Tracing Bloodlines - Speculations on House Dondarrion

[Green Stag]

4 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Interesting about Dragonstone, yes.

As for Daena, it is certainly possible she married a Dondarrion and I don't discount it. It is just that the context makes it the less likely option. The context is that Daena was considered willful and defiant, and as Aegon III's daughter she was a direct threat to Viserys II's reign if she could not be kept in line. If she remained in the Seven Kingdoms, she could have inspired a rebellion. Basically the Dance all over again. She had also just given birth to a bastard, making her a far from desirable match for the most prominent Houses of Westeros. We also know that Viserys II (who would have been the one to arrange the marriages of his nieces in 171) was very much preoccupied with trade across the Narrow sea. This is why I think that Daena being exhile to Tyrosh is the more likely way to interpret the family tree. Kiera of Tyrosh was married not once, but TWICE to princes who were directly in line for the throne. First Valarr, heir of Baelor who was originally heir of Daeron II, then Daeron who was the eldest son of Maekar. That only makes sense if Kiera descended from Daena. So I tend to think that it was more likely Daena's sister Rhaena, or a descendant of Baela or her sister (also Rhaena) who was the mother of Jena.

Maybe.  I always felt that the marriage to Kiera of Tyrosh was a move to in part block Blackfyre alliances in Essos.  Daemon Blackfyre had been married to Rohanne of Tyrosh, so a new marriage with Tyrosh might keep them from making a new alliance and supporting Daemon's heirs.  

Daena wouldn't be as good a match for a powerful house due to giving birth to a bastard, however as I mentioned before we know her sister Elaena had some similar matches after giving birth to a couple of bastards.  The Dondarrions are prominent enough to not be seen as an insult, but not so much as to be a significant threat should they or someone else try to make any son she may have from a Dondarrion match king - House Swann and Baratheon might try to block it as it would likely put their position doubly at risk - if a rebellion failed they would be punished for supporting it, if it succeeds, then they are in the awkward position of their bannermen now being their King, upsetting the balance in the Stormlands and possibly promoting / favoring their kinsman over the Lord Paramount.  

Additionally, Daena can be watched in the Stormlands, recalled to Kingslanding if necessary; much harder to do or enforce if she is across the narrow sea.  

[Hippocras]

@Green Stag

Elaena is a bit of a different situation though. Her first bastards (twins I think) were with Alyn Velaryon, who she had actually hoped to marry. I am not sure if it was at the point of an official betrothal but still, the intention for the two of them to marry was clearly there and she did not get pregnant while in the Maidenvault as Daena did. we of course don't know exactly when Baela died, but entirely possible that it was before 171 when Elaena became "available" which would mean that Alyn was also "available". 

The only reason Elaena did not marry Alyn was because he was lost on his last voyage, and by the time that was discovered, Viserys II was dead and Aegon had become King which changed the situation. Daena's marriage was certainly arranged by Viserys II, but Elaena's was arranged by Aegon IV. The motive of THAT marriage was a land grab for another one of Aegon IV's bastards, and it was to someone so old that the fact the bride had bastards didn't matter.

When Elaena married again to Ronnel Penrose a great deal of time had passed, she had proved herself extremely intelligent and loyal to the crown, and there was a new King yet again. Daeron II had a very pressing need to try to undo Aegon IV's damage, which included securing the allegiance of dangerous offshoots of House Targaryen. That included Daena's children (other than Daemon) and it also included Baela, Rhaena (maybe both Rhaenas) and Elaena's lines. So while we do not know exactly what relationship House Penrose had to House Targaryen that needed containing, we can be reasonably certain there IS a relationship there, and that Elaena and Ronnel's marriage was meant to resolve it.

 

Edited July 18, 2023 by Hippocras

[Frey family reunion]

On 6/29/2023 at 2:49 AM, Hippocras said:

First there is Beric. Why was he the one to come back to life that way?

As an aside, GRRM seemed to have looked at Achilles as one of his inspirations for Beric Dondarrion.  Achilles was said to have had red-gold hair like Beric.  And like Beric, Achilles became immune to danger (save his heel) after being dipped in a body of water.  Beric after he was wounded and then submerged was brought back to life, and thereafter no injury was able to permanently kill him.

So if we look to Achilles’ story for a possible inspiration for Beric’s bloodlines, Achilles was the son of King Peleus and the Sea Nymph Thetis.  And it was through his mother’s actions that Achilles obtained his invulnerability.

So maybe that’s a hint that Beric’s ability to be resurrected comes from his mother’s line.

 

[Hippocras]

@Frey family reunion interesting, thanks. It doesn't explain Jena probably, but good enough for me when it comes to Beric.

[Lord of Oldstones]

9 hours ago, Hippocras said:

I gave reasons why it makes perfect sense above, but to clarify:

1. Alyn Velaryon and Benjicot Blackwood fought together during the Dance of the Dragons.

2. Both were sidelined somewhat early in Aegon III's regency in spite of (or rather because of) their outsized contributions to the war, as well as their young age.

3. They then became good friends fighting together again in the Vale succession conflict of 134.

4. In 138, the Blackwoods were responsible for getting Addam Velaryon's bones returned to Driftmark. There is no reason given for why the Blackwoods would be the ones to return the bones and it is an odd detail since Alyn's brother died at Tumbleton, which is nowhere near Raventree Hall. So GRRM clearly had some other reason to drive home the deepening relationship between Alyn Velaryon and the Blackwoods.

Alyn and Baela's daughter Laena was born in 134. She then had a second child, probably a son born in 136 or 137. It is entirely reasonable to suspect that a betrothal of their third child was arranged as a result of Alyn's gratitude over the return of Addam's remains.

 

We are discussing the Blackwoods a lot here which was not really my intent. On the other hand I feel that I will be called nasty names and trashed again (as I was on the Four Storms bloodlines thread) if I start a thread on the Blackwoods, because we actually know absolutely nothing for certain. We don't have a family tree at all for House Blackwood (or Dondarrion). What we do have is information about relationships between characters, and those relationships are the basis for friendships, alliances, and so marriages.

One thing we do know is that there is a historic connection between the Blackwoods and the Stormlands. They inter-married with the Storm Kings before the Conquest, and continued to have ties with First Men rooted Houses in the Stormlands after the conquest. So when it comes to House Dondarrion, the combination of Blackwood connections to the Stormlands and regional connections within the Stormlands does give a vague fuzzy picture of general affinities and connections even without specific or recent familial ties.

 

Blackwoods seem to have far and wide marriage network  as Eustage Osgrey's quote on past Osgrey glory points, with House Blackwood mentioned as one of the brilliant houses they married in past. So, ancient ties to Stormlands isn't special. House Durrandon likely married them to get a firm hold to invade Trident.

As for 4  storms, one of the storm has married old man far beneath her station and has ill repute, other dies in child birth, one is silent sister and only one that could have any children marrying high nobility or having any children is Ellyn. But I also think its not out of question that she will be married to Benjicot Blackwood to promote peace. 

[Hippocras]

1 hour ago, Lord of Oldstones said:

As for 4  storms, one of the storm has married old man far beneath her station and has ill repute, other dies in child birth, one is silent sister and only one that could have any children marrying high nobility or having any children is Ellyn. But I also think its not out of question that she will be married to Benjicot Blackwood to promote peace. 

Yes, I know. But I tried to discuss where descendants might have gone beyond the first generation and as there are no family trees, I was simply accused of fan fiction. Anyway, this thread isn't about the 4 Storms. Unless somehow House Dondarrion descends from one of them of course.

Edited July 18, 2023 by Hippocras

[Green Stag]

Valarr Targaryen had a silver-gold streak running through his brown hair.  Elaena also had a streak running through her hair.  

Obviously Elaena isn't Valarr's mother (or other direct ancestor), but could the streak be some clue has to his ancestry?  Just a thought.

[Green Stag]

11 hours ago, Hippocras said:

@Green Stag

Elaena is a bit of a different situation though. Her first bastards (twins I think) were with Alyn Velaryon, who she had actually hoped to marry. I am not sure if it was at the point of an official betrothal but still, the intention for the two of them to marry was clearly there and she did not get pregnant while in the Maidenvault as Daena did. we of course don't know exactly when Baela died, but entirely possible that it was before 171 when Elaena became "available" which would mean that Alyn was also "available". 

The only reason Elaena did not marry Alyn was because he was lost on his last voyage, and by the time that was discovered, Viserys II was dead and Aegon had become King which changed the situation. Daena's marriage was certainly arranged by Viserys II, but Elaena's was arranged by Aegon IV. The motive of THAT marriage was a land grab for another one of Aegon IV's bastards, and it was to someone so old that the fact the bride had bastards didn't matter.

When Elaena married again to Ronnel Penrose a great deal of time had passed, she had proved herself extremely intelligent and loyal to the crown, and there was a new King yet again. Daeron II had a very pressing need to try to undo Aegon IV's damage, which included securing the allegiance of dangerous offshoots of House Targaryen. That included Daena's children (other than Daemon) and it also included Baela, Rhaena (maybe both Rhaenas) and Elaena's lines. So while we do not know exactly what relationship House Penrose had to House Targaryen that needed containing, we can be reasonably certain there IS a relationship there, and that Elaena and Ronnel's marriage was meant to resolve it.

 

Point taken about Elaena and Alyn Velaryon.  

I agree that Elaena's marriage to Ronnel Penrose was probably arranged under Daeron II, however it being made by Aegon IV is not totally out of the question.  Aegon IV may have wanted to increase ties with the Stormlands for his botched invasion of Dorne.  Similarly, Aegon IV may have also made any arrangements for Daena's marriage; I doubt it, but again we do not know.

[Hippocras]

5 hours ago, Green Stag said:

Point taken about Elaena and Alyn Velaryon.  

I agree that Elaena's marriage to Ronnel Penrose was probably arranged under Daeron II, however it being made by Aegon IV is not totally out of the question.  Aegon IV may have wanted to increase ties with the Stormlands for his botched invasion of Dorne.  Similarly, Aegon IV may have also made any arrangements for Daena's marriage; I doubt it, but again we do not know.

Her wiki page says she maried Ronnel in the reign of Daeron II. Don't know the source though.

[Hippocras]

6 hours ago, Green Stag said:

Valarr Targaryen had a silver-gold streak running through his brown hair.  Elaena also had a streak running through her hair.  

Obviously Elaena isn't Valarr's mother (or other direct ancestor), but could the streak be some clue has to his ancestry?  Just a thought.

Yes, certainly some kind of hint though hard to say what.

If Daena was sent away to Tyrosh in 171 as I suspect, then her first child was Rohanne of Tyrosh. Very close to the time she was born, Viserys II died, and it was Aegon IV who arranged the betrothal of Rohanne and Daemon. Clearly he wanted to secure the allegiance of Daena's line for himself, but also possibly for Daemon. When Daeron II became King, he honoured the betrothal, but also took steps to tie Daena's line, and with it, the alliance with Tyrosh, to his own reign - which explains the marriage of Valarr and Kiera.

But Jena is tricky. We don't know when she was born, but she was probably not extremely different in age from her husband Baelor, which would mean she was probably born before 175, and maybe as early as 165. In other words she was probably too young to have descended from any of Baelor the Blessed's sisters. The only possibility there, and it is a tiny possibility, is that after she was freed from the maidenvault, and before she eventually became a septa, Viserys II married off Rhaena to Lord Dondarrion, and she gave birth to Jena very soon after.

Because we have no evidence Rhaena ever even married or had children, the more likely scenario is that Jena descended from Baela or Rhaena. But another outlandish theory is that Aemon the Dragonknight fathered a bastard at Blackhaven while returning from Dorne with Baelor (or even that BAELOR fathered a bastard there because he was a complete sexual hypocrite). I find this unlikely but intriguing, because it could mean that the Dondarrions descend from Aegon the Uncrowned (via Larissa Velaryon's "Tarth" daughter - speculation) AND from Aemon the Dragonknight (who may also have fathered Daeron II) AND from Baela or Rhaena.

 

Of course, one scenario we have not discussed much is that House Dondarrion was simply powerful and dangerous. They may still have had a touch of dragon blood farther back down the line, but Jena's marriage may have been more about them having a separate alliance with Tyrosh or one of its rivals. In that scenario, Jena's mother was maybe the sister or niece of Daena's husband or maybe even a daughter by an earlier marriage. And so while the Jena marriage in this scenario certainly helped contain the threat posed by Daemon's link to Tyrosh, it was not intended as containment of stray Targaryen bloodlines at all.

Edited July 19, 2023 by Hippocras