Was incest prevalent in Old Valyria?

[Hippocras]

On 12/4/2023 at 2:34 PM, SaffronLady said:

I meant using Dreamfyre and her riders as a breakthrough point to investigate how dragons choose their riders. If they show intelligence and preference for certain traits that make their riders more similar to themselves, then perhaps they could tell if a claimant's lineage is close enough to their previous rider(s).

I wonder if Aemma rode Dreamfyre. It is never mentioned (correct me if I am wrong) if she rode a dragon at all, but it seems like Dreamfyre might fit in terms of timing. Rhaena died in 73, Aemma was born in 82. Aemma died before Helaena was born. It would fill the time gap nicely.

[SaffronLady]

21 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

It is never mentioned (correct me if I am wrong) if she rode a dragon at all

Yes, though my theory is Aemma never rode a dragon.

22 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

Aemma died before Helaena was born. It would fill the time gap nicely.

I don't think filling time gaps would be necessary, given how dragons like Vermithor and Silverwing were left to chill for a generation. There is a gap to fill for Dreamfyre's case, it could be filled by Aemma, I just don't think it happened.

[Hippocras]

43 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

Yes, though my theory is Aemma never rode a dragon.

Why? She was not her mother. After she married Viserys there wasn't much reason for her not to claim one.

44 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

I don't think filling time gaps would be necessary, given how dragons like Vermithor and Silverwing were left to chill for a generation. There is a gap to fill for Dreamfyre's case, it could be filled by Aemma, I just don't think it happened.

Not strictly necessary, no. But sometimes the dragons may have had a bond we just didn't hear about yet, or the rider needed to die before the new rider could claim them. Noone could ride Vermithor while Jaehaerys was alive and he lived a long time. In the meantime many of his children died so they could not claim his dragon and we don't hear much about which dragons they did claim. Jaehaerys's grandchildren and great-grandchildren were few, and of those a handful were illegitimate ones in Essos who had no access to dragons. 

The dragons don't get claimed if there is noone available to ride them. But Aemma was available, and Dreamfyre was riderless with a history in the Vale. It would have been a reasonable pairing, though of course speculative.

[SaffronLady]

1 hour ago, Hippocras said:

Why? She was not her mother. After she married Viserys there wasn't much reason for her not to claim one.

She wasn't her mother, but she was an Arryn in name. The Targs probably won't want to set a precedent for other Houses claiming dragons. I dunno if her marriage or Laenor claiming Seasmoke came first, though.

The other thing is she had that chain of stillbirths thing going. Old Jae and Good Aly had 7? 8? children that were born healthy, but Aemma had like a 5/6 stillbirth rate. She lacks the dragonrider health and vitality buff, apparently.

1 hour ago, Hippocras said:

Noone could ride Vermithor while Jaehaerys was alive and he lived a long time.

The generation I was referring to was Viserys I's ~20 yrs reign. Ironic. He couldn't find legit Targs to claim his grandfather's dragon, but a bastard claimed it after his death. If he knew this early on, he may as well found Targ cadets in Lys, legitimized them, and set them on the dragons.

[Hippocras]

4 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

She wasn't her mother, but she was an Arryn in name. The Targs probably won't want to set a precedent for other Houses claiming dragons. I dunno if her marriage or Laenor claiming Seasmoke came first, though.

The other thing is she had that chain of stillbirths thing going. Old Jae and Good Aly had 7? 8? children that were born healthy, but Aemma had like a 5/6 stillbirth rate. She lacks the dragonrider health and vitality buff, apparently.

The generation I was referring to was Viserys I's ~20 yrs reign. Ironic. He couldn't find legit Targs to claim his grandfather's dragon, but a bastard claimed it after his death. If he knew this early on, he may as well found Targ cadets in Lys, legitimized them, and set them on the dragons.

After she married Viserys she had the Targaryen name, and her mother was a Targaryen so she had the blood too. I am not sure she would have been seen as a risk in that sense. As for the stillbirths and miscarriages, several dragonriders also struggled with those from time to time too. I really don't see it as much connected to dragon bonding ability, though it would certainly  have affected how often she could actually ride her dragon if she did claim one.

Laenor is definitely interesting in terms of the name I agree. Obviously he had some right via his mother but I see what you mean about "family".

As for Viserys legitimizing Saera's offspring...not sure why he would have? He was not at war so was not really looking for more dragonriders. What he wanted more of was heirs to secure the throne and I don't think Saera's bastards would have helped there.

 

[SaffronLady]

29 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

After she married Viserys she had the Targaryen name, and her mother was a Targaryen so she had the blood too. I am not sure she would have been seen as a risk in that sense.

We really don't have enough data to evaluate what constitutes ok for dragon claiming and what flat no for the Targs, so I was just guessing.

29 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

As for the stillbirths and miscarriages, several dragonriders also struggled with those from time to time too.

Aemma had an ~80% stillbirth rate, compared to her dragonrider grandmother I consider that a margin of significance.

29 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

I see what you mean about "family".

I said "House". The civil wars the Targs had clearly demonstrate they need a lesson on family spirit, though.

29 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

Viserys legitimizing Saera's offspring

No, I meant Targs that broke off from the primary branch prior to the move to Dragonstone and the Doom. I always thought of Lys as Valyria's equivalent of Lannisport for Casterly Rock, hence the idea. Dragonriding Targ cadets would be natural allies of the heir against the heir's siblings and serve as a counter to their ambitions. If Rhaenyra actually had 11 dragonriders on her side, Vhagar or not the Greens won't dare to declare war.

Edited December 5, 2023 by SaffronLady
And contrary to your proposal, Saera's bastards were too high up in the line of succession for this design to work effectively.

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

Did happen on occasion though. According to TWOIAF, one Yi Tish emperor kept a dragon at his court because he was married to a Valyrian noblewoman.

Yes, but that was the Emperor of Yi Ti when Yi Ti was very powerful indeed, and not just some foreign nobility or royalty. It obviously happened rarely.

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Maybe, maybe not.  Jahaerys also knew how prevalent Targaryen bastards were.  So if a group took enough trouble or expense to acquire dragon eggs, then they might take enough trouble or expense to track down Targaryen bastards and/or their progeny to help hatch them. 

But the implication is that the Sealord or the Volatene triarchs could become dragonlords simply by way of hatched dragon eggs. Meaning the idea is that whatever general dragonlord blood the nobility of the Free Cities spread among the people there was deemed potentially sufficient for the formation of a new dragonlord house.

There is no talk or indication that Targaryen dragons need Targaryen descendants around to hatch nor that they could only bond with Targaryen descendants.

Lyman Lannister and his wife Jocasta try what you suggest, but they want to go through Rhaena - a Targaryen dragonrider - hoping to acquire both her blood and/or (at least) some of her dragon eggs. The idea that there were any Targaryen bastards or bastard descendants in Braavos or Volantis by the time of the egg theft is not very likely as there is no indication that this was the case.

4 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

Given how Sealords and triarchs are elected and rotate out of the position, perhaps the risk that potential Sealords and triarchs have enough Targ blood may be enough of a danger? I can't be sure in any case.

It is effectively confirmed that the Old Blood of Volantis - who are described as the cousins and kin of the dragonlords of Valyria in the account on the Rhoynish Wars - are effectively dragonless descendants of the dragonlords. That is why Jaehaerys seems to fear they could become new dragonlords.

The Braavosi elite are mongrel descendants of slaves, but it is easily imaginable that sex slaves from Lys or Valyria itself were among them, people bred and impregnated by dragonlords.

A general look on Targaryen marriage policy in the blood purity department also reveals that it is about Valyrian looks more than the actual degree of kinship on the Targaryen side.

Alyssa Velaryon may have some Targaryen blood, but she is a closer cousin to Aenys on the Velaryon side of the family. Ditto with Corlys whose Targaryen blood, if existent, would be very diluted indeed. Brown Ben Plumm and Quentyn Martell are closer Targaryen cousins than Corlys Velaryon (on the Targaryen side, at least).

Daenaera Velaryon would be an even more distant cousin - yet her Valyrian looks make her - and Larra Rogare - perfect Targaryen brides. Thus it is clear that the crucial thing is Valyrian (dragonlord) blood which seems to be signified in the mind of the people by the characteristic Valyrian looks, not so much by actual degree of kinship.

[Frey family reunion]

33 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But the implication is that the Sealord or the Volatene triarchs could become dragonlords simply by way of hatched dragon eggs. Meaning the idea is that whatever general dragonlord blood the nobility of the Free Cities spread among the people there was deemed potentially sufficient for the formation of a new dragonlord house.

There is no talk or indication that Targaryen dragons need Targaryen descendants around to hatch nor that they could only bond with Targaryen descendants.

Once again though, it’s hard to say.  The timeline is that the dragon eggs are stolen, which causes quite a concern from the crown.

Aerea returns from Valyria possibly, which prompts Septon Barth to earnestly start his studies on dragons.

Around this time the Iron Bank in Braavos starts to make noises about the Crown repaying their debt.

Septon Barth shares his newly gained knowledge of dragons with Jaheaerys.

Jaehaerys gets word of Elissa’s newly made Braavosi ship.  Jaheaerys pieces together that she probably sold the eggs to the Sealord.

Jaheaerys sends Barth to Braavos to raise a stink about the dragon eggs.  

Barth does so, but when he returns from Braavos he returns without the eggs, but having used them as a bargaining chip, got the Iron Bank to forgive the Iron Throne’s debt.

Barth seems well satisfied.

Which might imply that although Barth pretty much confirms the Sealord has the eggs, he also seems fairly unconcerned about them hatching or the Sealords becoming dragon lords.  Perhaps he is unconcerned because of his recent studies concerning their history.

So it might very well be that ultimately Barth convinced Jaheaerys that the Braavosi would not be able to hatch the dragons or become dragon riders.

ETA: I suppose this line of thinking may actually support your original point, that the practice of incest, didn’t occur because there was a necessary link between a Targaryen bloodline and a bloodline of their first dragon.

Or perhaps the real reason for the practice of incest became lost through antiquity and simply became the custom of the dragon lords even though the subsequent generations may have been unaware of the real reason for it.

Edited December 5, 2023 by Frey family reunion

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

So it might very well be that ultimately Barth convinced Jaheaerys that the Braavosi would not be able to hatch the dragons or become dragon riders.

It is very clear threat. Stones are okay. Hatchlings mean war.

I'm with you that Barth might have convinced Jaehaerys that the risk that the eggs would hatch was very low. After all, dragon eggs apparently tend to petrify if they are not kept close to fiery places like Dragonstone.

But the issue we talk about is not hatching - which just happens aside from the Dany miracle - but bonding/claiming. And Jaehaerys clearly fears that the Braavosi Sealord or the Volantene triarchs could become dragonlords if the three stolen eggs were to hatch.

[Frey family reunion]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

It is very clear threat. Stones are okay. Hatchlings mean war.

I'm with you that Barth might have convinced Jaehaerys that the risk that the eggs would hatch was very low. After all, dragon eggs apparently tend to petrify if they are not kept close to fiery places like Dragonstone.

But the issue we talk about is not hatching - which just happens aside from the Dany miracle - but bonding/claiming. And Jaehaerys clearly fears that the Braavosi Sealord or the Volantene triarchs could become dragonlords if the three stolen eggs were to hatch.

I’m not sure that the issue was that the eggs petrified.  They don’t really have any proof that these particular eggs did petrify.  Which is why I think that Barth may have been able to satisfy Jaheaerys that without the Targaryen bloodline, it was very unlikely that the eggs would hatch, even if they had not petrified.

Dany’s miracle wasn’t really hatching dragon eggs, after a long period of dormancy.  Her miracle was that she hatched dragon eggs that had well and truly petrified, and turned to stone.

[Lord Varys]

53 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I’m not sure that the issue was that the eggs petrified.  They don’t really have any proof that these particular eggs did petrify.  Which is why I think that Barth may have been able to satisfy Jaheaerys that without the Targaryen bloodline, it was very unlikely that the eggs would hatch, even if they had not petrified.

Morning is the only dragon which is confirmed to have hatched outside Dragonstone (and she might have come from a fresh egg by Syrax given to Rhaena before she left for the Vale). All the cradle eggs might have hatched on Dragonstone. And hatchlings like Quicksilver and Sunfyre given to princes did hatch on Dragonstone.

But again - Jaehaerys' issue are not dragon eggs hatching, but Targaryen hatchlings in the power of people he thinks have the potential to become dragonlords.

53 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Dany’s miracle wasn’t really hatching dragon eggs, after a long period of dormancy.  Her miracle was that she hatched dragon eggs that had well and truly petrified, and turned to stone.

If Dany's eggs were to turn out to be Elissa's eggs - and the chances are pretty good at this point - then they might have already been stone eggs by the time Elissa gave them to the Sealord. And if that is true then the miracle is just that Dany could revive old Targaryen dragon eggs and not effectively revive something that was completely lifeless by that point. After all, she feels the heat of the eggs and dreams of Drogon, etc., indicating that there is some magical life left in those eggs.

While we know that three eggs produced by Dreamfyre hatched after Rhaena settled on Dragonstone, Elissa stole three other eggs from the hatcheries on Dragonstone - and they could have already been pretty old/dormant/stony eggs at that point. To Elissa those eggs were coin she needed to build and crew her ship, she had no intrinsic motivation to hand the Sealord viable dragon eggs.

[Frey family reunion]

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But again - Jaehaerys' issue are not dragon eggs hatching, but Targaryen hatchlings in the power of people he thinks have the potential to become dragonlords.

16 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

That may give us some insights into the nature of the what Barth relayed to Jaheaerys about dragons.

It’s easier to ride/tame a dragon than it is to hatch a dragon.

And it may still boil down to genetics.  Targaryen bastards can be found that can learn to ride a dragon.  However, it may be very difficult for Targaryen bastards to hatch a dragon.

If so then it may be because of the nature of Targaryen bastards, they almost all tend to be produced by Targaryen males.

Dragon hatching may be something found along the female line.  Or perhaps requires genetics from both the male and female line.  Which brings us back to the necessity of incest.

So perhaps, with this knowledge, Jaehaerys becomes less concerned about Braavos being able to hatch any dragons from the eggs they received.

Although, on the other hand, you would think if that’s the case, Jaehaerys would have been more concerned about Saera whoring in Essos.

[Hippocras]

21 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

Aemma had an ~80% stillbirth rate, compared to her dragonrider grandmother I consider that a margin of significance.

I understand your point. What I was trying to say is that this is how female infertility often manifests, and since Aegon and/or his sisters appears to have been infertile, it is hard to argue that infertility had anything at all to do with dragon bonding. It is not even all that strongly tied to general physical health. Though it can be of course. There is not much indication Aemma was unhealthy, and even if she was, so was Aenys and he grew stronger after dragon bonding. So I just don't see the two things as connected. Aemma's struggles to bear a living child were very real of course.

[Lord Varys]

On 12/6/2023 at 4:27 PM, Frey family reunion said:

That may give us some insights into the nature of the what Barth relayed to Jaheaerys about dragons.

It’s easier to ride/tame a dragon than it is to hatch a dragon.

So far there is no indication that 'dragon hatching' is even a thing. Those eggs just seem to hatch, there is no spell or ritual to it. Magic and rituals only became a thing there when the dragons were gone and the remaining eggs didn't hatch by themselves.

On 12/6/2023 at 4:27 PM, Frey family reunion said:

Although, on the other hand, you would think if that’s the case, Jaehaerys would have been more concerned about Saera whoring in Essos.

Indeed. His concern is dragonlord descendants (and others) having access to his dragons, not so much others having or gaining Targaryen blood. He pushed almost all his daughters to marry, and while family came first in those plans, he had no issue with Daella or Saera or Viserra or Rhaenys marry outside the family.