Richard L = Lem L theory and the role of Thoros of Myr

[Frey family reunion]

17 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Believe what you want, but it is disingenuous at best to suggest others don't have reason for what they believe.

I don’t believe I’ve ever argued that.  I know why people have latched onto this theory.  I just find that the theory falls apart under serious scrutiny.  

19 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

However, I think the repeated imagery, in conjunction with what practical information we have about Lem, points strongly to the conclusion that he is Richard Lonmouth. The color of his cloak matching for instance... etc.

I don’t think the practical information exists at all.   It’s fairly random that a high profile Rhaegar supporter from the Stormlands up and moves to the Riverlands.  It’s not a really great hiding place, being in the territory of one of the Lords were on the forefront of the rebellion.  He sure doesn’t act (he seems to have a great antipathy towards nobility), look (rotten brown teeth) or speak like a nobleman.  Theon puts on the pretense because he’s forced to by Ramsay.  Why does Lem put on a pretense when he’s around his allies in the Brotherhood?  Wouldn’t Beric have known him, since Beric is also a lord from the Stormlands?  As for his cloak, umm why does that make him more likely to be a Lonmouth?  Because there is some yellow in the Lonmouth sigil?

Perhaps that argument would be more convincing if GRRM had actually bothered to describe the colors in the Lonmouth sigil within the books (like he does with quite a few noble houses).  But he doesn’t.  If yellow is so important, wouldn’t you try to associate him with the many houses in the Riverlands that also have yellow within their sigil?  From what I recall one of the theories made a big deal about the yellow cloak with blood and grass stains.  Which never made much sense to me because there is no green in the Lonmouth sigil.

27 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Maybe, but maybe not. Could drive a man to drink, certainly.

Lonmouth wasn’t just friendly to Rhaegar, he was considered a close confidant to Rhaegar, one of the few.  So yes, I don’t think he would probably ever proclaim himself as one of Robert’s men, especially since one would imagine that Lonmouth would consider Robert an usurper and at least partly blame him for the death of Rhaegar children.  Yet there is no evidence of any hostility for Lem towards Robert.

29 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

I disagree. Why do you feel this way?

I think this part should be fairly obvious.  Beric’s band of not so merry men drag Sandor into their lair, and very angrily start to lay the blame of dead Rivermen and women at the feet of Clegan because of his association with the Lannisters.  Lem is one of the ones yelling and cursing at Clegan.  It’s obvious that this band has been supplemented by people from the Riverlands who lost loves ones in the current conflict.

So when Brienne tries to bargain, Lem throws his wife and daughter back in her face.  His anger towards Brienne’s associations with the Lannisters doesn’t derive from the rebellion, it derives from the more recent conflict.  Which is why he holds the Lannisters in deep disdain, but doesn’t seem to hold Robert in disdain.  Lem joins up with the Brotherhood because he lost his wife and daughter from the Lion’s rampage through the Riverlands.

35 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

I'm gonna hard disagree with you here for a few reasons.

The Saltpans had been largely plundered before Arya arrives there (having just left the Hound behind).

Rorge, wearing the helm is the one who finished the Saltpans off, not Lem

Umm, yes, but Strongboar and the Lannisters at Castle Darry don’t know this.  I mean they still think the Saltpans was the work of Clegane, not Rorge.  So the person who actually was responsible at Saltpans doesn’t really matter.   They are targeting  whoever is wearing the Hound’s helm.

 So yes, GRRM is setting up a conflict between the current House Darry, Strongboar and Lady Stoneheart’s band, especially anyone wearing the Hound’s helm.  (And remember it’s just not just Saltpans and the Hound that they’re targeting.  It’s also the outlaw band that killed Mariaya Frey’s, i.e. Darry’s, husband.  They even point out that one of his murderers wore a yellow cloak.)

That’s why I think that if Lem does have a secret identity, it’s an identity more tied into the goings on at House Darry.

[Frey family reunion]

46 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Nor did I say he was a secret Rhaegar supporter... I think he was Rhaegar's friend, and I think he might have insider info, but I'm not even sure what being a Rhaegar supporter means at this point. Unless you mean that he might know of a child between Rhaegar and Lyanna, in which case yes, I think that makes him important to the plot as well.

Sigh.  I know for many, this is the only thing that matters.  I would humbly suggest that this story is so large and complicated that it doesn’t all revolve around Jon’s parentage.

[Mourning Star]

Just now, Frey family reunion said:

Sigh.  I know for many, this is the only thing that matters.  I would humbly suggest that this story is so large and complicated that it doesn’t all revolve around Jon’s parentage.

I don't think it's just Jon's parentage... but yes it kind of literally does though...

[Mister Smikes]

Lonmouth is a member of the minor aristocracy, from an old established House.  He squired for a prince.

Lem is heavily implied to be a commoner.  He is compared to a "soldier" which generally means a commoner with military experience.  His mode of speech is coarse ("bloody" and "arse" and "bugger"), similar to Sandor's (the grandson of a commoner, who militantly rejects the pretentions of his family's new class as knights).  Lem accepts scoldings from common innkeepers with equanimity.  "We're outlaws.  Lowborn scum, most of us, excepting his Lordship."