Love honour and ob-Frey

[astarkchoice]

Based in another thread

 

Ok your cat.at the twins ....what deal.do you strike ?

My own id supposed robb would need to be on the table BUT the same silver dowry and the girl already picked , no one black walder has sullied and has to be young enough.

-id speak to roose and offer to legitimize ramsay and have him marry a frey that way roose will contact him to behave and not draw attention, it ties the boltons in and gives them a future too!

-squire stays the same

-wards :id agree and even speak to other high lords up north to taken as many lil frey potential hostages as possible !!

-insist all hostility between frey and crannogmen end , allow the crannogmen to freely patrol the areas close to the neck and near frey land without harassment.

Edited July 26, 2023 by astarkchoice

[Aebram]

Those might be good ideas in principle.  But how long would it take to negotiate all that, when the fastest form of transportation is a horse, and the fastest form of communication is a raven? 

Robb and his army were on their way to a war.  Ned was still alive, but wounded and imprisoned.  Robb and Cat needed to reach an agreement quickly, and Walder knew it.

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

I agree with Aebram that the main issue is that time was of the essence. Rob was able to split his army thanks to the Freys which led to the success at the whispering woods. Also, Frey would know Ramsey to be an elevated Bastard, so might take slight at the proposed marriage. Roose himself would be better, being unmarried and lord, any sons would be the new lord of the dread fort anyways. Ultimately, Frey wanted the marriage to a great lord/king that would honor his house. Cat couldn't betroth her captured brother, so that leaves rob. that was enough to get him and his swords. you dont get a much better deal given the circumstances. I dont see Frey and crannogmen getting along in any case though, just vaguely working together like they had. Enmity there seems long given big and little Walder's impression of Jojen and Meera.

[astarkchoice]

9 hours ago, Aebram said:

Those might be good ideas in principle.  But how long would it take to negotiate all that, when the fastest form of transportation is a horse, and the fastest form of communication is a raven? 

Robb and his army were on their way to a war.  Ned was still alive, but wounded and imprisoned.  Robb and Cat needed to reach an agreement quickly, and Walder knew it.

Good points but remember a lot of the bannermen mentioned are sitting outside the twins

[astarkchoice]

4 hours ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

I agree with Aebram that the main issue is that time was of the essence. Rob was able to split his army thanks to the Freys which led to the success at the whispering woods. Also, Frey would know Ramsey to be an elevated Bastard, so might take slight at the proposed marriage. Roose himself would be better, being unmarried and lord, any sons would be the new lord of the dread fort anyways. Ultimately, Frey wanted the marriage to a great lord/king that would honor his house. Cat couldn't betroth her captured brother, so that leaves rob. that was enough to get him and his swords. you dont get a much better deal given the circumstances. I dont see Frey and crannogmen getting along in any case though, just vaguely working together like they had. Enmity there seems long given big and little Walder's impression of Jojen and Meera.

Good points but speed wity the lords are sitting outside.

On reflection If ramsay was elevated hed be the future of the house boltonso it wouldnt be that big a dealbreaker ...so more likely walder wanted roose because of what roose said about him being too old to watch any new child grow!!!  Any new frey heir would grow with his frey mum being lady of the dreadford and her frey entourage ruling the roost...itd be  basicaly a frey takeover in all but name! Walder probably agreed to it as hes never met ramsay and assumed the recently shamed bastard will go meekly vs his the ruthless frey kin.

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

31 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Good points but speed wity the lords are sitting outside.

On reflection If ramsay was elevated hed be the future of the house boltonso it wouldnt be that big a dealbreaker ...so more likely walder wanted roose because of what roose said about him being too old to watch any new child grow!!!  Any new frey heir would grow with his frey mum being lady of the dreadford and her frey entourage ruling the roost...itd be  basicaly a frey takeover in all but name! Walder probably agreed to it as hes never met ramsay and assumed the recently shamed bastard will go meekly vs his the ruthless frey kin.

So, I'm not going to say rob couldn't have taken the twins, but the cost would be far greater than a marriage pact. rob had maybe 22,000 men at that point, while Frey could field 4000. the problem is the crossing would be absolute hell to try and storm, where rob could easily lose a third of his forces if not (likely) more. a prolonged siege would bleed them still, and yeah it would be long. Frey can be confident that Rob would rather meet his terms than fight him, and in tern, Rob gets Freys 4000.

On the second matter, I think you're right. Frey loves his family, and probably did not know what Ramsey was, or at least did not suspect he would eventually murder his half siblings, and Ramsey was not made a Bolton until after the Red Wedding, so Fat Walda's children might have stood to inherit until then. It very well might have seemed like to Frey he was getting a soft coup marrying in and maybe having family acting as regent for the new warden of the north, as he's trying currently with Rosalyn and edmure. either way he gets his bloodline continued in great houses. 

[astarkchoice]

10 minutes ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

So, I'm not going to say rob couldn't have taken the twins, but the cost would be far greater than a marriage pact. rob had maybe 22,000 men at that point, while Frey could field 4000. the problem is the crossing would be absolute hell to try and storm, where rob could easily lose a third of his forces if not (likely) more. a prolonged siege would bleed them still, and yeah it would be long. Frey can be confident that Rob would rather meet his terms than fight him, and in tern, Rob gets Freys 4000.

On the second matter, I think you're right. Frey loves his family, and probably did not know what Ramsey was, or at least did not suspect he would eventually murder his half siblings, and Ramsey was not made a Bolton until after the Red Wedding, so Fat Walda's children might have stood to inherit until then. It very well might have seemed like to Frey he was getting a soft coup marrying in and maybe having family acting as regent for the new warden of the north, as he's trying currently with Rosalyn and edmure. either way he gets his bloodline continued in great houses. 

No man i meant they were right outside  for cat  to go chat to and clear up any deals she made...ya bloodthirsty scamp ya!

 

Yeah roose probably well.knew ramsay could handle himself  after hes gone vs the freys (or he didnt care) and hey..silver dowry too, double bonus!

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

10 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

No man i meant they were right outside  for cat  to go chat to and clear up any deals she made...ya bloodthirsty scamp ya!

oh! haha, yeah agreed. she might have been able to get a better deal if she took advantage of that

[The hairy bear]

Regarding Ramsay, theoretically only kings can legitimize bastards. When the negotiations at the Twins were taking place, Robb wasn't a king, so a marriage with Ramsay had no political value at all.

So yeah, negotiating Roose marriage to Walda Frey would make more sense. But Robb and Catelyn could not force Roose to marry at their will. They would have to offer him something. And a three-part negotiations would probably take too much time.

I honestly believe that, given the time pressure and being Walder the rotten piece of shit that he is, the deal Catelyn struck was probably the best one possible at the moment.

[astarkchoice]

6 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

Regarding Ramsay, theoretically only kings can legitimize bastards. When the negotiations at the Twins were taking place, Robb wasn't a king, so a marriage with Ramsay had no political value at all.

So yeah, negotiating Roose marriage to Walda Frey would make more sense. But Robb and Catelyn could not force Roose to marry at their will. They would have to offer him something. And a three-part negotiations would probably take too much time.

I honestly believe that, given the time pressure and being Walder the rotten piece of shit that he is, the deal Catelyn struck was probably the best one possible at the moment.

True .. the only finesse (in hindsight)  then could be.maybe  asked for more wards spread  around the homes of the northern lords present with kids themselves.... potential hostages to gaurantee good behaviour.