VICTARION QUERY

[Macgregor of the North]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

I am convinced that Moqorro played a confidence trick with Victarion over the horn. I think Moqorro never read the real glyphs to Victarion. Moqorro gets Victarion to tell all he knows about the incident with the horn at the kingsmoot and THEN he tells Victarion what the glyphs "say".

I agree Moqorro is lulling Victarion into a sense of power and comfort with the horn, because it keeps him In Victarion’s confidence and ensures his passage closer to Dany.

He hasn’t completely lied though, as clearly the “no mortal man shall sound me and live” glyph was true. 

The TWOW chapter extension I was seeking stated that:

Spoiler

Victarion rubbed blood on the horn after being bled, while murmuring about Dragons

This may be what Moqorro wanted. Victarion to believe he is now the horn’s master, which in truth, he likely isn’t. I still believe there’s a chance that Pyat Pree is.

However, Moqorro has blessed Victarion with new powers on the brink of death. Will this allow Victarion to claim the horn, now his blood is infused with Fire bloodmagic? Will he feel invincible enough to blow it?

This is what I keep thinking on lately...

[Macgregor of the North]

@LynnS

I’m in agreement of the significance of the hand in Victarion’s story and as you mention, the transformation of Victarion May have begun with the Fire and Blood magic Moqorro performed when Victarion was at death’s door. 

He is a different man. Touched by the red priest’s god and willing to appease it too. Will he be tempted to blow the horn after feeling invincible (immortal) enough during the battle? Will he feel forced/obliged to?

On the dusky woman, being glamored by Moqorro is something I struggle with. It would explain her appearance, although no trinket or possession has been reported on that she wears that I can remember, that would indicate this.

I think the dusky woman is completely against Moqorro and her hissing reaction was such a strong break of character, that the red priest’s appearance clearly was a spanner in the works of her plans; which I think were possibly to poison Victarion and get close to Dany with Dragonbinder at hand also. 

[LynnS]

37 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I’m in agreement of the significance of the hand in Victarion’s story and as you mention, the transformation of Victarion May have begun with the Fire and Blood magic Moqorro performed when Victarion was at death’s door. 

You have given me a lot of interesting things to think about.  I hadn't considered that Pyat Pree might be Dragonbinder's current master before.  I'd say that depends on whether Pree is immortal and has fire for blood.   I don't think the Undying transform themselves in the same manner as Moqorro and Mel.  But I do think their sorcery is powered by dragons and this is what the blue heart represents.  So it makes sense to me that Pree brought the horn to Euron with the intention of enlisting him to their cause by offering this power.  I don't think Pree is the master as much as he is horn bearer.

I don't think the Dusky Woman is glamored by Moqorro but that Moqorro employs a glamor that hides his true appearance.  I think the Dusky Woman is able to see past the glamor to his true form and this is why she reacts the way she does when she sees him for the first time.   The reason she can see past it is because she herself is a god's wife or trained in sorcery, the reason why Euron collected her and removed her tongue.  She is a source of holy blood to be used by Moqorro and Victarion in claiming the horn with blood.  That's my best guess anyway.   

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

He is a different man. Touched by the red priest’s god and willing to appease it too. Will he be tempted to blow the horn after feeling invincible (immortal) enough during the battle? Will he feel forced/obliged to?

I don't know if he will sound the horn.  Something tells me he won't.  Moqorro says it doesn't matter who winds it, onlt that Victarion claims it.  I'm guessing that when Victarion next hears the horn sounded; it will trigger a transformation that Moqorro has started.

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Victarion I

That much Victarion had known. "What do they say?"

"Much and more." The black priest pointed to one golden band. "Here the horn is named. 'I am Dragonbinder,' it says. Have you ever heard it sound?"

"Once." One of his brother's mongrels had sounded the hellhorn at the kingsmoot on Old Wyk. A monster of a man he had been, huge and shaven-headed, with rings of gold and jet and jade around arms thick with muscle, and a great hawk tattooed across his chest. "The sound it made … it burned, somehow. As if my bones were on fire, searing my flesh from within. Those writings glowed red-hot, then white-hot and painful to look upon. It seemed as if the sound would never end. It was like some long scream. A thousand screams, all melted into one."

 

 

[LynnS]

14 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

This is the segment that is proving extremely elusive. 

Perhaps this is something revealed to a European audience in a language other than English.

[Macgregor of the North]

7 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I don't think the Dusky Woman is glamored by Moqorro but that Moqorro employs a glamor that hides his true appearance.  I think the Dusky Woman is able to see past the glamor to his true form and this is why she reacts the way she does when she sees him for the first time.

My bad, and my apologies. I read your post too quickly at work and misread it.

I do like the idea Moqorro employs a glamor on himself to hide a more sinister appearance. 

Here, we disagree slightly however as I do think the hiss was likely due to the dusky woman simply seeing a red priest as the text mentions specifically "red priest" and not Moqorro. That is of course not to say you are wrong. I know Moqorro was a bit ragged in appearance, but his faded red priest robes were still there along with the facial tattoos and it seems to me at least that the dusky woman knew this.

As he opened the door to the captain's cabin, the dusky woman turned toward him, silent and smiling … but when she saw the red priest at his side her lips drew back from her teeth, and she hisssssed in sudden fury, like a snake.

[Macgregor of the North]

4 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Perhaps this is something revealed to a European audience in a language other than English.

No, the fan most certainly had heard this in English it seems. There is a link to a post on the forums that explains what the fan heard in his own words.

This was posted in TWOW forum so I believe it is classed as a spoiler. 

Spoiler

George gave us quite a treat reading two chapters. I didn't have my notebook handy because I am a fool, but this is the most I can remember. Hopefully someone else there took copious notes, but to be honest there isn't a terrible amount of new information.

 

Victarion:

 

-After he shows the horn to the three deckhands, the dusky woman bleeds his wounded hand/arm into a bowl. Then Victarion takes that blood and rubs it into the horn and murmers to it softly "My horn...dragons..."

-Then he fingerbangs the dusky woman. No sex. He says he doesn't like to bust a nut before battle (my phrasing).

-The dusky woman helps him put his armor on, he gives a rousing speech to the crew and they set sail towards Meereen.

It's a little crude, yes, but GRRM has taken the Greyjoy lads' chapters down a dark road so it's nothing out of the ordinary.

If true though, this shows Victarioin is acting on Moqorro's words literally and possibly thinks he is becoming the horn's master in this way. 

[Macgregor of the North]

25 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm guessing that when Victarion next hears the horn sounded; it will trigger a transformation that Moqorro has started.

In the event of his oarsmen sounding the horn as planned, what do you think the transformation will be specifically?

[LynnS]

15 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

In the event of his oarsmen sounding the horn as planned, what do you think the transformation will be specifically?

I'm going to go with the text I quoted upthread, that he will be transformed by fire, burned from the inside out starting with his bones.

As for the quote that you provided; Victarion attempts to claim the horn with blood before it is sounded?  If true, I don't think it will work.  I'll go out on a limb and say the Dusky Woman's blood is needed after it's sounded when the runes are white hot and Victarion's transformation is complete.  As with Dany and Mirri a sacrifice of holy blood is needed to make Victarion the horn's master. 

 

[LynnS]

I should also say that I'm just guessing and I'm not stuck on anything in particular.  I'm interested to hear what others have to say.

[Tucu]

13 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm going to go with the text I quoted upthread, that he will be transformed by fire, burned from the inside out starting with his bones.

As for the quote that you provided; Victarion attempts to claim the horn with blood before it is sounded?  If true, I don't think it will work.  I'll go out on a limb and say the Dusky Woman's blood is needed after it's sounded when the runes are white hot and Victarion's transformation is complete.  As with Dany and Mirri a sacrifice of holy blood is needed to make Victarion the horn's master. 

 

I imagine that everyone within hearing distance (including Victarion, but excluding Moqorro) will burn from the inside out. Like Aerea but faster (and without the creatures)

[Macgregor of the North]

8 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm going to go with the text I quoted upthread, that he will be transformed by fire, burned from the inside out starting with his bones.

As for the quote that you provided; Victarion attempts to claim the horn with blood before it is sounded?  If true, I don't think it will work.  I'll go out on a limb and say the Dusky Woman's blood is needed after it's sounded when the runes are white hot and Victarion's transformation is complete.  As with Dany and Mirri a sacrifice of holy blood is needed to make Victarion the horn's master. 

 

In this fashion, do you view this as Victarion's glory that awaits him that Moqorro has seen? Do you view this as his death or transformation into something else?

I agree that what Victarion is attempting with blood is not going to work and will not bind the horn, or dragons, to him as the horn's master. It is a futile exercise.

So after the blood of the dusky woman comes into play, who do you then view as the horn's master? And incidentally, the master of the dragon who hears it if Moqorro is to be believed.

[LynnS]

Just now, Tucu said:

I imagine that everyone within hearing distance (including Victarion, but excluding Moqorro) will burn from the inside out. Like Aerea but faster (and without the creatures)

I don't know.  Asha and Aeron didn't have the same experience when the horn was sounded at the Kingsmoot.

[Macgregor of the North]

2 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I should also say that I'm just guessing and I'm not stuck on anything in particular.  I'm interested to hear what others have to say.

Always!  Concrete beliefs are a tricky thing to hold with these books. 

[Macgregor of the North]

2 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I imagine that everyone within hearing distance (including Victarion, but excluding Moqorro) will burn from the inside out. Like Aerea but faster (and without the creatures)

The only difference from the kingsmoot is that a Dragon will hear it too, but I'm not necessarily sure that means all mortals present will burn from inside out.

In old Valyria, if a dragonlord sounded his or her horn around a dragon, then their nearby slaves would burn too. I'm not so sure that will happen. 

[Tucu]

5 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I don't know.  Asha and Aeron didn't have the same experience when the horn was sounded at the Kingsmoot.

 

2 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

The only difference from the kingsmoot is that a Dragon will hear it too, but I'm not necessarily sure that means all mortals present will burn from inside out.

In old Valyria, if a dragonlord sounded his or her horn around a dragon, then their nearby slaves would burn too. I'm not so sure that will happen. 

This is how Victarion described the sound:

Quote

The sound it made … it burned, somehow. As if my bones were on fire, searing my flesh from within. Those writings glowed red-hot, then white-hot and painful to look upon. It seemed as if the sound would never end. It was like some long scream. A thousand screams, all melted into one

And this was cut short by the death of the hornblower. Victarion plans to have 3 hornblowers taking turns.

[Tucu]

BTW, I think this quote from Septon Barth might be relevant:

Quote

The Valyrians were more than dragonlords. They practiced blood magic and other dark arts as well, delving deep into the earth for secrets best left buried and twisting the flesh of beasts and men to fashion monstrous and unnatural chimeras. For these sins the gods in their wroth struck them down. Valyria is accursed, all men agree, and even the boldest sailor steers well clear of its smoking bones … but we would be mistaken to believe that nothing lives there now.

There are darker things than dragons in Valyrian magic

[LynnS]

7 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

The only difference from the kingsmoot is that a Dragon will hear it too, but I'm not necessarily sure that means all mortals present will burn from inside out.

In old Valyria, if a dragonlord sounded his or her horn around a dragon, then their nearby slaves would burn too. I'm not so sure that will happen. 

I think the difference is that Victarion is not yet made into something equivalent to a dragonlord.  I'm also not sure if Victarion will be master of the horn per se or whether he will be bound to the horn in some way.  It will call a dragon and the one who controls the horn controls the dragon.  Moqorro would depict Victarion's transformation by fire as something glorious but I suspect there is a catch somewhere, a price to be paid.

[Macgregor of the North]

5 minutes ago, Tucu said:

 

This is how Victarion described the sound:

And this was cut short by the death of the hornblower. Victarion plans to have 3 hornblowers taking turns.

I know how that comes across, but I always thought it was a bit more metaphorically, like a really animated way to explain how it felt in the presence of the horn being sounded. I don't personally think it was a matter of time before they all burned, as I don't recall Aeron and Asha feeling that way in their thoughts.

Also, there is evidence the mute who blew the horn died a bit later. Victarion states it was the next day. Euron himself confirms the death wasn't instant upon blowing. The below confirms that I think. 

AFFC THE REAVER

"Cragorn's died, you know."

"Who?"

"The man who blew my dragon horn. When the maester cut him open, his lungs were charred as black as soot."

[Tucu]

2 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I know how that comes across, but I always thought it was a bit more metaphorically, like a really animated way to explain how it felt in the presence of the horn being sounded. I don't personally think it was a matter of time before they all burned, as I don't recall Aeron and Asha feeling that way in their thoughts.

Also, there is evidence the mute who blew the horn died a bit later. Victarion states it was the next day. Euron himself confirms the death wasn't instant upon blowing. The below confirms that I think. 

AFFC THE REAVER

"Cragorn's died, you know."

"Who?"

"The man who blew my dragon horn. When the maester cut him open, his lungs were charred as black as soot."

For me it looked metaphorical until GRRM gave us the details of Aerea's death in F&B.