Ashara Dayne's relation to Ned, Brandon, Jon and the Tower of Joy

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

9 minutes ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

I love the theory, I just think its too out there you know

I mean, it makes about as much sense as any other theory and some good arguments can be made in favor of it.

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

4 hours ago, EggBlue said:

I think Howland's tale and Allyria's account are acceptable enough

The wording of Howland’s story is ambiguous, and IMO in a telling way. Saying Ned was “too shy to leave his bench” is enough for many readers to infer that he had a crush but was too shy to act without actually saying that. I personally think it means he was too shy in general to dance and socialize (which makes sense with him sitting on a bench at a big party in the first place) and his more outgoing big brother tried to get his square little brother off his bench by asking a pretty girl to dance with him.

As for Allyria, she almost certainly wasn’t old enough to have any firsthand knowledge of what happened. Given how shaky Ned Dayne’s overall account is, I’d take it with a big grain of salt.
 

In general these two things sort of illustrate my issues with N + A. The evidence for it is less compelling the more you think about it. Thirdhand anonymous Winterfell gossip, a 12 year old relaying a story from a likely teenager while also stating as fact that Ned fathered Jon with another woman, and a reliable story that doesn’t actually conclusively say anything other than that Ned and Ashara shared a dance after Brandon asked.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

9 minutes ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

The wording of Howland’s story is ambiguous, and IMO in a telling way. Saying Ned was “too shy to leave his bench” is enough for many readers to infer that he had a crush but was too shy to act without actually saying that.

We know that Rickard had Southern Ambitions and wanted to marry off his children to southern nobles. Brandon was probably betrothed to Catelyn at that point, so Ashara was a great match for Ned politically. Maybe it was Rickard who advised Ned to dance with Ashara, with Brandon helping along?

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

22 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

We know that Rickard had Southern Ambitions and wanted to marry off his children to southern nobles. Brandon was probably betrothed to Catelyn at that point, so Ashara was a great match for Ned politically. Maybe it was Rickard who advised Ned to dance with Ashara, with Brandon helping along?

Seems a bit much for me, Rickard wasn’t at Harrenhal and giving instructions to Brandon ahead of time to arrange a dance between them seems unlikely. I’m not sure how great a match Ashara really was politically given how distant Dorne is and that they’re not a great house, but in any case because marriage in Westeros is political he could have simply reached out to Lord Dayne to arrange a match if that’s what he wanted. Having one son set up a dance for another one at a tourney weeks/months ahead of time just seems needlessly convoluted 

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

Just now, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

Seems a bit much for me, Rickard wasn’t at Harrenhal and giving instructions to Brandon ahead of time to arrange a dance between them seems unlikely. I’m not sure how great a match Ashara really was politically given how distant Dorne is and that they’re not a great house, but in any case because marriage in Westeros is political he could have simply reached out to Lord Dayne to arrange a match if that’s what he wanted. Having one son set up a dance for another one at a tourney weeks/months ahead of time just seems needlessly convoluted 

They are an old house with a good name. A good match with a second son of a major house. I think Ned and Benjen were there at Rickard and Jon Arryn’s behest to find fitting brides. As well as strengthening bonds with the south for the coming coup de tat. And I think Ashara was there to find a husband as well. It was well past time, especially for a woman of her beauty. I think she genuinely liked Ned as a match, and it turned into a young love from there. 

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

They are an old house with a good name. A good match with a second son of a major house. I think Ned and Benjen were there at Rickard and Jon Arryn’s behest to find fitting brides. As well as strengthening bonds with the south for the coming coup de tat. And I think Ashara was there to find a husband as well. It was well past time, especially for a woman of her beauty. I think she genuinely liked Ned as a match, and it turned into a young love from there. 

 

Quote

Littlefinger agreed. "The Stark girl brings Joffrey nothing but her body, sweet as that may be. Margaery Tyrell brings fifty thousand swords and all the strength of Highgarden."

This is what LF says about Sansa, Ashara Dayne isn't in a that much different situation. We have a very explicit example of beauty not being worth much in the case of Lynesse. She is quite the beauty but so far down the line her father marries her to some random lord who is pisspoor, is not from an important family and only has some repute as an individual lord. It isn't even an arrenged marriage either, the guy wins a tourney and asks for her hand and the father is just "sure, whatever, marry her I don't care" she is thrown away like an unwanted toy. Beauty is quite the bonus but isn't the primary requisite for a good marriage. House Dayne is an ancient name but as world book says renowned mostly for their knights, they aren't really a powerful house. Normally, there isn't much gain for the Starks by marrying to Daynes, not only they aren't a powerful house but they are also on the other side of the continent, they aren't exactly rich either, however, there are several gains for the Starks here by both a marriage by itself and a marriage not to house Dayne butspecifically to Ashara.

 

Normally, we can expect Ned's marriage to be on the level of Garlan's. Garlan is from a richer house but still a second son so gets to marry a Fossoway when there are many other more powerful houses. Ned, while not from a house as rich, is actually in a better position because he isn't just a second son, he is to be a lord in his own right, so he is in a better position.  While there's no mention of it, Ned tells Bran and Rickon are going to get titles and we can expect Rickard was planning the same for his sons as in the current situation of house Stark with no immediate extended family and plenty of land and castles lying around, establishing new cadets was not only logical but necessary as well. A marriage would, first and foremost, provide that to the Stark family. While Ned may not expect a bride on the same level as Brandon's, he could still get a bride from a better house than Garlan's bride so still the chance of a meaningful alliance. 

A marriage to a Dayne, while not having much gain for house Stark, has the gain of marrying into a famed house for Ned, likely a lesser lord. 

It is a marriage specifically to Ashara that has huge political gains for house Stark, especially if Rickard indeed had"Southron ambitions" especially if he was involved in some southron conspiracy. Ashara is a key figure in that she was a lady-in-waiting for Elia, Rhaegar's wife and future queen and also sister to Arthur who was not only a kingsguard but one of the best buddies of Rhaegar, the future king. Ashara, in essence, was a road leading to Rhaegar for house Stark.

A marriage specifically to Ashara provides Ned with some gains as well, since he is not in the top tier, a beautiful wife, therefore chance of beautiful daughters would help him in future alliances. Beauty of their daughters would again be meaningless for the  lord or heir of the most powerful families, but it can help aim for the second or third sons just as Ashara did with Ned.

 

 

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

3 hours ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

I think Ned and Benjen were there at Rickard and Jon Arryn’s behest to find fitting brides. As well as strengthening bonds with the south for the coming coup de tat.

I think people way overplay the Southron Ambitions thing. I think they were there because it was a big event that many of the prominent lords and knights of the realm attended.

 

3 hours ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

And I think Ashara was there to find a husband as well.

She seems to have been there as one of Elia’s ladies in waiting.

One thing in AGOT that doesn’t get mentioned much in these discussions but I think is revealing is that when Robert talks about how Ned was never a boy (because Ned didn’t screw around like he did), the only counterexample he can think of is Wylla, who he believes is Jon’s mother. If Ned really did have this legendary romance with one of the most beautiful maidens in the realm, with the approval of both their houses, surely his best friend would have known about it, no?

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

7 minutes ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

I think people way overplay the Southron Ambitions thing. I think they were there because it was a big event that many of the prominent lords and knights of the realm attended.

I'm not so sure about that. Keep in mind that northern houses don't tend to marry outside of the North at all. The fact that Rickard betrothed not one but two of his children to southern nobles was already almost unprecedented. Clearly, he didn't do it just for the fun of it. 

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

7 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I'm not so sure about that. Keep in mind that northern houses don't tend to marry outside of the North at all. The fact that Rickard betrothed not one but two of his children to southern nobles was already almost unprecedented. Clearly, he didn't do it just for the fun of it. 

Not just any Southern houses. Major ones. Baratheons and Tully’s

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

9 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I'm not so sure about that. Keep in mind that northern houses don't tend to marry outside of the North at all. The fact that Rickard betrothed not one but two of his children to southern nobles was already almost unprecedented. Clearly, he didn't do it just for the fun of it. 

I’m not saying the Ambitions were nonexistent, I’m saying that the “they were clearly going to do a coup to overthrow the Targaryens” theory of it is a major overextrapalation based on very flimsy evidence IMO.

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

3 minutes ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

I’m not saying the Ambitions were nonexistent, I’m saying that the “they were clearly going to do a coup to overthrow the Targaryens” theory of it is a major overextrapalation based on very flimsy evidence IMO.

If not the Targaryens, then Aerys

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

47 minutes ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

If not the Targaryens, then Aerys

I don’t think that’s clear either, though they may have been amendable to Rhaegar’s plan if that had panned out.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

7 hours ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

At least how I think it all went down is, Ned and Ashara had a bit of a fling at the tourney. Ned vowed to marry her after, and he would be a good catch for Ashara, who I think did like him, but was probably after his status first. The stuff with Lyanna went down, the war broke out, and Ned had to marry Cat for his own sake as well as to keep the promised Rickard made Hoster. But Ned did not know Ashara was pregnant at the time. Fast forward to the end, Arthur is dead, all her friends are dead, and the father of her child is married to another. Not for love, but for duty. 
 

Either she tells Ned, and begs him to take Jon and run away with her and their unborn child, and he refuses. Or, she doesn’t tell him, so hurt by his marriage and killing her brother, that she just doesn’t. Results the same, Ned rides away, she has a miscarriage, and she commits suicide. 

But again, if that's what happened, why did Ashara's brother, the lord of Starfall, call his own son Ned?

Ned Stark's visit to Starfall must have made a really good impression on the Daynes one way or another.

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

24 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

But again, if that's what happened, why did Ashara's brother, the lord of Starfall, call his own son Ned?

Ned Stark's visit to Starfall must have made a really good impression on the Daynes one way or another.

Perhaps he still respected what Ned did. Remember the situation he was put in. Nobody expected Rhaegar to do what he did. Nobody expected the Rebellion to happen the way it did. Ned married Catelyn because he had to defend himself and his family. He killed Arthur Dayne because he had to save his sister. And he didn’t disrespect Arthur at all, he honored what Arthur did, and showed respect to the Daynes with bringing Dawn back. He probably concocted the plan in Starfall. While it may have been bitter, it was truly the best of a shitty situation. I would have respect for a young man like that. Hard as it may be.

[EggBlue]

1 hour ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

Perhaps he still respected what Ned did. Remember the situation he was put in. Nobody expected Rhaegar to do what he did. Nobody expected the Rebellion to happen the way it did. Ned married Catelyn because he had to defend himself and his family. He killed Arthur Dayne because he had to save his sister. And he didn’t disrespect Arthur at all, he honored what Arthur did, and showed respect to the Daynes with bringing Dawn back. He probably concocted the plan in Starfall. While it may have been bitter, it was truly the best of a shitty situation. I would have respect for a young man like that. Hard as it may be.

still in that situation Ned would owe the Daynes more than they owe him . I mean , he is concealing a Targling's existence with their help. ... no , no , no ,... doesn't matter if you respect a young man for how honorable he is ; you just don't name your first born after him to remember that honorable man killed your brother and caused your sister's suicide because of his honor ! 

it must be that Daynes owe Ned , big time . for example , Lyanna may have been in Starfall . Or , my pet theory ,that I hardly have proof for , goes like this :

a) Ashara takes Aegon away from Kingslanding with Varys's help .  

b) the Kingsgaurd try to distract Ned and co. who are actually tracing Lyanna because she too is in Starfall .

c) Art in the last moment decides for some reason that he can trust Ned and tells him Lyanna's whereabouts .

d) poor Ned arrives in Starfall only to see his sister dies and leaves a baby .

e) Ned seeks out Ashara because he loves her and wants to say farewell . he somehow realizes what's going on with Aegon (maybe Art had told him that too) .

f) Ned convinces Ashara that the best way is for her to take Aegon to Essos instead of Sunspear where it'll ensure more war and bloodshed .

g) Ned gives some promises. to keep the bastard prince safe as his own , to keep Ashara's secret and let her and Aegon go , and to never mention the Daynes' close involvement with Lyanna situation and Aegon's escape which could end in their ruin and to keep Arthur Dayne's legacy intact as the honorable knight instead of the jailor! ....

oh , and this theory totally works without the Ashara/Aegon part , so omit it if you like . but I somehow doubt that lord Dayne would like Ned so much if he was the reason for the death of both his siblings.

[Corvo the Crow]

3 hours ago, EggBlue said:

still in that situation Ned would owe the Daynes more than they owe him . I mean , he is concealing a Targling's existence with their help. ... no , no , no ,... doesn't matter if you respect a young man for how honorable he is ; you just don't name your first born after him to remember that honorable man killed your brother and caused your sister's suicide because of his honor ! 

it must be that Daynes owe Ned , big time . for example , Lyanna may have been in Starfall . Or , my pet theory ,that I hardly have proof for , goes like this :

a) Ashara takes Aegon away from Kingslanding with Varys's help .  

b) the Kingsgaurd try to distract Ned and co. who are actually tracing Lyanna because she too is in Starfall .

c) Art in the last moment decides for some reason that he can trust Ned and tells him Lyanna's whereabouts .

d) poor Ned arrives in Starfall only to see his sister dies and leaves a baby .

e) Ned seeks out Ashara because he loves her and wants to say farewell . he somehow realizes what's going on with Aegon (maybe Art had told him that too) .

f) Ned convinces Ashara that the best way is for her to take Aegon to Essos instead of Sunspear where it'll ensure more war and bloodshed .

g) Ned gives some promises. to keep the bastard prince safe as his own , to keep Ashara's secret and let her and Aegon go , and to never mention the Daynes' close involvement with Lyanna situation and Aegon's escape which could end in their ruin and to keep Arthur Dayne's legacy intact as the honorable knight instead of the jailor! ....

oh , and this theory totally works without the Ashara/Aegon part , so omit it if you like . but I somehow doubt that lord Dayne would like Ned so much if he was the reason for the death of both his siblings.

I think since the Daynelings too think Jon is Ned’s, he may have lied to them as well. That is, if they didn’t know about Lyanna pregnancy. Why would you not let  your next generation in on this secret?  
 

Also Martin has made a poor job of portraying it but Daynes owned  Ned big time for bringing the sword back.
 

Evidence is all there but subtle. Tywin isn’t the first to steal an ancestral sword and we know that 500 year old Valyrian swords are so important to families ,even impoverished ones would not part with it but they are willing to part with daughters, family members. Daynes don’t have a 500 year old Valyrian sword, which has hundreds like it in the continent, they own a 10.000 year old one of a kind meteorite sword, there are none like it, Valyrian swords can not even hope to match it.
 

[EggBlue]

3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I think since the Daynelings too think Jon is Ned’s, he may have lied to them as well. That is, if they didn’t know about Lyanna pregnancy. Why would you not let  your next generation in on this secret?  
 

maybe , Ned extracted a promise from the Daynes too . what good does it make to tell those secrets to children ? 

3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Also Martin has made a poor job of portraying it but Daynes owned  Ned big time for bringing the sword back.
 

Evidence is all there but subtle. Tywin isn’t the first to steal an ancestral sword and we know that 500 year old Valyrian swords are so important to families ,even impoverished ones would not part with it but they are willing to part with daughters, family members. Daynes don’t have a 500 year old Valyrian sword, which has hundreds like it in the continent, they own a 10.000 year old one of a kind meteorite sword, there are none like it, Valyrian swords can not even hope to match it.
 

yes Dawn is very important . but think about it this way : if Tyrion had sent out Ice back to Starks as well as Ned's body , Starks would still not name the next lord Stark Tyrion . doesn't matter that Tyrion has sent them back their sword quite honorably . these kinds of families see the honorable thing as the right thing to do . something that does make them respect the person but not so much that they feel they owe them . because after all doing the right thing is simply a duty . 

[Corvo the Crow]

22 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

maybe , Ned extracted a promise from the Daynes too . what good does it make to tell those secrets to children ? 

For Arthur’s death to mean something, for them to aid Jon when the time comes(after all, he was the kwisatz haderach) and in worst case scenario reveal to him his identity if something happens to Ned and Howland or if they decide not to tell him and prevent him from becoming who he was born to be.

Otherwise it’s really meaningless and whole thing just becomes Rhaegar abducted Lyanna out of lust and raped her over and over again and Arthur the supposed pinnacle of knighthood(being sword of the dawn) aided in her abduction and stood as guard.

22 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

yes Dawn is very important . but think about it this way : if Tyrion had sent out Ice back to Starks as well as Ned's body , Starks would still not name the next lord Stark Tyrion . doesn't matter that Tyrion has sent them back their sword quite honorably . these kinds of families see the honorable thing as the right thing to do . something that does make them respect the person but not so much that they feel they owe them . because after all doing the right thing is simply a duty . 

Yes obviously there’s more to the whole thing, there was affection to begin with, the sword just added on top of that but it is by no means trivial. As for Tyrion, I’m not so sure. He had the beginnings of a good relationship with befriending Jon and aiding Bran. If he kept on doing good, we could see one  named after him

[EggBlue]

39 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

For Arthur’s death to mean something, for them to aid Jon when the time comes(after all, he was the kwisatz haderach) and in worst case scenario reveal to him his identity if something happens to Ned and Howland or if they decide not to tell him and prevent him from becoming who he was born to be.

obviously that's not the case . Ned Dayne is completely clueless about who Jon is . his story about Wylla , Jon and Ned sounds like something they have told him when he was 7 in a way to stop his questions . but , apparently they have wanted him to know Jon and Ned as friends of house Dayne ... so , maybe they were planning on explaining the thing later . only , lord Dayne had died . 

39 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Yes obviously there’s more to the whole thing, there was affection to begin with, the sword just added on top of that but it is by no means trivial. As for Tyrion, I’m not so sure. He had the beginnings of a good relationship with befriending Jon and aiding Bran. If he kept on doing good, we could see one  named after him

I somehow doubt that . besides , like you say Tyrion would have had to keep going like that so maybe the Starks name the next heir after him . Ned had done nothing for the Daynes before the sword thing . unless , they see impregnating their sister and leaving her behind is a blessing ... or maybe they were thrilled to see Sword of the Morning dead! you see what I mean ? turning back Dawn on its own is not enough for such regard . 

[Corvo the Crow]

5 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

obviously that's not the case . Ned Dayne is completely clueless about who Jon is . his story about Wylla , Jon and Ned sounds like something they have told him when he was 7 in a way to stop his questions . but , apparently they have wanted him to know Jon and Ned as friends of house Dayne ... so , maybe they were planning on explaining the thing later . only , lord Dayne had died . 

52 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Allyria may know. 
 

 

7 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

Ned had done nothing for the Daynes before the sword thing

No we don’t know how things were before or even after. He may have done many things before, during or after the war. Things being good between them doesn’t necessarily involve things related to Jon. From what Cersei tells there was fighting in the Dorne as well which makes sense. Perhaps Ned prevented the ruin and destruction of Dayne lands.