The Dragons and their Riders - Interpretations

[Hippocras]

Does anyone have any old links for threads discussing the symbolism of dragons, the meaning of who rode which ones etc.?

If not, would love to hear people's ideas because I am sure that, just as with the direwolves, the choices GRRM makes related to dragons have a high degree of symbolism.

[Hippocras]

Some thoughts on Balerion:

I think he represents the line that left Valyria. He was one of 5 dragons then (who we can suspect were ridden by Aenar, a sister-wife, another sibling, Daenys, and Gaemon). Balerion was IMO probably either Aenar's or Gaemon's.

Balerion was later ridden by Aegon I, then Maegor. My guess is he was also ridden by Maegon before Aegon, with Maegon's only child, a girl,  being Valaena Velaryon and her brother Daemon's Targaryen mother (ie. grandmother of the conquerors).

Princess Aerea claimed Balerion in 54 AC but could not control him (she was the only known female rider so....because of gender? or lineage?). Did he take her to Valyria because he sensed the Targaryens were losing their roots, much like Drogon taking Dany to the Dothraki sea?

Jaehaerys's heir Aemon died in 92 AC. Prince Viserys, whose father became heir upon Aemon's death, claimed Balerion in 93 AC (a bond based in Viserys's love of Old Valyrian history?) . Then Balerion died in 94 AC. This timing is interesting to me.
 

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

Balerion was born in Valyria and came to Westeros when Aenar moved the Targaryens to the island.  Aenar was the head of the family but I don't recall if it was ever said he rode Balerion.  Not that it would matter.  The most important in the family was the young daughter.  Daenys the Dreamer. 

I think the names of the dragons are more important.  Drogon is the reincarnation of Khal Drogo.  He is bonded to Dany in more ways than the standard Targaryen and dragon bond.  The dragons are blessings to Dany from the gods for the loss of her husband, brother, and son. 

[Hippocras]

4 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Balerion was born in Valyria and came to Westeros when Aenar moved the Targaryens to the island.  Aenar was the head of the family but I don't recall if it was ever said he rode Balerion.  Not that it would matter.  The most important in the family was the young daughter.  Daenys the Dreamer. 

I think the names of the dragons are more important.  Drogon is the reincarnation of Khal Drogo.  He is bonded to Dany in more ways than the standard Targaryen and dragon bond.  The dragons are blessings to Dany from the gods for the loss of her husband, brother, and son. 

I have a strong hunch that Daenys was not Balerion's rider. I don't think Balerion ever really wanted to leave Valyria and considered it his home. Balerion looked to the Valyrian past. Daenys was the break with that past.

Now as for the list I gave above of potential riders (Aenar, wive(s), sibling(s), children), I am certainly open to arguments on who suits Balerion the Black Dread the most. But my bet is that Daenys rode a female dragon who was the mother of the next generation of dragons.

[Hippocras]

Some thoughts on Vhagar:

She hatched in 52 BC and was named for a god of Old Valyria. It stands out to me that we are given such a specific date half-way through the Century of Blood for her hatching. We do not have any historical events to connect to this date so it is hard to interpret. All we can do is place her relative to the Targaryen family tree: She would have hatched somewhere around the time of Daemion Targaryen's birth (or one of his siblings), and possibly shortly after the death of Maegon.

Vhagar's death during the Dance potentially marked the end of Velaryon prominence in the Targaryen succession because, while it is true that Daenaera Velaryon became queen, her sons did not have children and her daughters never ruled. I am open to suggestions as to what else Vhagar's death might represent.

Vhagar was ridden by Visenya (eldest but female), Prince Baelon (a second son, fierce), then Laena (eldest but female), then Aemond (a second son, fierce). There is no direct line of descent connecting these characters unless we look further back, and speculate on missing members from the joined family trees: I would guess that Valaena's unnamed Targaryen mother is the key and that she was a passed over female, probably the daughter of Maegon. Prince Baelon, Vhagar's second known rider, did not descend from Visenya but did descend from both Valaena and her brother Daemon, as did Laena. Aemond IMO probably fits this pattern as well, but the path is speculative and a topic for another thread.

[chrisdaw]

The historic dragons are foreshadowing characters (and Direwolves) and stand ins to foreshadow events. Sunfyre Jaime, Maelys Melisandre, Daemon's I can't remember the name of (I just always remember its description as a bloodworm) for Ghost, the one that hung around Trident the for Arya's Nymeria. There's a lot more weaker connections I've detailed in at least one prior topic but I can't remember it all off my head.

Aemond on Vhaegar at the battle of the God's Eye foreshadow an ice dragon in what will be the determining battle of the final series. Saphire eye, turning to water on death for plunging into the water body below, death by a sword to the eye which is how the ice dragon will be felled.

Moondancer and particularly its fight against the larger dragon that I can't remember where Moondancer is described as fighting in a dancing style is describing Arya's fighting style against a larger opponent in a particular upcoming fight (probably Jaime).

It's mostly conveyed through close similarities in the language which becomes apparent when they're side by side. Like the brilliance of Jaime (Jon and Cat's descriptions at least) and the paragraph dedicated to swooning over Sunfyre's golden beauty.

There's more straight symbolism in the current dragons because they are second lifes of characters we've seen in main series and will continue those character themes. Symbolism runs from their personality traits, physical attributes and naming. Drogo is Drogon is the alpha free roamer of the Dothraki plains who refuses captivity and basks in news of Robert's death, Dany's partner. Will be fucked with by pirate extraordinaire Euron as the Dothraki consider the sea water poison.

Viserion is Viserys, the cruel younger brother who forever plays the victim and longs to be loved. Also longs for the throne and decries having been denied his birthright. Note the colouring is specific reference to Viserys death, and the cream egg with gold swirls is literally to mirror Viserys pale head and face being seared into by molten gold. Viserys is really the proto Tyrion (as Daario is the proto Euron), the cruel selfish brother, Tyrion will ride Viserys, betray Dany and eventually win the throne. There's a poignant vision Dany has of Viserys screaming at her that he will be crowned, consider that Viserys second lifed Viserion and that is his goal/future that will become Tyrions.

Rhaegal, MMD, to be ridden by Aegon/Faegon. The betrayer, fake, who will begin as a friend, Dany may even give him Rhaegal. Note problems for Dany come in green, those uncomfortable green slippers that were given to her as a gift for example. Aegon will die screaming in Dany's fire after they've both devastated and ripped the realm in two, as MMD divided the Khalasar by killing Drogo, leaving Dany with a small power base from which she will have to work from (again). Dany will probably kill Rhaegal too in killing Aegon, though maybe the dragon will outlive its rider.

[Hippocras]

@chrisdaw do you have the link.

[chrisdaw]

Can't find it at present, maybe I put my round up it in a reply to someone else's topic rather than making my own. This decade old topic was what kicked off the realisation of how the historic dragons were being used by GRRM, hence why I can't remember a lot.

 

[Hippocras]

It is all a bit speculative. It makes assumptions about what will happen then says the dragons predict it. Which is logic I find a bit problematic because it can't be proven or disproven until the books are finished.

I do tend to agree these creatures are foreshadowing for future mind you, it is just that without an actual future to connect it to, we are all grasping and should not feel too certain in our predictions.

I personally am not all that convinced by the ice dragon theories for one: Yes, there was an ice dragon in the show, but that felt to me like a simplification of events that are actually happening much further South in the books (related to Euron and Aegon).

Also, if people want to connect Jaime to Sunfyre, as in the post above, they had better well give me very clear and worked out logic for why Sunfyre has anything at all to do with a Lannister born more than 150 years after Sunfyre died. Because I don't see it. The colour gold is SOOOOO far from being enough and every single Targaryen ever was handsome (in their youth) so Jaime is hardly the only good looking man to ever live in Westeros.

[chrisdaw]

Yes it is speculative and I am not of a mind to try and convince any one person on specific foreshadowing. I have always been hopeful though that there will be people who will see design rather than coincidences, because this stuff is really not random, and if more people get it more insights will be provided.

The Ice Dragon is a constellation with a blue star for its eye, ice dragons are described as having pale crystal eyes. Aemond is the chief baddy of the Dance and puts a blue sapphire in his lost eye. Daemon uses the sun to defeat Aemond, and thrusts his Valyrian steel sword through the sapphire eye. The dragons fall into a body of water with a massive splash, an ice dragon is said to turn to water when it dies. This is basically the culmination of the Dance.

 

[Hippocras]

1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

The Ice Dragon is a constellation with a blue star for its eye, ice dragons are described as having pale crystal eyes. Aemond is the chief baddy of the Dance and puts a blue sapphire in his lost eye. Daemon uses the sun to defeat Aemond, and thrusts his Valyrian steel sword through the sapphire eye. The dragons fall into a body of water with a massive splash, an ice dragon is said to turn to water when it dies. This is basically the culmination of the Dance.

Yes, I do not deny that this stuff is interesting and seems to relate to the Dance. It is just less convincing when applied to predicting the main series.

Either the Others already HAVE ice dragons, in which case.... why aren't they using them already? Or they do not and they need to make one. A dragon is the embodiment of fire, so the whole notion that the Others can take a dead fire beast and simply turn it into something that is the opposite of itself is.... I don't know. It falls flat.

I prefer ice monsters to be ice monsters, not fiery in origin. Something is off. According to the legends, ice dragons are MADE of ice. How can something made of fire then be made of ice?

I guess I just really am not seeing any way that an actual ice dragon would make this series better, rather than worse, and GRRM usually has good instincts. The events surrounding Aemond and Dameon at the God's Eye were a good story; but ramping it up to something more literal would be worse, not better.

 

Now... as a prediction for Euron fighting Aegon, both of them on some kind of bastardized version of a dragon - well that would be better would it not?

[Hippocras]

These are the remaining dragons known to have had more than one rider, although patterns are difficult to establish with only 2 riders each to draw from:

Meleys - The Red Queen had only two known riders; Alyssa and Rhaenys. Both might have been queens if not for circumstance. Alyssa is interesting because her name has its origin in the Vale of Arryn and came to her via her grandmother Alyssa Velaryon whose own grandmother may have been of Vale origin  ( IMO a match made as part of the peace efforts following the Conquest of the Vale where the Velaryon fleet fought the Vale fleet at Gulltown ). Alyssa Velaryon was of course both the grandmother on her mother's side, and the great-grandmother on her father's side of Princess Rhaenys. We can then maybe think of Meleys as the dragon for Alyssa Velaryon's line. Alyssa Targaryen, sister-wife of Baelon, had unusual colouring for a Targaryen: She had mis-matched eyes (one green, one violet) and blonde hair (not silver). Rhaenys had black hair, also diverging from general Targaryen traits.

Dreamfyre - Similarly Dreamfyre also had only two known riders, both female, this time both dark and tragic. It is possible that she could have been Aemma Arryn's dragon if Aemma ever rode one, as Aemma's life span fits coincidentally well into the time period when Dreamfyre was without a known rider. Except that Aemma doesn't seem to fit thematically. The two characters known to ride her were Rhaena Targaryen, whose line may have ended with her daughters, and Helaena Targaryen, whose line also ended. Both characters had links to Oldtown, as Rhaena's daughter spent most of her life there as a septa, her nephew as an archmaester, while Helaena's mother Alicent came from there.

Caraxes - The two known riders of Caraxes were Aemon, Jaehaerys's heir, and Daemon, Visery's brother. Daemon extended Aemon's line via his wife Laena but did not descend from Aemon himself. These two men had quite different personalities I suppose the main point these two have in common, beyond the merging of the Baratheon and Velaryon lines via Jocelyn and her descendants is engagement in conflict with Essosi pirates.

Silverwing - Alysanne, Ulf the White - no connections by either blood or theme come to mind.
Vermithor - Jaehaerys, Hugh Hammer - no connections by either blood or theme come to mind.

[Diego Cobo Sánchez]

Personally, I don't think the symbolism goes too far where dragons and their riders are concerned. Because as far as we know, the dragons that had more than one rider had a big variety in the kind of person that flew on their backs. Let us mention a few examples:

-Balerion the Black Dread: its riders were Aegon the Conqueror (a peerless warrior who proved also a stable and effective monarch); Maegor the Cruel (a mighty, strong warrior who usurped the throne and degraded into a merciless tyrant); princess Aerea (an unfairly displaced heir to the throne who was fiery and bold yet inmature, and proved unable to tame the mighty beast); and Viserys the Peaceful (a pleasant and merry monarch who presided a long era of prosperity but naively failed to stop the huge civil war that began after his demise).

-Vhagar: she was mounted by Queen Visenya (a ferocious warrior and sorceress who proved an able monarch, yet was most untrusting and obsessed with securing the throne for her evil son); Baelon the Brave (a worthy and friendly prince and soldier who usurped his niece's claim to the throne); Laena Velaryon (a daring and beloved lady of Drifmark); and Aemond One-Eye (an embittered fighting prince who perished in a war he helped start, deadly but reckless).

-Dreamfyre: her riders were Rhaena the Queen in the East (a beautiful, bold and dutiful yet betrayed and tragic princess who became embittered by her experiences and ended up ruining almost everyone around her) and Queen Helaena (a sweet, innocent mother who became broken by murder and ended up sinking into depression and insanity).

-Vermithor the Bronze Fury: ridden by Jaehaerys the Conciliator (a most able and accomplished monarch, hard and merciful by turns, stubborn yet wise); and Hugh Hammer (an oppostunistic and faithless turncloak who only served himself and wanted to bite more than he could chew).

-Silverwing: ridden by Good Queen Alysanne (a kind, caring and attentive queen and mother who loved the smallfolk and her family and was loved by them in turn); Ulf the White (a treacherous backstabber and idiot whose greatest talent was drinking).

-Meleys the Red Queen: mounted by princess Alyssa (a mischievous and lusty princess who liked to live the full life); and Rhaenys the Queen Who Never Was (a fiery, capable, dutiful and usurped princess who suffered reverses with dignity and was also a brave dragonrider).

-Seasmoke: its riders were Laenor Velaryon (a sweet, harmless man who was thrust into a game he didn't want to play and was slain because of that); and his son Addam the Loyal (faithful and brave to the end, he perished in a suicide attack to save his comrades-in-arms).

-Etcetera.

As you can see, any one dragon can be ridden by any kind of person, so long as they have the necessary dragon blood. 

[Hippocras]

@Diego Cobo Sánchez writers such as GRRM generally do not make things entirely random: they make deliberate choices because there is, frankly, no reason not to if a dragon needs to be assigned to a character anyway. There is no direct bloodline descent for most of these riders who shared dragons, however there are certainly thematic relationships between them.

For example, the known riders of Meleys were Alyssa Targaryen and her niece Rhaenys. Both were Targaryens who looked different; Alyssa had dirty blonde hair and one green eye while Rhaenys had black hair. Both were queens who never were, with Rhaenys passed over first when Baelon became Jaehaerys's heir, then later at the great council. Alyssa was not passed over but she was married to an heir, and was the mother of the future King. Like Rhaenys, she was fierce and fearless.

So I disagree with you, even if I agree the pattern is not straightforward.

[Landis]

Show canon diverges from book canon obviously, but HOTD relates that Daenys rode Balerion, so they are going with at least three of the four known riders of Balerion being dreamers.

[Hippocras]

16 hours ago, Landis said:

Show canon diverges from book canon obviously, but HOTD relates that Daenys rode Balerion, so they are going with at least three of the four known riders of Balerion being dreamers.

No sign Maegor or Aerea were dreamers? Even Viserys in the books shows no sign of it and Aegon the only sign is because of a comment from GRRM, nothing in the books except an unattributed "Valyrian" prophesy about the end of the world coming from the North (not specifically Targaryen).

I am going with this being a show thing, because the pattern with Balerion is more of nostalgia for the might of old Valyria.