Brienne of Tarth's Endgame

[csuszka1948]

On 6/3/2023 at 7:15 AM, chrisdaw said:

I think Jaime is going to end up saving the world, few will know it but Brienne will. I don't dislike the idea of the White Book recording Jaime's truth, but even if it happens I don't believe it'll cut through to the masses, he'll be reviled as a villain despite having given everything in service for the realm.

I believe Tyland Lannister is a parallel for Jaime along the lines of these themes, in the aftermath of the Dance Tyland took no revenge for himself or his team, he forgot all and governed in the interest of the realm and its future.

 

LOL.

Jaime will end up choking her sister to death. Not killing her with a sword, ensuring a quick death, but choking her to death with her left hand and the golden chain hand. This is not an act of mercy or duty, but an act committed out of anger or jealousy.

His story will end with tragedy and failed redemption.

[Gilbert Green]

6 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Maybe!

Brienne is the most likely, but there is room to also entertain your theory that Ser Hasty is. If using that rozor, Hasty is the one to get cut though, sorry.

The Razor applies when you present no evidence.  If you had presented any evidence, the Razor would not apply.

There is no logical connection between Brienne being a descendant of Dunk, and Dunk's shield in the Evenstar's armory.  At least, I missed the part where you explained that connection.

Yes, if you bend over backwards, you can invent a scenario where both facts happen to be true.  Maybe Dunk was busy cuckolding the Lord of Tarth, who came home early and Dunk ran away and left his shield behind.  Or maybe the Evenstar adopted a child he found floating in the river on a shield that happened, by some strange coincidence, to belong to her grandfather.  But that only means you can force these two elements together, not that one implies the other.

Brienne uses Dunk's shield, yes.  But she knows of no reason to believe that Dunk's shield is the shield of an ancestor.  And neither do we.

Edited June 13, 2023 by Gilbert Green

[Hippocras]

Not biting. Some people just wanna fight

[Gilbert Green]

3 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Not biting. Some people just wanna fight

Fight?  I thought we were having a conversation.  But of course you don't have to do that either.  Cheers.

[Gilbert Green]

13 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I thought Dunk was in the Kingsguard though, so he'd be sworn to celibacy, and he doesn't seem like the type of man to break his vows. That doesn't exclude him having a child before that, but given that Dunk is a peasant and nobles look down on peasants how would any noble house be related to him unless a member married a peasant at some point?

There are of course ways that common blood can get injected into noble houses.  But these scenarios are castles in the air if GRRM does not give us any dots to connect.  And with Duncan and the Evenstar, I don't think he has given us any such dots.

Drama surrounding noble and common blood was a theme during Egg's reign.  Egg was opposed by the nobles for having too much commoner sympathy.  His son Duncan the Small married a common woman, and then had to give up his crown.  Otherwise his father would have lost too much noble support.

And then Egg's granddaughter Rhaella falls in love with a landed knight.  A landed knight might be little more than an upjumped commoner.

But these little dramas concern the Targaryens.  For the Lords of Tarth he has planted no seeds to use in theories. 

 

[Nevets]

8 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

The Razor applies when you present no evidence.  If you had presented any evidence, the Razor would not apply.

There is no logical connection between Brienne being a descendant of Dunk, and Dunk's shield in the Evenstar's armory.  At least, I missed the part where you explained that connection.

Yes, if you bend over backwards, you can invent a scenario where both facts happen to be true.  Maybe Dunk was busy cuckolding the Lord of Tarth, who came home early and Dunk ran away and left his shield behind.  Or maybe the Evenstar adopted a child he found floating in the river on a shield that happened, by some strange coincidence, to belong to her grandfather.  But that only means you can force these two elements together, not that one implies the other.

Brienne uses Dunk's shield, yes.  But she knows of no reason to believe that Dunk's shield is the shield of an ancestor.  And neither do we.

Martin put Dunk's shield in Tarth for a reason.  The logical conclusion is that he is establishing a connection between Dunk and Tarth.  It doesn't have to be Dunk himself; it could be a descendant who inherited it.  Given Brienne's size and the Dunk/Tarth connection, concluding that she's a descendant of his is hardly unreasonable.

[Gilbert Green]

3 hours ago, Nevets said:

Martin put Dunk's shield in Tarth for a reason.  The logical conclusion is that he is establishing a connection between Dunk and Tarth.  It doesn't have to be Dunk himself; it could be a descendant who inherited it.  Given Brienne's size and the Dunk/Tarth connection, concluding that she's a descendant of his is hardly unreasonable.

Just because George does things for a reason does not mean you can guess his reasons.  Your chances of being right are greater if you make rational connections, rather than irrational ones.  No guarantees, of course.  But I think the odds are better.

Shields end up in armories because they are valuable military equipment.  What Dunk's shield in Tarth points to is Dunk or a descendant of Dunk losing his shield somehow.  If it is a clue pointing to anyone, it may point to the Elder Brother.   The Elder Brother is the mystery man, from a family that had historically been Targ loyalists, who lost his shield while fighting loyalists of King Robert.

Alternately, if could point to Dunk, or a descendant, serving under the Evenstar at some point.  Note that Tarth is part of the Stormlands, and Bonifer is from the Stormlands.

As for GRRM's other motives, they could include identity games.  They could foreshadow a mystery knight appearing at the Vale tournament and carrying a shield similar to what Brienne was last carrying (which was explicitly not her own).  And this person could turn out to be Brienne, or Lem, or the Elder Brother, or Sandor, or someone else.  Someone could end up being a descendant of Dunk, but it does not have to be Brienne, or anyone else who bears the shield.  Of all of them Brienne is least likely to be a descendant of Dunk, because she is a descendant of the Evenstar.  Nobility don't marry commoners.  And when their lines mix on the wrong side of the sheets, shields are not generally left behind as evidence.

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by Gilbert Green