Still not king Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 I am in the process of researching my family tree and have run across marriages of 6-21 years difference at least 15% of the time. Yep. My grandad did our family tree and got back to the late 1500s. Soldiers the lot of 'em, guess that explains my temper... Anyway, one thing you notice right away is how people married both three and four times - dying in childbed was the most common cause of death for women. After a year or two, the man would remarry, to have a companion in life (and to get away from raising ten kids on his own). The women remarried as well, of course - older men have the habit of dying (sp?) off eventually. One of my female ancestors buried five husbands over a ten year period. In Westeros you have the maesters though, who seem pretty capable in the art of medicine compared to European docs in the fifteenth century... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Last Frey Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 Sooth. In many ways (hygene, medicine, capacity for tolerating other religions) Westeros seems more like the medieval Middle East than Medieval Europe. Based on what I've seen, that goes for marriage ages, as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjen Snow Posted May 4, 2007 Share Posted May 4, 2007 Shadowcat's points about the cloaks and Sandor/Sansa being taken as kin blew me away. Good work! There better be more to the Sansa/Sandor story. Hopefully, he will leave the monks and take service for Sansa but like many relationships I think there is more power in there not physically consummating it and preserving the wonder and all. I hope it ends up that infatuation neither can do anything about but that they see each other everyday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonsdawn Posted May 4, 2007 Share Posted May 4, 2007 Would it make political sense for Sansa to marry Sandor? By doing that, she denies the greedy ones their claim to Winterfell through her, and she's got a loyal dog ready to fight for her and her pack when the time comes. I could see the new High Septon allowing her to annul the marriage to Tyrion, given that she was a hostage, was crying, he cloaked her standing on a fool and it was unconsummated, especially if she says she wants to wed again for love (she doesn't have to say who to). There's not much Lannister love in Kings Landing right now, after all, what with Cersei, and Tyrion's vanished, so what's the point of insisting they stay married? If she sends out word of Littlefinger's role in Joff's death (and all his other moves) and thus pretty much clears hers and Tyrion's names, would it be safe for her to request that annulment from the Vale? I am so hoping she crushes Lf. And besides, can you think of anyone better than Sandor to keep Rickon from going completely feral, if he's truly managed to lose that anger of his? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redcandle17 Posted May 4, 2007 Author Share Posted May 4, 2007 Would it make political sense for Sansa to marry Sandor? By doing that, she denies the greedy ones their claim to Winterfell through her, and she's got a loyal dog ready to fight for her and her pack when the time comes. I could see the new High Septon allowing her to annul the marriage to Tyrion, given that she was a hostage, was crying, he cloaked her standing on a fool and it was unconsummated, especially if she says she wants to wed again for love (she doesn't have to say who to). There's not much Lannister love in Kings Landing right now, after all, what with Cersei, and Tyrion's vanished, so what's the point of insisting they stay married? If she sends out word of Littlefinger's role in Joff's death (and all his other moves) and thus pretty much clears hers and Tyrion's names, would it be safe for her to request that annulment from the Vale? I am so hoping she crushes Lf. And besides, can you think of anyone better than Sandor to keep Rickon from going completely feral, if he's truly managed to lose that anger of his? God, no one would love to see Sansa marry Sandor more than me but it's not feasible. She needs to marry someone who can give the Starks an army to reclaim the North. I do think it's not impossible to hope that she keeps him around for a lifelong affair like Cersei and Jaime. She is very fond of the story of Queen Naerys and the Dragonknight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sijjvra Visz Posted May 4, 2007 Share Posted May 4, 2007 The Hound is 6'6", thirty years old, posessed of only one skill set (brutal killing), and infatuated with a child. Would someone please tell me why he makes such a good potential husband? Up until quite recent times, and still true in some societies of the world, it is COMMON for a young girl to marry an 'older' man. Look at Walder Frey. Now, I'm not saying the Hound is great husband material... but maybe Sandor Clegane is? Let's not forget, many hints to his being 'reborn' as Sandor, not the Hound. Yes, he was a brutal killer... but so is nearly everyone else in the series. The difference is Sandor ADMITS it, and that is part of why Sansa had a strange 'attraction' (...I use that lightly) to him. He was honest when no one else would be. Sure, he's scarred on one side and it makes him ugly, but hey... would you rather marry a handsome prince who is a total bastard, coward, and a liar...or an ugly man that will at least be honest about things? That was the contrast between Joff and Sandor. Personally, I think Sandor is one of the best non POVs (heck one of the best characters) in the series. He's an anti-hero. He does awful things, and at the same time, many fans of the series enjoy his character very much because we see WHY he has turned out as he has. There's probably few readers that did not feel a little sick to think about Gregor burning his little brother's face off over the toy knight, and the spiral that it threw Sandor into because of that toy knight...and the irony that followed. I'd like to add I don't think Sansa will marry him. But I do think there's more to their really odd 'romance' yet to come. I don't see an affair or a brief interlude as out of the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_BlauerDragon Posted May 4, 2007 Share Posted May 4, 2007 Hmm, you've got a point there. I have no doubt Littlefinger's affection will get more intimate as time goes by, but I think he'll be smart enough to make sure it doesn't have more dire consequences than it has to. On the other hand, it's hard to know who the father is, innit...? I mean, after she's well married to Harry. Children aren't born with goatees, after all...nor burn scars... The undoing of many such men as LF (by men such as, I am referring to child molestors) is that despite all of his patience and scheming when it comes down to it the temptation and the desire to get into that "castle" will make him abnormally careless and even cause him to completely abandon all sense of reason and planning. He'll get the smell of her "Scent" in his brain and he'll go at her like a dog in heat... I don't know that she'll end up with Sandor right away, but I think that would be a good match up... personally, I wouldn't mind seeing her end up with some base-born bastard to raise... maybe she'll break free from LF, make a run for it... and end up selling her services a time or two to pay for her passage... Wouldn't that be a great scene to have written out? The prissy little princess selling her maidenhead like a common whore to some random drunken commoner for a few coins, and ending up with a bastard to raise... Ah, it would be such bittersweat irony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sijjvra Visz Posted May 4, 2007 Share Posted May 4, 2007 The fact I've come to realize Sansa was very much a child (what was she at the start, eleven? twelve years old?) and had been brought up to believe in rainbows and fairy tales has made me hate her less than I did at the start several years ago when I picked the first few books in the series up. Also the for the fact I think she'll end up smarter than her mom by the end of the series. And of course, because she was the only person that could see any sort of good in someone who was otherwise an awful man (Sandor). And there's the beauty and the beast aspect of the whole 'romance'....thing....between them. I know GRRM isn't usually one to let his fans have a nice, happy love story, but hey... they can't ALL be morbid endings all the time, right? I mean, not even real life works out that way. I just want to see Sandor x Sansa just once is my point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redcandle17 Posted May 5, 2007 Author Share Posted May 5, 2007 maybe she'll break free from LF, make a run for it... and end up selling her services a time or two to pay for her passage... Wouldn't that be a great scene to have written out? The prissy little princess selling her maidenhead like a common whore to some random drunken commoner for a few coins, and ending up with a bastard to raise... Ah, it would be such bittersweat irony. I think there's a better chance of the High Septon converting to R'hllorism. Seriously though, I think something like that may happen with Harry the Heir. Joffrey never tried anything with Sansa while she was his financee most likely because of his age and later Tyrion prevented him from doing anything to her; Sandor clearly wanted her but never tried to touch her; and Littlefinger contents himself with "fatherly" kisses. Harry sounds like a very randy boy(knocking up two girls before he's even been knighted) and he'll be introduced to her as Alayne, Littlefinger's bastard. And Lothor Brune can't go cutting up Harry the Heir like he did Marillion. Things could get interesting and unfortunate for Sansa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_BlauerDragon Posted May 5, 2007 Share Posted May 5, 2007 But the 5year gap is gone, so if GRRM decides for Sansa to get dirty she will be younger. George is no shrinking violet, he made Dany sexually active as a 13 yo and had Jaime and Cersei play with each other even before puberty hit them. The age of consent is 16 in my country, and way lower in many other countries (13, Spain; 14, Italy; etc) - this ain't California. GRRM will do whatever the plot requires. And in Westeros an age difference of fifteen-twenty years would be pretty common among the upper (and uper middle) class, as it were in the west a few hundred years ago. Actually the age of consent is still fairly low in many U.S. states... in my home state of N.M. you can get married at 16 with parental consent and at 14 with the consent of parents and a judge. So it isn't absurd at all to think that Sansa is about to get the ever-loving snot pounded out of her (in a sexual sense) in a chapter coming our way very, very quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_BlauerDragon Posted May 5, 2007 Share Posted May 5, 2007 I think there's a better chance of the High Septon converting to R'hllorism. Seriously though, I think something like that may happen with Harry the Heir. Joffrey never tried anything with Sansa while she was his financee most likely because of his age and later Tyrion prevented him from doing anything to her; Sandor clearly wanted her but never tried to touch her; and Littlefinger contents himself with "fatherly" kisses. Harry sounds like a very randy boy(knocking up two girls before he's even been knighted) and he'll be introduced to her as Alayne, Littlefinger's bastard. And Lothor Brune can't go cutting up Harry the Heir like he did Marillion. Things could get interesting and unfortunate for Sansa. I think that LF would go stark raving madd (no punn intended) thinking about anyone getting into Sansa before him. He could go there and then not care who followed, but I don't think he'd be able to live with someone else having the first rites. I also don't think he'll be able to stick to "Fatherly kisses" for much longer. It is a small step from there to friendly "Thank you" blow job. Then it's another small step... and so on and so forth... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Monkey Posted May 5, 2007 Share Posted May 5, 2007 Actually the age of consent is still fairly low in many U.S. states... in my home state of N.M. you can get married at 16 with parental consent and at 14 with the consent of parents and a judge. So it isn't absurd at all to think that Sansa is about to get the ever-loving snot pounded out of her (in a sexual sense) in a chapter coming our way very, very quickly. Hopefully, it won't be with Sandor or LF. LF is way too slimy and Sandor... well, he tried to impress Arya in ASOS by bragging about how he almost made out with Sansa. Can you imagine how obnoxious he'll be if he ever has sex with her? He'd be telling everyone he meets! Ugh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sijjvra Visz Posted May 5, 2007 Share Posted May 5, 2007 Hopefully, it won't be with Sandor or LF. LF is way too slimy and Sandor... well, he tried to impress Arya in ASOS by bragging about how he almost made out with Sansa. Can you imagine how obnoxious he'll be if he ever has sex with her? He'd be telling everyone he meets! Ugh! I'm not sure he did it so much to impress her as to shock her or disgust her maybe. Then again, if Sandor is no longer the Hound, would he be as likely to brag? It's hard to say. He seems to only to really tell certain things to certain people, oddly enough it seems to be the Stark sisters he's most apt to blab things to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redcandle17 Posted May 5, 2007 Author Share Posted May 5, 2007 Hopefully, it won't be with Sandor or LF. LF is way too slimy and Sandor... well, he tried to impress Arya in ASOS by bragging about how he almost made out with Sansa. Can you imagine how obnoxious he'll be if he ever has sex with her? He'd be telling everyone he meets! Ugh! I loved the Arya-Sandor scenes so much. Arya must have been annoyed as hell at having to listen to a man she hates talk about the sister she also hates. As for Sandor, I can't imagine his reason for talking about Sansa to Arya. He might have been trying to reassure her that she was in no danger from him, but telling a 10yr you want her 12yr sister isn't very reassuring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mortimer the Vile Posted May 5, 2007 Share Posted May 5, 2007 Dogs don't kill wolves automatically or vice versa (considering that most domesticated dogs are a fraction the size and strength of a wolf) They sniff each others arse and bark fiercly is what they do. Although that doesn't agree with common folk lore or writer's ignorance of nature. Wolves hump dogs and dogs hump wolves. If they are in season. Or just horny. But if they are feeling mean they may kill each other. But are more likely to just bite an ear off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mortimer the Vile Posted May 5, 2007 Share Posted May 5, 2007 ...One of my female ancestors buried five husbands over a ten year period... That was back in the good ol days before modern forensic science and chemistry could detect that she'd poisoned them all for their life insurance. They "bought the farm". Literally. Hehehe! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkess Posted May 5, 2007 Share Posted May 5, 2007 I've seen it mentioned a couple times now, and I must say, I don't think Arya hates Sansa. At one point she thought she hated Sansa, but I doubt she really did. And now I think even she realizes that she doesn't hate Sansa, and that her sister may be her last remaining relative. I certainly think there is a possibility for a good relationship between the Stark sisters next time they meet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melon Posted May 5, 2007 Share Posted May 5, 2007 After reading this whole post i JUST get this image out of my head of Sansa standing with Sandor behind her matching into the ruins of winterfell and saying "im home". Its not that great but it would just be so cool i think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redcandle17 Posted May 5, 2007 Author Share Posted May 5, 2007 After reading this whole post i JUST get this image out of my head of Sansa standing with Sandor behind her matching into the ruins of winterfell and saying "im home". Its not that great but it would just be so cool i think I prefer to imagine Sansa's reaction to seeing Sandor again after spending a couple of years thinking about a kiss that never happened. That would be very interesting. Would she wonder why he wasn't trying to kiss her again and become upset, or would she try to kiss him? It's much more fun to ponder than the who's who of secret Targs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonsdawn Posted May 5, 2007 Share Posted May 5, 2007 Does anyone have an idea of how long it's already been since they've seen each other? And at what point does Sansa become an "unreliable narrator"? Is she unreliable the whole time, or only after she starts thinking of the kiss that wasn't? Is she unreliable on "that" night? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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