The theme of identity in ASOIAF: Tyrion

[Alyn Oakenfist]

One thing before we start, don't hijack this thread with how much you hate Tyrion or with anything about Tyrion and Sansa's wedding night. You already have a thread for that and have hijacked two other threads with it. I normally shouldn't mention this, but people seem to get particularly triggered when it comes to the subject, so if you do get triggered don't do it in this thread. With that said let's get tot it.

The first thing we hear about Tyrion Lannister are rumors and stories in the Winterfell courtyard, basically describing him as the Imp. Even from the get go before we even have a POV from him an identity conflict begins to appear, as when meeting Jon Tyrion reveals he's not really the Imp, but rather a intelligent, kind and most importantly highly emphatic individual, able to understand how others think incredibly easy. As he tells Jon himself he is using his identity as the Imp as shield, in order to defend himself. It is at this point that we finally begin to follow his POV. He doesn't really experience any internal change until he reaches Tywin camp, besides showing his intellect in escaping the Eyrie and recruiting the Mountain Clans for himself. It is when he meets Shae when things begin to change and we see a side we only briefly glimpses, the naive child. We already saw hints of that when he reaches the Wall, but it is at this point we finally see this in his interaction with Shae. While the Imp is the result of peoples hatred for him, something he long since learned to never internalize and just project outwards, he is far less capable when it comes to being loved, being as foolish and inexperienced as a child. As a result he is for one thing deluding himself when it comes to Shae. Meanwhile by the end of the book, Tyrion showing himself to be actually smart combined with Jaime's capture leads Tywin to make probably the most important decision in Tyrion's life and that is sending him to KL.

During ACOK and most of ASOS, Tyrion never having anything Impish internally stops being so even externally, becoming the hand of the King and doing a very fine job at it. However ironically he is seen as ''the Imp" now more then even before in spite of saving the city. It is here that the seeds of frustration put there so long ago by his family behind to bloom.

ASOS find Tyrion disfigured and bitter, being relegated to a bureaucrat. In the eyes of the world after his most heroic act he is now more the Imp then ever. To add more salt to the wound, his marriage to Sansa then happens. Here it is that Tyrion's naive side comes back into gear, hoping in vain he might find some love and happiness in Sansa. This of course fails, leading to him putting all his faith in goodness in Shae. And then Joffrey dies and he is arrested. Feeling now more then ever the injustice of it all he begin to lose it at the trial occasionally no longer thinking rationally. If that wasn't enough Shae finally testifies, finally leading to the last light in his life dying. Finally Tyrion snaps, betrayed, unloved, unappreciated, he comes to the conclusion that it would have been better if he really was the Imp, at least as a monster he could make all of them suffer. Still however Tyrion manages to maintain his sense of self. It is with Jaime however that all disintegrates. When Jaime frees him and confesses the truth about Tyrion, Tyrion's identity is thrown out the window, and the only thing left for him is hate. For now all his relations are severed, with Jaime, and hate fills him. Hate for himself, for what he was forced to do to his wife, but more importantly hate for his father. It is in this context, with everything channeled at his father, his sense of injustice, his hatred for him for being the first one to hate him foe being a dwarf, and for Tysha that Tyrion now fully engulfed in hate and goes and kills Tywin.

However even if death Tywin continues to haunt Tyrion. His killing of his own father bring out even more self hatred as well as a good dose of PTSD. Not only does he do that but Tywin refuses even in death to give his son any closure on Tysha. Tyrion is left in a situation worse then her being dead, he is left without knowing anything, with only himself in which to spill all the anger and no way to achieve catharsis. So, seeming in hate, not able to face all he has done, he abandons all and becomes that which he never was, the Imp, the demon monkey, choosing to use alcohol and rage to hide away his sorrow, his depression and his self-hatred. It is at Ilyrio faced with the mushrooms, that he is faced with the question, what does he have anymore. But while at similar points, Jaime, Dany and Theon were free, he is still haunted by his past and by his hatred. And so the only reason to live he has is revenge. With this in mind he arrives on the Shy Maiden. By now we can see how his naive hopefully part of him is dead. He no longer craves Lemore's affection as he would have, he just lusts for her, while with the slave whore in the brothel, he no longer cares or empathizes with her, he just tries to escape his misery, in the process adding more to his guilt and sorrow. It is only with Penny that he begins to snap back. Here at last he sees himself. Another person slowly eroded by years of prejudice and loathing and plunged into the abyss of guilt and hatred. It is in this mirror that he finally slowly start to come back. And for the first time in a long while he begins to fell something other then guilt and hatred, namely compassion. He arrives in Mereen no longer the Imp but no longer his old self either, but rather a cynical version of his old self, with only a flicker of light left inside.

It still remains to be seen how he will interact with Dany. Will he try and cling on the vengeance leading both him and Dany towards a dark path, or will he be inspired by Dany's ideals finally coming back from the dark abyss by serving for someone he actually believes in?

[chrisdaw]

Tyrion is not for serving, Tyrion is for Tyrion.

He's a messy complex character.

The disease of needing to be loved is the most straight-forward portion of his story. He craved so much the feeling of being loved by a beautiful girl that Shae could provide him that he turned a blind eye to it not being real, and allowed Shae to manipulate him. In Sansa he has a beautiful young wife becoming a master manipulator. The question on Tyrion's side will be can he this time accept Sansa doesn't love his person, and never will, and not allow her to rule him through the promise of her love.

He will have to answer if he is Lannister or Targaryen. He will ride a dragon, and have the power to destroy House Lannister, and so it will be for him to decide.

[Son of Man]

Tyrion is an ungrown man of maturity.  He doesn't have an identity crisis.  He knows who he is.  And hates who he is.  TL is a smart man in many ways but he is also emotionally vulnerable.  He would be considered an alcoholic today.  Born into a life of wealth but hampered by his appearance.  His emotions get the better of him.  So what will happen to him without dad's money to protect him?  I think it's the same predicament as Sansa's.  TL will have to find a benefactor and make himself useful.  He found that shelter in the sellsword company. 

TL is guilty of murdering his father.  That is a very black sin.  Men like TL, Jaime, Jorah, and Theon have all done very bad things.  Things so bad that they cannot pay for the crime with their lives.  But if any of them can forget about themselves and turn their gaze outwards instead.  Find a good person to serve and give of themselves completely.  That is the salvation open to them.  They need to forget about what they want for themselves and devote themselves to service.  TL and Jorah have this one chance for salvation.  Their sins can never be made right but they can do an equivalent amount of good to wash out the bad.  They can help young Daenerys beat the slavers and then win back her kingdom.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

On 4/20/2020 at 7:52 PM, chrisdaw said:

Tyrion is not for serving, Tyrion is for Tyrion

I wouldn't say he is for serving but he definitely isn't for Tyrion either. He is his own worst enemy. 

On 4/20/2020 at 7:52 PM, chrisdaw said:

The disease of needing to be loved is the most straight-forward portion of his story.

Ahh yes the ever horrible "disease" of needing to be loved. Don't we all want to be loved? It's magnified in Tyrion because he has never been loved. (Besides Tysha who he was told didn't love him truly) more than that though he thinks he cannot be loved. He believes he is unlovable. 

On 4/21/2020 at 6:43 PM, Son of Man said:

His emotions get the better of him. 

Not really. There are plenty of people who could suffer half of what he did before they snapped. He is actually pretty good at keeping his emotions in check until he reaches his breaking point. 

On 4/21/2020 at 6:43 PM, Son of Man said:

So what will happen to him without dad's money to protect him?

I think his own wit has helped him along much more than his dad's money. Tbf though, had he been low-born he may not have made it out of infanthood. 

On 4/21/2020 at 6:43 PM, Son of Man said:

TL will have to find a benefactor and make himself useful.  He found that shelter in the sellsword company

I don't think that should be a problem. He doesn't seem to have any issue making use of himself. 

On 4/21/2020 at 6:43 PM, Son of Man said:

TL is guilty of murdering his father.  That is a very black sin.  Men like TL, Jaime, Jorah, and Theon have all done very bad things.  Things so bad that they cannot pay for the crime with their lives.

I disagree. Tyrion's father deserved what he got IMO. That was Tywin's payment for the evil he has done, no need for Tyrion to pay with his life or otherwise. 

Very nice Post OP! 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

On 4/21/2020 at 2:52 AM, chrisdaw said:

The disease of needing to be loved is the most straight-forward portion of his story. He craved so much the feeling of being loved by a beautiful girl that Shae could provide him that he turned a blind eye to it not being real, and allowed Shae to manipulate him. In Sansa he has a beautiful young wife becoming a master manipulator. The question on Tyrion's side will be can he this time accept Sansa doesn't love his person, and never will, and not allow her to rule him through the promise of her love.

As I outlined, I don't think his problem is needing to be loved, but rather being completely inexperience in love. He was never truly loved by anybody and as such is very naive in what it truly is. This is the reason why he deludes himself that Shae actually cares for him or that Sansa might love him.

On 4/21/2020 at 2:52 AM, chrisdaw said:

He will have to answer if he is Lannister or Targaryen. He will ride a dragon, and have the power to destroy House Lannister, and so it will be for him to decide.

Nah mate he won't ride anything. He is not a Targaryen he is a pure blooded Lannister. Maybe Jaime and Cersei are Aerys's but Tyrion is clearly Tywin's. That's one of the main things about him, something that drives Tywin mad, he is truly and fully Tywin's son, his only child to inherit his sharp mind.

On 4/22/2020 at 1:43 AM, Son of Man said:

He knows who he is.  And hates who he is.

Which Tyrion? Tyrion in ACOK or Tyrion in ADWD? Cause I don't know how to tell it to you but they're basically different characters.

On 4/22/2020 at 1:43 AM, Son of Man said:

TL is guilty of murdering his father.  That is a very black sin.  Men like TL, Jaime, Jorah, and Theon have all done very bad things.  Things so bad that they cannot pay for the crime with their lives.

BS. Let's see all the shit Tywin did to Tyrion:

1. Making his childhood a living hell. This includes but is not limited to: encouraging Cersei to constantly bully him, never doing anything to stop him. Beating down any dreams and ambitions he might have. And probably the main one, never loving him and showing that constantly. You can imagine how nice it is to grow up being bullies by everyone, having never known your mother and having a father that doesn't love you and constantly shows that. And we still haven't gotten to the good stuff yet.

2. Tysha. Besides having the poor girl raped by his guardsmen and then making Tyrion do it (must I even say how awful this is and that Tywin would get arrested for rape, and molestation in our world). The even worse part is completely breaking Tyrion psyche by making up the story that she was a whore. 

3. Further degrading Tyrion and humiliating him. Refusing to let him go on travels, charging him with the Casterly Rock sewers, and probably hundreds more such degrading things. I'm actually surprised that by the beginning of the books Tyrion is still sane and normal.

4. The immediate aftermath of Blackwater. Yes Tyrion thanks for saving the city, now I'm going to deny you any kind of glory or recognition, make a speech that it just every single shade of awful and lash someone I believe you held dear.

5. Forcing him to marry a child, and then constantly trying to make him rape said child. Kudos on Tyrion for having balls of steel.

6. And finally the trial. Trying to have him banished to the wall despite probably being aware of his innocence, is only the first horribly shitty action. Next we have not even allowing Tyrion to cross examine, sentencing him to die when he could have opted for something like the Wall, and finally sleeping with Shae, not only proofing he's a complete fucking hypocrite, but choosing Shae just for shits and giggles and in a final thing he does to stick it to his son.

So to recap he have, a lifetime of wearing down Tyrion, trying everything he could to humiliate him, forcing him to RAPE his wife, while still a teenager, flogging someone he though Tyrion held dear, giving him a speech made of pure poison instead of even the smallest hint of glory, then constantly trying to make him rape a 12 year old, and finally trying to down right kill him, or at least banish him to the wall. Tywin had it coming, there was nothing wrong in what Tyrion did to him.

[chrisdaw]

13 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

As I outlined, I don't think his problem is needing to be loved, but rather being completely inexperience in love. He was never truly loved by anybody and as such is very naive in what it truly is. This is the reason why he deludes himself that Shae actually cares for him or that Sansa might love him.

The wording is GRRM's.

Quote

Robert wanted smiles and cheers, always, so he went where he found them, to his friends and his whores. Robert wanted to be loved. My brother Tyrion has the same disease. Do you want to be loved, Sansa?

He desperately wants to feel loved, Shae can provide him that feeling of love, he acts against his better judgement and to his overall detriment to maintain that feeling.

It extends beyond his intimate relationships and to how he is seen by the masses.

When Tywin explains what happened to the Targaryen children Tyrion replies,

Quote

It might serve, Tyrion had to concede, but the snake will not be happy. "Far be it from me to question your cunning, Father, but in your place I do believe I'd have let Robert Baratheon bloody his own hands."

And Tywin explains,

Quote

Lord Tywin stared at him as if he had lost his wits. "You deserve that motley, then. We had come late to Robert's cause. It was necessary to demonstrate our loyalty. When I laid those bodies before the throne, no man could doubt that we had forsaken House Targaryen forever. And Robert's relief was palpable. As stupid as he was, even he knew that Rhaegar's children had to die if his throne was ever to be secure. Yet he saw himself as a hero, and heroes do not kill children."

Robert has the disease of needing to be loved. Wants to be the hero. Robert wouldn't want to have been seen as the children's killers.

Tyrion has this same disease. Tyrion like Robert wouldn't want to be seen killing the children. He wants to play the hero, be loved.

Quote

"—your whore." She laid a finger to his lips. "I know. I'd be your lady, but I never can. Else you'd take me to the feast. It doesn't matter. I like being a whore for you, Tyrion. Just keep me, my lion, and keep me safe."

"I shall," he promised. Fool, fool, the voice inside him screamed. Why did you say that? You came here to send her away! Instead he kissed her once more.

Shae manipulates him by making him her hero.

And this is really what is at the heart of his whole mental breakdown.

Quote

"Don't you see the jest, Lord Varys?" Tyrion waved a hand at the shuttered windows, at all the sleeping city. "Storm's End is fallen and Stannis is coming with fire and steel and the gods alone know what dark powers, and the good folk don't have Jaime to protect them, nor Robert nor Renly nor Rhaegar nor their precious Knight of Flowers. Only me, the one they hate." He laughed again. "The dwarf, the evil counselor, the twisted little monkey demon. I'm all that stands between them and chaos."

It is his chance to save them all and be the hero.

Quote

"Nothing but this: I did not do it. Yet now I wish I had." He turned to face the hall, that sea of pale faces. "I wish I had enough poison for you all. You make me sorry that I am not the monster you would have me be, yet there it is. I am innocent, but I will get no justice here. You leave me no choice but to appeal to the gods. I demand trial by battle."

But Tywin stole his lunch and everyone still hates him.

And therein lies the future to his arc. Playing the hero. At an intimate level Sansa will call upon Tyrion to save her, so that she may manipulate him.

Quote

"My lord is brave," Alayne said, when she felt him shaking. "I'm so frightened I can hardly talk, but not you."

She felt him nod. "The Winged Knight was brave, and so am I," he boasted to her bodice. "I'm an Arryn."

"Will my Sweetrobin hold me tight?" she asked, though he was already holding her so tightly that she could scarcely breathe.

Like she does with Robert.

In the realm wide picture, or KL at least, he has already once saved them from the hungry foreign red god's army and chosen one. The chance will arise to do it again, he'll just need some publicists in his corner to make something of it the second time.

13 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Nah mate he won't ride anything. He is not a Targaryen he is a pure blooded Lannister. Maybe Jaime and Cersei are Aerys's but Tyrion is clearly Tywin's. That's one of the main things about him, something that drives Tywin mad, he is truly and fully Tywin's son, his only child to inherit his sharp mind.

Tyrion will ride Viserion. The dragon's name and colouring is for him, a carry over from when the whole series was only going to take a few years and there was no present day internet for collective dissection, when GRRM could afford to be on the nose with foreshadowing.

These passages of foreshadowing don't happen by accident.

Quote

"Salloreon, as it please my lord. If the King's Hand will permit, I should be most honored to forge him a suit of armor suitable to his House and high office." Two of the others sniggered, but Salloreon plunged ahead, heedless. "Plate and scale, I think. The scales gilded bright as the sun, the plate enameled a deep Lannister crimson. I would suggest a demon's head for a helm, crowned with tall golden horns. When you ride into battle, men will shrink away in fear."

A demon's head, Tyrion thought ruefully, now what does that say of me? "Master Salloreon, I plan to fight the rest of my battles from this chair. It's links I need, not demon horns.

Or keep happening over the course of the series.

Quote

The white cyvasse dragon ended up at Tyrion's feet. He scooped it off the carpet and wiped it on his sleeve, but some of the Yunkish blood had collected in the fine grooves of the carving, so the pale wood seemed veined with red. "All hail our beloved queen, Daenerys." Be she alive or be she dead. He tossed the bloody dragon in the air, caught it, grinned. 

Tyrion's Lannister or Targ identity struggle is well flagged in his ADWD dream.

Quote

That night Tyrion Lannister dreamed of a battle that turned the hills of Westeros as red as blood. He was in the midst of it, dealing death with an axe as big as he was, fighting side by side with Barristan the Bold and Bittersteel as dragons wheeled across the sky above them. In the dream he had two heads, both noseless. His father led the enemy, so he slew him once again. Then he killed his brother, Jaime, hacking at his face until it was a red ruin, laughing every time he struck a blow. Only when the fight was finished did he realize that his second head was weeping.

Tryion dreams he has two heads like Arg bastard Maelys (who we are given the history of prior to this passage), warring in Westeros such as a Blackfyre rebellion. One head revels in bringing house Lannister fire and blood, and one head weeps for it. Which house will he choose and which will he forsake? That's where the arc is headed.

[Son of Man]

On 4/23/2020 at 5:54 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

As I outlined, I don't think his problem is needing to be loved, but rather being completely inexperience in love. He was never truly loved by anybody and as such is very naive in what it truly is. This is the reason why he deludes himself that Shae actually cares for him or that Sansa might love him.

Nah mate he won't ride anything. He is not a Targaryen he is a pure blooded Lannister. Maybe Jaime and Cersei are Aerys's but Tyrion is clearly Tywin's. That's one of the main things about him, something that drives Tywin mad, he is truly and fully Tywin's son, his only child to inherit his sharp mind.

Which Tyrion? Tyrion in ACOK or Tyrion in ADWD? Cause I don't know how to tell it to you but they're basically different characters.

BS. Let's see all the shit Tywin did to Tyrion:

1. Making his childhood a living hell. This includes but is not limited to: encouraging Cersei to constantly bully him, never doing anything to stop him. Beating down any dreams and ambitions he might have. And probably the main one, never loving him and showing that constantly. You can imagine how nice it is to grow up being bullies by everyone, having never known your mother and having a father that doesn't love you and constantly shows that. And we still haven't gotten to the good stuff yet.

2. Tysha. Besides having the poor girl raped by his guardsmen and then making Tyrion do it (must I even say how awful this is and that Tywin would get arrested for rape, and molestation in our world). The even worse part is completely breaking Tyrion psyche by making up the story that she was a whore. 

3. Further degrading Tyrion and humiliating him. Refusing to let him go on travels, charging him with the Casterly Rock sewers, and probably hundreds more such degrading things. I'm actually surprised that by the beginning of the books Tyrion is still sane and normal.

4. The immediate aftermath of Blackwater. Yes Tyrion thanks for saving the city, now I'm going to deny you any kind of glory or recognition, make a speech that it just every single shade of awful and lash someone I believe you held dear.

5. Forcing him to marry a child, and then constantly trying to make him rape said child. Kudos on Tyrion for having balls of steel.

6. And finally the trial. Trying to have him banished to the wall despite probably being aware of his innocence, is only the first horribly shitty action. Next we have not even allowing Tyrion to cross examine, sentencing him to die when he could have opted for something like the Wall, and finally sleeping with Shae, not only proofing he's a complete fucking hypocrite, but choosing Shae just for shits and giggles and in a final thing he does to stick it to his son.

So to recap he have, a lifetime of wearing down Tyrion, trying everything he could to humiliate him, forcing him to RAPE his wife, while still a teenager, flogging someone he though Tyrion held dear, giving him a speech made of pure poison instead of even the smallest hint of glory, then constantly trying to make him rape a 12 year old, and finally trying to down right kill him, or at least banish him to the wall. Tywin had it coming, there was nothing wrong in what Tyrion did to him.

They are the same character from book to book.  Sure, he may mature a little and get wiser but he is the same man.  And the murder of Tywin was not out of self-defense.  It was cold-blooded murder of the man who had supported his habits his whole life. 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 minute ago, Son of Man said:

And the murder of Tywin was not out of self-defense.  It was cold-blooded murder of the man who had supported his habits his whole life. 

When exactly did I say it was self defense. It wasn't murder either. It was justice. Tyrion finally paying back Tywin his due diligence.

2 minutes ago, Son of Man said:

They are the same character from book to book.  Sure, he may mature a little and get wiser but he is the same man.

No they are not. Tyrion is ACOK is as different from Tyrion in ADWD as Dany from ADWD is from Dany at the beginning of ASOIAF. They're called character arks for a reason.

[Son of Man]

Just now, Alyn Oakenfist said:

When exactly did I say it was self defense. It wasn't murder either. It was justice. Tyrion finally paying back Tywin his due diligence.

No they are not. Tyrion is ACOK is as different from Tyrion in ADWD as Dany from ADWD is from Dany at the beginning of ASOIAF. They're called character arks for a reason.

Justice?  I think you are wrong on that. Remember, as far as Tywin knows, he was guilty of assassinating the king.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

Just now, Son of Man said:

Justice?  I think you are wrong on that. Remember, as far as Tywin knows, he was guilty of assassinating the king.

Nah, Tywin could have cared less if Tyrion was guilty or not. 

Also what does what Tywin think about Tyrion's guilt have to do with whether or not Tyrion killing him was justice? 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

Just now, Son of Man said:

Remember, as far as Tywin knows, he was guilty of assassinating the king

He was probably smart enough to figure it out (or at least knew Tyrion well enough) he just didn't give a rat's ass. It was his long awaited opportunity to be rid of him.

4 minutes ago, Son of Man said:

Justice?  I think you are wrong on that.

Oh it was justice alright. Remember Tysha? Remember Green Ford? Remember Alayaya? Remember his marriage to Sansa and Tywin wanting Tyrion to rape her?