Sandor/Sansa

[vlada]

Well,the main reason they don't get along is Jofrey.Sandor was very loyal and protective of him,while Tyrion used to put him in place(like situation in Winterfell etc.).Plus Tyrion basically is a nice guy while the Hound was bloody butcher.

Tyrion is smart, Sandor is not

I disagree with this.Sandor is nowhere near stupid.Bitter,cynical,sarcastic but not stupid.

[Sandor's_Mandy1]

Does anyone think that Sandor will be killed off before he and Sansa's...whatever...comes to a climax? What if...

Sandor goes to fight (Gregor, possibly?) and by some mischance is killed. His last word as he stares up into the sky, his life bleeding out onto the ground underneath him, is whispered, "Sansa," as a tear rolls down his burned cheek?

OR

Sandor is not killed in a fight, but is wounded. The wound, like the one on his leg, festers and Elder Brother is not around to fix it. Sandor perishes, his last last word is whispered, "Sansa," as a tear rolls down his burned cheek?

OR, OR!!

What if he just never leaves the Quiet Isle?? OR what if he really IS dead and we're all wrong about the Gravedigger theory???? AAAAAHHHHHHH!!! There is no way George would do that to all of us weepy, hopelessly hopeless romantics. No way. He wrote the screenplay for Beauty and the Beast, gosh darn it! He couldn't possibly!!!!!!!!! I would cry. Not even kidding.

[AsphodelElysium]

I'm totally afraid of something like that happening, but I think GRRM would be crueller about it. Sansa is running toward Sandor while he is battling *insert name here* probably in defense of Sansa. Sandor gets speared, stabbed, etc. He and Sansa make eye contact as she freezes in shock, Sandor whispers, "little bird," and then slumps forward dead. Then the fallout, Sansa screaming, crying, etc. It makes me physically ill even thinking about this outcome, but...that's where my concern lies.

[King Bronn]

Check this out, guys:

ACOK, Sansa II, when Sandor is talking to Sansa: "A hound will die for you, but never lie to you."

Foreshadowing?! Man, I hope not. That would be the most tragically romantic thing ever.

I have this theory that SanSan is the overarching love story of the series. By that I mean, other relationships have come and gone, and will come and go. But SanSan was set up in the first book, has been hinted at endlessly, and they still haven't even KISSED yet (except in Sansa's mind). So I think it will continue to build and then climax near the end. I believe they will get together... but then will someone die? :cry: Depends on if GRRM wants to give us at least one happy love story.

[Sandor's_Mandy1]

I'm totally afraid of something like that happening, but I think GRRM would be crueller about it. Sansa is running toward Sandor while he is battling *insert name here* probably in defense of Sansa. Sandor gets speared, stabbed, etc. He and Sansa make eye contact as she freezes in shock, Sandor whispers, "little bird," and then slumps forward dead. Then the fallout, Sansa screaming, crying, etc. It makes me physically ill even thinking about this outcome, but...that's where my concern lies.

Oh man. I thought mine thoughts were bad!

Check this out, guys:

ACOK, Sansa II, when Sandor is talking to Sansa: "A hound will die for you, but never lie to you."

Foreshadowing?! Man, I hope not. That would be the most tragically romantic thing ever.

I have this theory that SanSan is the overarching love story of the series. By that I mean, other relationships have come and gone, and will come and go. But SanSan was set up in the first book, has been hinted at endlessly, and they still haven't even KISSED yet (except in Sansa's mind). So I think it will continue to build and then climax near the end. I believe they will get together... but then will someone die? :cry: Depends on if GRRM wants to give us at least one happy love story.

Yikes!!! I REALLY hope that's not foreshadowing...but it wouldn't really surprise me. Good thought.

I agree, also, that they may fall into the polarity theme and therefore may actually continue on towards some happy-ish ending. At least I really, really, really hope.

[King Bronn]

I agree, also, that they may fall into the polarity theme and therefore may actually continue on towards some happy-ish ending. At least I really, really, really hope.

Well, "bittersweet ending" must mean SOMEONE comes out happy, right?

Despite the series being gritty and cynical, and GRRM's reputation for being ruthless, I think it's pretty clear he's a romantic at heart. And like you said, he wrote for Beauty and the Beast.

Uh-oh, getting my hopes up...

[loathsome warg]

Check this out, guys:

ACOK, Sansa II, when Sandor is talking to Sansa: "A hound will die for you, but never lie to you."

Foreshadowing?! Man, I hope not. That would be the most tragically romantic thing ever.

Ah ha, but what if the "Hound" death is strictly metaphorical as seen in the Gravedigger theory? Sandor is just Sandor now, without the "Hound" persona. Hence, the Hound had to die to be with Sansa.

Also, in the recent Q&A with GRRM someone asked if Sandor and Sansa will meet again and he said: "Why, the Hound is dead, and Sansa may be dead as well. There's only Alayne Stone."

So, if anything, I think we'll get to see Sandor trying to deal with "Alayne" with all her newfound guile and ability to lie as taught by Littlefinger.

[Trackrunner]

Tyrion is smart, Sandor is not

I'm not really sure what you're using as a reference point. I think Sandor has made a few smart moves: the way he handled the ferrymen (giving them paper so they wouldn’t trust the BWB when they came along) seemed fairly tricky, for example. I'd say he has street smarts if nothing else.

And on the other hand, Sandor is brave, Tyrion is one step to be coward

Again, I must disagree. Tyrion picks his battles when he can, but that doesn't make him a coward. I'd say he was awfully brave to risk the wildfires of the Blackwater, eh?

I dont now, what are everybody see in Sandor and Sansa posible love affair. They are so diffrent.

Superficially, yes. But when you get down to it, there a distinct possibility Sandor harbors the same sort of storybook fantasies that Sansa does. I believe GRRM once remarked that Sandor used to love knights, but became disillusioned when Gregor was knighted. "Disillusion" implies (to me) that he could be "reillusioned," as it were.

So if Sansa wants a true knight, and Sandor secretly wants to be a true knight…

Well, there is something between them, but I dont think that is love. Maybe they have a one-night sex, but serious relationship? No.

Not that you necessarily want my opinion, but you might have a look at post #299.

Sansa is to clever for Sandor, but not for Tyrion. Yeah, I hope these two end is relationship. They are alredy in marriage, thought.

If you can give me some good evidence that Tyrion wants Sansa, I shall doff my hat to you. The issue was pretty well discussed from posts #314-340, so maybe you have something juicy to add or refute.

[Szar]

I disagree with this.Sandor is nowhere near stupid.Bitter,cynical,sarcastic but not stupid.

Not smart != stupid

[vlada]

?

[Szar]

The fact that Sandor is not smart does not make him stupid.

[Darthaemos]

Smart might not be the right word for Tyrion, to begin with. Crafty. Intelligent. Sly. Deceptive etc...

Sandor is methodical. Pragmatic. Efficient. Straight to the point. And definitely not stupid.

By the way, sorry if I'm going off topic, but has GRRM mentioned or leaked anywhere that Sandor didn't die and that he'll be in DwD?

[King Bronn]

Sandor strikes me as smart. Maybe not witty or educated, but he is very street smart and he knows how to read people, and he's quick to pick up what's going on. Also, he's a surprisingly eloquent speaker. Seriously, go back and read some of his lines. They could go in poems. Really grisly poems.

By the way, sorry if I'm going off topic, but has GRRM mentioned or leaked anywhere that Sandor didn't die and that he'll be in DwD?

So far he hasn't said if he'll be in ADWD. He did say in 2005 that we would "see him in action" again. I wonder if gravedigging counts as action.

[Szar]

Street smarts are not what is normally understood by 'smart'.

Didn't GRRM say he looked forward to finishing Sandor's storyline? I might be off here.

[Trackrunner]

Street smarts are not what is normally understood by 'smart'.

That's really a matter of perception. There are plenty of people less educated than I am whom I would still consider much smarter.

[Olenna]

I think people confuse Sandor's straightforwardness and lack of social finesse with stupidity. But they're not the same. We see over and over again in his conversations with Sansa that he's fully cognizant of the intrigue that goes on around him; he refrains from taking part in it because he sees it as wrong, not just because he knows he would be unsuccessful at it. He isn't dumb, he just doesn't like manipulating people. If anything, his contempt for the games that everyone around him plays and his refusal to be blinded by chivalric ideals from good common sense shows a capacity for independent thinking that the other courtiers don't share.

[Smaug]

I'm not really sure what you're using as a reference point. I think Sandor has made a few smart moves: the way he handled the ferrymen (giving them paper so they wouldn’t trust the BWB when they came along) seemed fairly tricky, for example. I'd say he has street smarts if nothing else.

Again, I must disagree. Tyrion picks his battles when he can, but that doesn't make him a coward. I'd say he was awfully brave to risk the wildfires of the Blackwater, eh?

Superficially, yes. But when you get down to it, there a distinct possibility Sandor harbors the same sort of storybook fantasies that Sansa does. I believe GRRM once remarked that Sandor used to love knights, but became disillusioned when Gregor was knighted. "Disillusion" implies (to me) that he could be "reillusioned," as it were.

So if Sansa wants a true knight, and Sandor secretly wants to be a true knight…

Not that you necessarily want my opinion, but you might have a look at post #299.

If you can give me some good evidence that Tyrion wants Sansa, I shall doff my hat to you. The issue was pretty well discussed from posts #314-340, so maybe you have something juicy to add or refute.

I dont said that Sandor is stupid, he is not. But you cannot caount Sandor with Tyrion, Cersei, Tywin, LF even Dany and Sansa. They are Players, Sandor is not clever as they, but he is like Jon, Jaime, Brienne and Oberyn.. list goes on...

And I dont said that Tyrion is a coward, he is one step to be coward. He cannot be compared with Jon, Tywin, Jaime, Brienne. Well he pick his fight when he must, but if there is chance to run he will run. Tyrion is my best charachter, I love that guy, but the fact are the facts.

Well, yes. But Snador is thirty years old,bully, and fighter, and Sansa is thirtheen years old girl, who just lost her pet, family, and her illusion of the world is broken.

They are to diffrent to my taste. I said that I prefer Ty&San, and Sandor and Arya would be much better pair.

If you wanted a prove that Tyrion wants Sansa, just read every his chapter in ASoS after the wedding.

Trackrunner, I has read the whole topic. Theme is very interesting and it was a pleasure to read so good talks. And I find a Tyrion vs Sandor &Sansa parts. They are the most interesting parts of this topic... for me.

[a_homeless_harpy]

In my opinion, Tyrion + Sansa would make a lot more sense than SanSan ship. Firstly, it would be a classic - Beauty and the Beast! Secondly, they would supplement each other in a perfect way: Tyrion has the experience, the pragmatism needed in such a cruel world, the wits and the intelligence Sansa sometimes lacked. Sansa is still very romantic, which would suit Tyrion perfectly, very attractive and obredient - not bad traits for a wife. Sandor, although physically stronger, is definitely too grim for her.

[Olenna]

Well, yes. But Snador is thirty years old,bully, and fighter, and Sansa is thirtheen years old girl, who just lost her pet, family, and her illusion of the world is broken.

They are to diffrent to my taste. I said that I prefer Ty&San, and Sandor and Arya would be much better pair.

If you wanted a prove that Tyrion wants Sansa, just read every his chapter in ASoS after the wedding.

I wouldn't mind Sandor/Arya, though they seemed to have more of a father-daughter dynamic. And just because they're alike doesn't mean that they're compatible.

But I've never understood why anyone thinks Sansa/Tyrion is plausible. Sansa finds him physically repellent even after she admits to herself that he's a nice guy, and in the long run Tyrion would find her boring. Sure, he got an erection on their wedding night, but that doesn't prove that he would enjoy spending the rest of his life with her. Tyrion wants someone witty and fun who can see past his looks. Sansa doesn't fit the bill; in fact, just about every other female character we've met would be more suitable than she is.

Sansa and Sandor aren't totally compatible either, but there's definitely some chemistry there, and fundamentally Sandor wants someone to protect and Sansa wants a true knight to protect her. Ironically, Sandor is the closest thing to a true knight that she has ever encountered. They're constantly fantasizing about each other. There's no such thing as a storybook romance in GRRM's world, and Sansa/Sandor is probably the best we can hope for. (In fact, for a lot of us, San/San is the ideal storybook romance of the series.)

[Sandor's Little Bird]

I think people confuse Sandor's straightforwardness and lack of social finesse with stupidity. But they're not the same. We see over and over again in his conversations with Sansa that he's fully cognizant of the intrigue that goes on around him; he refrains from taking part in it because he sees it as wrong, not just because he knows he would be unsuccessful at it. He isn't dumb, he just doesn't like manipulating people. If anything, his contempt for the games that everyone around him plays and his refusal to be blinded by chivalric ideals from good common sense shows a capacity for independent thinking that the other courtiers don't share.

I agree, and I think his self-loathing actually adds to the evidence that he is intelligent. After all, we see knights like Meryn Trant and Boros Blunt being ordered to beat a frightened, defenseless little girl, and they don't appear to think one way or the other about it; they just do what they're told. Sandor does what he's told, but it's obvious he thinks about it, too, and hates himself and the world for being that way. Now part of this is probably moralistic; Sandor somehow developed morals that tell him it's wrong to make empty vows when you know they are BS, and obviously Trant and Blunt didn't. Only an intelligent man would see and acknowledge his faults instead of trying to overlook or at least justify them ("I'm the same as you. Only difference is, I don't lie about what I am."). And I think Sandor's having even the strange moral code he has (about making vows) indicates intelligence - we don't see Gregor caring about keeping the vows he made, or not making vows he knows he won't be allowed to keep (such as promising to defend innocents knowing that if the king orders him to hurt or kill them, he will). Sandor had to get those ideas from somewhere, and the father who didn't punish Gregor for what he did to Sandor doesn't sound like an outstanding moral authority to me, nor like one who would have bothered to teach him. Sandor's not particularly witty like Tyrion or Jaime, but he is, I think, above average intelligence.