The Ned, Brandon, and Ashara timeline doesn't make sense.

[SaffronLady]

16 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Some people believe, erroneously, that they have always had purple eyes.

If you want to point at Dyanna Dayne possibly being a descendant of Rhaena Hightower nee Targaryen, I wish to point to something that does suggest the Daynes HAVE ALWAYS HAD purple eyes - Dawn. If the first Daynes "cut out the heart of a fallen star" to make their family sword, it suggest they were on the Amethyst Empress' children's side in the war to bring down the Bloodstone Emperor. They may even be one of these children themselves.

[Hippocras]

13 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

If you want to point at Dyanna Dayne possibly being a descendant of Rhaena Hightower nee Targaryen, I wish to point to something that does suggest the Daynes HAVE ALWAYS HAD purple eyes - Dawn. If the first Daynes "cut out the heart of a fallen star" to make their family sword, it suggest they were on the Amethyst Empress' children's side in the war to bring down the Bloodstone Emperor. They may even be one of these children themselves.

I am not convinced actually that Dyanna had any Targ ancestry although she might have. But I actually suspect it might have come a bit later. Daenora Twrgaryen was very young and had a newborn child who theoretically should have been named King but was not. That was a serious threat to Aegon. So one possibility I consider very interesting is that Daenora remarried into Aegon V’s mother’s family to secure her allegiance as well as her silence about who the infant formerly known as Maegor (briefly) really was. After all, when Aerion died, there was no reason for anyone else to respect his wish to insult the world by naming the baby Maegor. So Daenora became lady Dayne, and Maegor became eventually head of the High Hermitage branch.

 

None of this of course excludes your theory. Which is interesting, but so far back it is hard to consider it relevant without later points of connect with things that matter. Daynes would not have kept their purple eyes over 5000 or more years while intermarrying with darker skinned, brown and black eyed Dornish if not for new insertions of genes carrying the purple eyed trait.

Edited December 23, 2023 by Hippocras

[SaffronLady]

1 hour ago, Hippocras said:

Daynes would not have kept their purple eyes over 5000 or more years while intermarrying with darker skinned, brown and black eyed Dornish

Well, 'stoney Dornish' do produce people with lighter skin and blue eyes. Of course, purple specifically would require creative and recursive inbreeding to ensure even some pop up from time to time.

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

12 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Daynes would not have kept their purple eyes over 5000 or more years while intermarrying with darker skinned, brown and black eyed Dornish if not for new insertions of genes carrying the purple eyed trait.

ASOIAF genetics do not follow real world logic and houses having distinct looks across centuries is common. The Rhoynish have also only been in Dorne for about 1,000 years and many of the Stony Dornish (like the Daynes) still have fair features.

[SocratesSnow]

On 6/8/2023 at 4:24 PM, maesternewton said:

Whether or not it's Ned or Brandon, the problem with theories that state the father of Ashara's baby was a Stark is that the timelines don't make sense.

Most of the theories state that Ashara's babe was conceived during the Tourney of Harrenhal, which happens in 281 AC. Since this is where Barristan states she was dishonored by a Stark.

But part of the reason why Ashara dies by suicide is because she has a stillborn daughter. If her daughter was conceived during the Tourney, then it does not make sense for that to be the cause that makes her jump off a tower since by 283 AC, the year Ashara dies, the baby would have been already dead.

If then the baby was not conceived during the tourney in Harrenhal, then it could not be Brandon since after the Tourney he dies and could not be Ned, since he spends most of his time fighting a war.

Looking at the wiki, it seems like the Tourney of Harrenhal occured close to the end of the year, since it happens in 281 AC but it is stated Brandon dies in 282 AC. And after leaving the Tourney Brandon goes to Riverrun.

She wasn't dishonored by a Stark. She turned to Stark after she was dishonored. There was only one person at the Tourney that could ha e gotten away with dishonoring her and that is Aerys II

[SaffronLady]

1 hour ago, SocratesSnow said:

She wasn't dishonored by a Stark. She turned to Stark after she was dishonored. There was only one person at the Tourney that could ha e gotten away with dishonoring her and that is Aerys II

How is Stark supposed to help Ashara though? Aerys assaulting her/denouncing her parentage don't seem like things the Starks could deal with. Unless 'dishonor' meant 'threaten to marry her off to an insignificant minor lord beneath the dignity of a Dayne lady'?

[Hippocras]

2 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

How is Stark supposed to help Ashara though? Aerys assaulting her/denouncing her parentage don't seem like things the Starks could deal with. Unless 'dishonor' meant 'threaten to marry her off to an insignificant minor lord beneath the dignity of a Dayne lady'?

Noone can answer that because we don't kbow how she was dishonoured. The details of what happened are needed before knowing how anyone could help.

[Alester Florent]

2 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

How is Stark supposed to help Ashara though? Aerys assaulting her/denouncing her parentage don't seem like things the Starks could deal with. Unless 'dishonor' meant 'threaten to marry her off to an insignificant minor lord beneath the dignity of a Dayne lady'?

What I would - hesitantly and with caveats - assume is that the intention was for Ned to marry Ashara, thereby helping to redeem her honour, whether that be by simple association with a house of unimpeachable status who nobody is going to mess with, or to cover for a (potential) unwanted pregnancy. In this scenario, it doesn't matter whether the Stark who Ashara "turned to" was Brandon or Ned, since Brandon's role would be as matchmaker.

Remember of course that Ned was unattached at this point and Harrenhal was clearly a target-rich environment for singles, so if Ned had already shown an interest in Ashara (something Brandon seems to have encouraged) that was an ideal time to start arranging things. The idea of Ned's effectively adopting Ashara's child as his own if necessary is of course also wholly in character for him, given what we suspect of Jon... now, of course, there's a difference between passing your nephew off as your own bastard and passing off someone else's get on your wife as a legitimate son, but perhaps those are details to be worked out later, the important thing being to give Ashara "cover" for any unwed pregnancy (after all, even if the baby is born suspiciously soon after the marriage, a child purportedly conceived by parties unmarried-but-already-betrothed is much less problematic than one fathered by an unknown rando on an unwed mother).

Even with Brandon's approval/encouragement, though, any such betrothal would have to be approved by Rickard and Lord Dayne, though (one imagines that Ashara's "dishonour" would not be dislosed to Lord Rickard by Brandon/Ned) and before this can be done, the Lyanna business happens, and Ned finds himself largely unavoidably both Lord Stark and married to Cat, with poor Ashara becoming collateral damage.

[Hippocras]

6 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

What I would - hesitantly and with caveats - assume is that the intention was for Ned to marry Ashara, thereby helping to redeem her honour, whether that be by simple association with a house of unimpeachable status who nobody is going to mess with, or to cover for a (potential) unwanted pregnancy. In this scenario, it doesn't matter whether the Stark who Ashara "turned to" was Brandon or Ned, since Brandon's role would be as matchmaker.

It would also explain BS’s ambiguity on the matter, as he would be talking about House Stark effectively.

6 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Remember of course that Ned was unattached at this point and Harrenhal was clearly a target-rich environment for singles, so if Ned had already shown an interest in Ashara (something Brandon seems to have encouraged) that was an ideal time to start arranging things. The idea of Ned's effectively adopting Ashara's child as his own if necessary is of course also wholly in character for him, given what we suspect of Jon... now, of course, there's a difference between passing your nephew off as your own bastard and passing off someone else's get on your wife as a legitimate son, but perhaps those are details to be worked out later, the important thing being to give Ashara "cover" for any unwed pregnancy (after all, even if the baby is born suspiciously soon after the marriage, a child purportedly conceived by parties unmarried-but-already-betrothed is much less problematic than one fathered by an unknown rando on an unwed mother).

I am not sure he would have raised the child as his. It might have been just a matter of letting Ashara raise the child as her own in a loving home, not sent away and scorned. After all, it is very possible people knew already who the father was.

 

6 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

…before this can be done, the Lyanna business happens, and Ned finds himself largely unavoidably both Lord Stark and married to Cat

I am actually not sure the “Lyanna business” is disconnected.

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

16 hours ago, SocratesSnow said:

She wasn't dishonored by a Stark. She turned to Stark after she was dishonored. There was only one person at the Tourney that could ha e gotten away with dishonoring her and that is Aerys II

I ask again, if Aerys is the man who dishonored her, why would Barristan think she may have committed suicide out of grief for him? It doesn’t make sense.

Given that the buildup to the “looked to” line is all about how Barristan never told her he loved her because he was sworn to celibacy and nothing good could come of it, I think the most natural reading of the line is him wondering if he would have been her romantic partner at Harrenhal instead of “Stark” if he had said something.

Edited December 24, 2023 by ATaleofSalt&Onions

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

12 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

What I would - hesitantly and with caveats - assume is that the intention was for Ned to marry Ashara, thereby helping to redeem her honour

If that’s the case then what exactly is Barristan thinking of when he wonders what would have happened if she had “looked to” him instead of Stark had he told her his feelings? As a Kingsguard he couldn’t have married her nor would claiming the child as his own avoid scandal or dishonor.

Edited December 24, 2023 by ATaleofSalt&Onions

[Hippocras]

2 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

If that’s the case then what exactly is Barristan thinking of when he wonders what would have happened if she had “looked to” him instead of Stark had he told her his feelings? As a Kingsguard he couldn’t have married her nor would claiming the child as his own avoid scandal or dishonor.

BS could not offer the help she needed because he was a Kingsguard. But if he had been free to help/marry then some of tge underlying politics of the tourney would have been mitigated or absent, and maybe no war.

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

43 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

BS could not offer the help she needed because he was a Kingsguard. But if he had been free to help/marry then some of tge underlying politics of the tourney would have been mitigated or absent, and maybe no war.

But the “what if?” he asks himself is not “what if I never joined the Kingsguard?” it’s “what if I unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned her and she learned how I felt?” 
 

All of the alternatives proposed in this thread feel like working backwards from the assumption that the passage is not referring to Ashara having a child with a Stark and throwing out any other hypotheticals that come to mind. But the reason I’m pretty confident in my position is that I haven’t heard any other theories that 1) propose a “dishonor” that is supported by any solid textual evidence elsewhere and 2) satisfy not just the question of “what was the dishonor?” but provide a reasonable explanation as to a) why Barristan would think Ashara may have committed suicide out of grief for the man who did it and b) why, after citing his vow of celibacy as the reason he held back, he would feel like telling Ashara how he felt would cause her to “look to” him instead of Stark and produce a better outcome than what ultimately happened to her?

[maesternewton]

On 12/18/2023 at 10:09 AM, Mordred said:

George is not going to give firm time lines.  He wants to keep his secrets.  Brandon was a hostage in King's Landing for some time.  Ashara had time for an intimate visit. Jon was conceived in the dungeons.  Second, Jon could also have been conceived at the tournament and Ashara had a second child later with another man.  The second dad was Rhaegar.  This serves the purpose of building that connection between Ice and Fire through a Dayne mother.  But the best explanation was given by Winterfell's maester.  He lied about bastards growing up faster.  Jon is considerably older than the readers believe.  He was born at the appropriate time after Brandon and Ashara got it on at the tournament.  Ned brought him back to Winterfell after switching babies with Ashara.  Ashara took Rhaegar's bastard out of the kingdom and went into hiding.  Aegon is Rhaegar's bastard. 

Not going to lie, I can't believe people still believe that R+L=J is not canon at this point. 

[Hippocras]

4 hours ago, maesternewton said:

Not going to lie, I can't believe people still believe that R+L=J is not canon at this point. 

I think some people are contorting themselves with theories because they want to believe that Dawn is THE sword and that Jon is soon to be "the Sword of the Morning". That idea would of course not be compatible with R+L=J

 

[Hippocras]

@ATaleofSalt&Onions

That is fine. You can be confident all you want, just as I am confident in my assessment that A+B = stillborn baby is insufficient to explain the complicated layers of politics at Harrenhal and the centrality of whatever happened to Ashara (from multiple perspectives) in the fact that everything went downhill from there.

One version of how she might have been dishonoured that I have seen but I don't think has come up yet on this thread, is that she had a betrothal and it was broken off there. It is difficult to determine who she might have been betrothed to or why the betrothal ended, but a broken betrothal is certainly a better fit for a souring of relationships spiraling from there into civil war than a simple fling is.

Edited December 25, 2023 by Hippocras

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

3 hours ago, Hippocras said:

is insufficient to explain the complicated layers of politics at Harrenhal and the centrality of whatever happened to Ashara (from multiple perspectives) in the fact that everything went downhill from there.

Ok, I think this is the crux of our disagreement because I see nothing in the books to suggest that whatever “dishonor” happened to Ashara was central to the politics at Harrenhal and the realm spiraling into war. You seem to be extrapolating that entirely from her dancing with a few guys in a story two books prior and I think that’s a stretch to say the least.

3 hours ago, Hippocras said:

One version of how she might have been dishonoured that I have seen but I don't think has come up yet on this thread, is that she had a betrothal and it was broken off there.

This theory at least provides a valid reason to think Barristan might believe she’d grieve the guy. But, as you concede, it suffers from the same issue as the others in that we’ve been given absolutely no information to suggest she was betrothed or that a betrothal was broken at Harrenhal. Other than the Starks the dances at Harrenhal with a KG, Oberyn, and JonCon are the full extent of her interactions (even in rumor) with any other guys in the books. Nor are there any stories I can think of from that time involving an unnamed woman where Ashara seems like a clear candidate.

The other issue is it still leaves the matters of who the father of the child is and what Ashara “looked to” Stark for and why Barristan thinks confessing his love to Ashara might have caused her to “look to” him for that instead and potentially cause things to turn out for the better?

 

 

Edited December 25, 2023 by ATaleofSalt&Onions

[Hippocras]

19 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

Ok, I think this is the crux of our disagreement because I see nothing in the books to suggest that whatever “dishonor” happened to Ashara was central to the politics at Harrenhal and the realm spiraling into war. You seem to be extrapolating that entirely from her dancing with a few guys in a story two books prior and I think that’s a stretch to say the least.

No, that is only part of it. This is the full list of reasons why there is more to the Ashara story than a simple fling between a guy who is dead and a random woman.

1. We know that Aerys showing up unexpectedly at the tournament was a big part of why it turned out to be such a pivot point that lead to war. But Rhaegar choosing Lyanna as QoLaB would have pissed some people off regardless of whether Aerys was there or not. It remains very unclear why it mattered that Aerys was there. Something else happened that in some way involved Aerys.

2. Furthermore, we know that Aerys came BECAUSE he though that Rhaegar was plotting against him.  So was Rhaegar plotting? If so, how and with whom? Aerys being there would have complicated the plotting, so what did those involved do to work around his presence? 

3. We know that Brandon was angry about Rhaegar choosing Lyanna because of her previous betrothal. He felt that her honour had been insulted. However it is actually a very strange reaction that feels like it was based on more than that single moment. Something happened before that (ie. maybe Ashara’s “dishonouring”) which influenced how the moment, and what occurred later, was interpreted. Some information is missing. Aerys’s multiple mistresses and indiscretions from 257ish to 274 were likely a factor as well.

4. Ashara was not just some random woman from a minor House. Her brother was the Sword of the Morning, a member of the Kingsguard, the man who raised Jamie Lannister to knighthood creating the conditions for Aerys naming him at Harrenhal to the KG, and close confidante of Prince Rhaegar, who we already know Aerys suspected of plotting something. She was also quite likely to be a descendant of any (or all) of Rhaena (Targaryen) Hightower, Daenerys (Targaryen) Martell or Daenora Targaryen. Loose end Targaryens by the female line are certain to exist and GRRM has yet to reveal them, nevertheless, for reasons of both appearance, and geography, Daynes are prime candidates. Ashara was very likely important in the undercurrents of lineage and right to the throne at that tournament. 

Edited December 26, 2023 by Hippocras

[Willam Stark]

On 12/25/2023 at 2:26 PM, Hippocras said:

I think some people are contorting themselves with theories because they want to believe that Dawn is THE sword and that Jon is soon to be "the Sword of the Morning". That idea would of course not be compatible with R+L=J

Well in this scenario, he has Dayne blood through his paternal great-great-grandmother, Dyanna Dayne.

If it's just a matter of blood, it should work.

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

5 hours ago, Hippocras said:

No, that is only part of it. This is the full list of reasons why there is more to the Ashara story than a simple fling between a guy who is dead and a random woman.

You provided a list of reasons that either have nothing to do with Ashara or where her involvement is based almost purely on speculation. I don’t find any reason for any of this to negate the implications of the actual text we’ve been given as erroneous or less important than these highly speculative theories. I think Ashara’s role in the story will have some relation to what the text we’ve been given about her is largely about (love or tryst with a Stark) and not purely based on who she’s related to. That doesn’t preclude her having a role on top of that, but I do not buy the idea that her relation to Arthur or the theoretical descent from Targaryens (which I think is wrong for reasons previously stated) or being a companion to Elia somehow implies that she had nothing going on with Brandon or Ned.