff.

Sandor has killed all kind of innocent people, and doesn't show any remorse.

The Hound hadn't problems working for Joffrey. He deserted simply becouse he knew he would be punished for his coward conduct during Blackwater. 

Kidnaping Arya and menacing her with beatings isn't chivalric stuff.

Sansa idealism had some influence on him? Sure he was impressed by her innocence. But not enough to change his spots. Has he changed? The Seven knows. But too little, too late.

Having Clegane in the KGs shows how low it has sunk the institution during Joffrey's reign.

[Lord Varys]

17 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

I mean, if you don't perceive it, then nothing I can say is going to change your mind.  But look at who he was.  An obedient dog, willing to murder without a second thought on behalf of his Lannister masters, because to his mind the entire concept of knighthood and chivalry was a lie, so why not embrace the underlying truth and not trouble himself about it?  And then he comes into contact with Sansa, someone with just as much reason to be disillusioned with the chivalric ideals of Westeros as he was, but who maintains a quiet faith in those ideal, even when the reality is nowhere near them.  It's that exposure which leads to him protecting Sansa. You don't see character growth, when Sandor rode down and needlessly killed Micah for no reason but that he was ordered to, but then refuses to stoop to beating an innocent child?

An very beautiful child he wants to fuck. I assume you, too, try to show your best side when interacting with a person you want to get into your bed - or whose 'love' you want to win, if you prefer romantic vocabulary.

And Sandor does not refuse to beat Sansa - he is simply not commanded to do it. That is a difference. Joffrey never insisted that Sandor do it. It is pretty obvious what would have happened if Joffrey had commanded and then insisted that Sandor do it, no?

What Sandor causes to be obsessed with Sansa is that she is the same stupid and naive child he once was - he sees himself in her, just as Littlefinger sees himself in her, too. This certainly causes him to realize what kind of a fuck-up he has become, but he doesn't change. What breaks him is the fire. That he is nowhere near a good or even better man one can see when he completely fucks up his last meeting with Sansa. He is there to fuck her - sure, he doesn't do it, but he also fails to do the obvious thing to actually offer her to take her to her brother and mother. And one assumes that part of the reason why he doesn't do that is that he didn't want Sansa to go back to them. Had he taken her with him he would have kept her for himself, he wouldn't have restored her to her family.

He only does that later with Arya who he doesn't really care about and who he just tries to use as coin to win himself a new life. Sure, after the Red Wedding he doesn't discard her, but that's hardly surprising. They are both alone with essentially no perspective whatsoever so they can just as well stick together and try to get to the Vale.

17 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

The whole point of Sandor being in the Kingsguard is that he's the only one who actually embodies the values that a KG should - he's obedient without betraying the very vows of knighthood he never took.  He speaks up, and acts, to protect the defenseless and the weak.  The Sandor Clegane we're introduced to in A Game of Thrones wouldn't hesitate to abuse someone because he was told to.  You can rationalize it away all you want, but Sandor Clegane is under no apprehension that a noble girl like Sansa will find him desirable; he has no illusions about that.  So his actions in regards to her must have some other motive than "seduction".  It's that he's been changed, and for the better.

Considering that Sandor actually abandoned his king he is the worst kind of KG you could imagine - and also the worst kind of knight considering that protecting KL from Stannis' men was not only protecting the king and his family but also the innocent denizens of KL, no? He failed there, too.

Sandor certainly understands that he is completely unworthy of Sansa, but this doesn't mean her beauty and desirability do not consciously and unconsciously affect his behavior when he is around. Beautiful women make all men behave like morons, even if they are very aware that they will never win their love.

The bottom line is that one is fooled by the interactions of two characters in a particular POV if one believes that Sandor was made a better guy by Sansa. Sandor gets to Sansa because of the Stockholm syndrome, basically. He is one of her main gaolers, but also the kindest/least ugly in his interactions with her. They also share a secret (from her POV at least, no idea how many other people know about Sandor's burning), also helping Sandor to get into Sansa's head. That she starts to view him differently tells us little to nothing about Sandor's actual state of mind.

To what degree we see later in the Vale with the imagined kiss - but chances are that this is no sign of 'love' on Sansa's part but rather Sandor successfully shaping her developing sexuality, causing her to develop a thing from strong men with violence management issues. We will have to see where she goes from there after she finally has her first actual affair

[cpg2016]

6 hours ago, the Last Teague said:

The Hound hadn't problems working for Joffrey. He deserted simply becouse he knew he would be punished for his coward conduct during Blackwater. 

Sure.  And remind me why, if he's still such an amoral tool, he doesn't kidnap/rape/do really anything at all to Sansa before leaving?  I'm not calling Sandor a hero or a character worth emulating, or that any good intentions he has wipe away the villain he was (much like Jaime), merely that he's grown from the person he was when we first meet him.  That Sandor wouldn't have hesitated to take what he wanted without a second's remorse.

[Syl of Syl]

Yeh, we don't get to see much of Ryam Redwyne's supposedly legendary exploits, but we get some other pretty good characters. Pate the Woodcock seemed pretty cool, and I thought the story of Criston Cole was pretty fascinating. The Kingsguard was all over the story (in a bad way) during the regency of Aegon III. I think the main takeaway from Fire & Blood is how the Kingsguard was used in different ways over history. Jaehaerys was clearly a brilliant ruler and the way he chose his kingsguard reflects that. Meanwhile, Aegon III's weakness was that he was easily led by others which is reflected in his kingsguard.