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YouTube video: Hypocrisy Much ? | Game of Thrones and A Song of Ice and Fire double standards

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13 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Maybe. Maybe not. There are ways of making it quick - it depends on the executioner. Certainly Jon considered hanging for Janos and he's no sadist.

ETA Sadism is the key point for me here because I consider it a mental illness, or close to it.

Good or bad, I don't care, I'm just looking for balance between the male and female characters.


Really tortuous deaths were, if not common, definitely a feature of human society, until quite recently.  Some of the people who inflicted them were sadistic, others of the view that on occasion, a terrible example had to be made.

Martin thinks Stannis is “despite everything, a righteous man”, yet he burns people and sends them to his torturers.

But yes, if Daenerys does something cruel, it’s on-stage.  With Stannis or Robb, it’s usually off-stage.

Edited by SeanF
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15 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Children, their vulnerability and protection, get so much emphasis, I think it's a developing theme that can't be understood at this time, so I'm not going to try. Some children meet excessively brutal attacks (e.g Rhaenys and Aegon). Some get excessively noble protection (e.g. Edric Storm). I'd say Ned is swayed by this theme the most - says (for no good reason), "Robert, I ask you, what did we rise against Aerys Targaryen for, if not to put an end to the murder of children?". Well, many reasons, none of them involving the murder of children. And then of course he risks and loses everything to protect Cersei's children. I wouldn't say he appears mad though, just his fine morals overpowered his judgement.


Yes, it's an odd claim.  Aerys wasn't going after children, especially (I've no doubt terrible things happened to the children of the Darklyns, but nobody cared about them).  Most people who kill children in this world aren't mad at all - as opposed to acting out of ruthless ambition, and for reasons of state.

Apart from Ned, and the Dornish royal family, no one was actually bothered about what was done to Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon.  The general attitude was either approval, or indifference.

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On 2/2/2024 at 5:53 AM, Springwatch said:

Aerys is the maddest ruler to be sure, but it's the prominence that hits and hurts for me. Aerys is a 'history' character, he's not a point of view, we don't spend a lot of time with him - the pull on our emotions is just not there. The same is true for all the other Fire and Blood characters - to me anyway - e.g. Alysanne may be a good queen, but her history doesn't have the life and force of a major character in Asoiaf. We don't spend enough time with her either - so due to availability error alone, Alysanne can't and doesn't balance out Cersei. 

I agree with all of this: I was responding to another post referring to historical figures of Westeros, but confined to the main ASOIAF story, there aren't many stellar examples of great female leaders so far.  (Of course there are plenty of posters in this forum who claim that Dany is the absolute best of the best, but to that I strongly disagree.)

Some of this bias is due to George Martin's stance that he will never write the POV of a king, but apparently he doesn't have that caveat for queens.  So we see Dany's inner thoughts but not Stannis's, who are somewhat morally equivalent.  And Cersei's thoughts but not Euron's, who are both reprehensible.

On 2/2/2024 at 5:53 AM, Springwatch said:

Catelyn, Lysa and Cersei are strongly linked to mental instability.

I don't agree about Catelyn.  She wasn't at her best immediately after Bran's fall but she hadn't slept for days.  As soon as she did sleep, she was perfectly rational.  Catelyn is a much-hated character for reasons I never understood (I disliked her treatment of Jon, but that's not the main reason for anti-Catelyn resentment).  I find her one of the most thoughtful and insightful characters in the series: her train of thoughts before arresting Tryion- as poor as that decision might seem retrospectively- was very well-thought out and completely rational.

Of course Catelyn went berserk at the Red Wedding after her son was murdered right in front of her.  I'll allow her five seconds of insanity; the test is how she would have coped 5 days later, but she never got more than 5 seconds before she was murdered.  Lady Stoneheart is not Catelyn Stark.

The "Tully Madness" thread is absolute crap.

On 2/2/2024 at 5:53 AM, Springwatch said:

there's a sort of consistency to Jaime's statement that all mothers are mad (Dany, Cersei, Lysa, Catelyn)

I also agree that the story has been a little excessive with the mad mothers, but with Lysa, I largely blame her mental illness on the lifetime of a manipulative psychopath gaslighting her.  I don't think Dany is mad or will go mad (hallucinogenic conversations with blades of grass aside), and I don't think any of her perceived "madness" has anything to do with her lost child; Dany willingly sacrificed Rhaego to save her husband and showed little remorse about Rhaego's death.  Cersei was "consistently heinous" long before motherhood.  Cersei's "great love for her children" is show-fabricated, and I don't think any of her evil actions are rooted in concern for her children's well-being.

But... Theon and Asha's mother is still in a constant state of despair and mourning 10 years after the Greyjoy Rebellion, and there were multiple counts of Targaryen queens "going mad" after their children passed that did not impact the fathers in the same way.  And maybe Catelyn would have become permanently mad after Robb's death: we don't know since she's dead (and Lady Stoneheart doesn't count).

I don't give Jaime too much credit for his words of wisdom about motherhood.  He doesn't understand the concept of a mother loving her children (he didn't love any of his own), so he sees all of that as a form of madness.  And Cersei is his measuring stick for motherhood/womanhood, which gives him an extremely tainted view.

On 2/2/2024 at 5:53 AM, Springwatch said:

Ned and Robb are major characters and 'good' rulers. Tragic, of course, but doing their damnedest to rule wisely and well, with very humane instincts, and totally sane. There's no female equivalent

I agree so far... but the story isn't over yet.  Brienne is considered by almost everybody (myself included) as the "truest of knights" despite not being an actual knight.  She's one of the most dutiful and moral characters in the story, so she is certainly a role model if not an actual ruler... yet.  Though it is not often stressed, Brienne is the heir of Tarth.  That said, I find it a little unlikely that ruling Tarth is in Brienne's future.

I may be completely wrong, but I expect that Sansa will become the great ruler of ASOIAF.  She is the most improved POV character by far, going from a bratty spoiled child to become very compassionate and wise.  Even after telling herself that she must hate all Lannisters, she still felt compassion for Lancel during the Battle of Blackwater.  Formerly snobby about her "bastard half-brother", she is now living as a bastard and becoming much more empathetic.  Her thoughts are intentionally obscured by George Martin: at this point we don't know if she believes Lysa's claims about Petyr's crimes or not so that we will be "surprised" when she does whatever she does... but I think it is very unlikely that she is going to become Petyr's mini-me as Petyr hopes.  I think her great power will be to become a great player of the game of thrones while being the one player who isn't evil by playing it.

But obviously this is just my speculation, and we'll never know unless the next books finally come out.

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Not all women who were mentioned here were/are "women in power", and by "power" I mean decisional one. Even the three that had/have that kind of power (Dany, Cersei and Lysa) differ from one another in terms of their source of power and its limitations. Lysa was regional and not the most powerful either, while Cersei is a Regent. We still don't know what she is going to do in the coming books. Her story is not over yet. The one with the greatest power is Dany and she didn't accumulate that power by being stupid.

Neither Catelyn nor Sansa were in a position of power. Sansa least of all. She was basically a prisoner, and still is for all intents and purposes. Catelyn was a great Lady and with authority but she didn't have any power outside her household managerial duties. Arianne is a princess and heir but not a ruler. Mel has "magic" powers but the only reason most people obey to her, or don't dare to go against her, is because she is backed by Stannis.

Anyway, I think it depends how each of us readers see them, but it's unfair to say they are written as stupid or crazy. Cersei is...well, Cersei. lol I would've liked for her to be a Catherina Sforza or Isabella d'Este type of regent. But you can't become a Sforza or d'Este by being the daughter or Tywin Lannister, so there is that. Besides, she is a great character to read. Which is one of the most important factors in a story/book.

Lysa obviously had mental issues and given her backstory I feel empathy and some sympathy for her, despite her actions. She actually doesn't seek power and doesn't care for it. All she ever wanted was love and affection. Unfortunately, she sought for it in the wrong person. A person to whom also a good man (Ned) fell victim of, and I never considered him stupid either. Although I know some do, IMO unfairly. 

All female characters in the books, with very few exceptions, have flaws and qualities, just like the male characters. I don't even think Cersei is stupid. I think she is selfish and she is paranoid (which is not entirely baseless,) so she acts on impulses and "feelings", and some preconceived notions of power and male leadership. The "male" thing is a key issue with her, I think. I could be wrong here but I find that a very fascinating and intriguing aspect of her to explore.

Dany, Catelyn and Sansa are very much loved by many fans. I'm not a big fan of neither Catelyn nor Sansa, but I've never seen them as weak or stupid. Show Sansa, yes, but not book Sansa. 

Edited by Adaneth
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