Sandor's bloody cloak in the cedar chest

[Dutchman]

My apologies if someone already mentioned this, I freely admit to skipping a few posts.

My Mother in Law is GRRM's age, and the concept of the "Cedar Chest" has resonated with her for the 20 years I've known her. I'm thinking this is a generational thing, not a huge peice of foreshadowing and deep meaning.

Something about Cedar with people in their 50's 60's, they feel the need to mention cedar as the wood.

Dutch

[flyingporridge]

I totally think Sandor's still an idealist a heart. He claims that all the vows to defend the weak, claims of honor and gods are nonsense and lies. But if he thinks they are only the delusions of the weak and stupid, why is he so angry at hypocritical knights? Why does he care about honesty? Wouldn't he rather think it all an admirable racket?

[Shadow Cat]

I totally think Sandor's still an idealist a heart. He claims that all the vows to defend the weak, claims of honor and gods are nonsense and lies. But if he thinks they are only the delusions of the weak and stupid, why is he so angry at hypocritical knights? Why does he care about honesty? Wouldn't he rather think it all an admirable racket?

I see him as an extreme example of the extremely jaded idealist.

[Shadow Cat]

I always thought murder-suicide was far more likely in that scene than rape ever was.

I'm generally in agreement with No Ser on this one. I think murder maybe, but not suicide. At the end of ACOK Sandor had lost pretty much everything. As Thoros put it:

"He has lost his master and kennel as well. He cannot go back to the Lannisters, the Young Wolf would never have him, nor would his brother be like to welcome him. That gold was all he had left, it seems to me."

However, he had not yet hit rock bottom. That I believe is a major part of his story during ASOS. It is his decent to rock bottom. So at the beginning you see him taking moderate risks (The Huntsman had found him passed out under a tree), but also with a good deal of fight left in him in his exchanges with the BWB. Then approaching the Twins he uses the disguise to get close rather than boldly rushing in. And when the Red Wedding actually happens he tells Arya "Maybe you can. I'm not done living yet." Then his options are less and Arya notes His dream of selling Arya to Lady Arryn died there in the hills. Then not even the lowly villagers will have him stay around long term. So basically he's spiraling into depression and taking more risks so that by the time they reach the inn Sandor no longer troubled to hide his face. He no longer seemed to care who knew him. And of course he was very foolish to get massively drunk when he knew full well he might need to fight. Yet even after getting injured he still pushes on when they leave the inn with supplies to treat his wounds which he then has Arya do. It's not until the very end where he is feverish and dying that he truely hits rock bottom and is ready to die.

As a separate observation of Sandors relationships with the two sisters. With Sansa he shares something of his past - how he got burned, the story of his grandfather. With Arya it seems to be he shares something of his dreams for the future. Part of that is the goal of there trek together; however, I thought this exchange, after he calls her a "Stupid blind little wolf bitch" is as close as we've gotten to what he might really desire:

"... You're worth twice what they stole from me, I'd say. Maybe even more if I sold you back to the Lannisters like you fear, but I won't. Even a dog gets tired of being kicked. If this Yound Wolf has the wits the gods gave a toad, he'll make me a lordling and beg me to enter his service. He needs me, though he may not know it yet. Maybe I'll even kill Gregor for him, he'd like that."

So Sandor wants a little keep of his own, to work for someone who values him, and a to kill Gregor.

[redcandle17]

"He needs me, though he may not know it yet."

I've never known what to make of that line. What exactly does he think Robb needs him for? Just to kill Gregor? Gregor's valuable, but not so valuable that his death makes a difference to Robb's war effort.

[siyrean]

i think it's because Sandor knows Lanisters. he'd probably be very valuble in terms of council as to what they might do next.

as for The Scene, i can see him stumbling drunk to her room trying to talk himself into raping her but never really comming to a resolve. instead he has a nice little chitchat with her and only when he thinks she's rejecting him does he get angry and decide fine i'm doing it. of course we know how that went.

i think he has the same issues Jamie has with wearing the cloak he just hides it better. i'm sure Joffrey didn't consider the Hound the same way he did the other white cloaks. the man had been around him since a young age and thus would be bullied easily. it's like Tyrion says, Joff wouldn't go to Sandor to kill Bran because he would simply tell to Cercei

[valar readmartin]

Course, Sansa understands why he ran, that and I'm guessing that he did it not only because he disobeyed orders during a battle due to his phobia about fire, but because it was probably only a matter of time before there was a confrontation with Joff ... Joff might have ordered Sandor to beat Sansa eventually, or worse. I wonder how that would have gone down.

Here's another clue on page 847, COK. Sansa is with the Queen in the ballroom at the beginning of the battle. Sansa's thinking about the Kettleblacks:

"Of late Ser Osmund had taken Sandor Clegane's place by Joffrey's side..."

And why would this be? Can't stomach the little sh*t anymore?

[valar readmartin]

I like the symbolism of the cedar chest. That’s good.

I also hope these “True Knight†hints mean there’s some redemption in Sandor’s future:

Cersei’s comment to Sansa in the Queen’s ballroom, pg 818. (my paperback COK, anyway)

Sansa: “True Knights would never harm women and children.†The words rang hollow in her ears even as she said them.

“True Knights.†The queen seemed to find that wonderfully amusing. “No doubt you’re right. So why don’t you just eat your broth like a good girl and wait for Symeon Star-Eyes and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight to come rescue you, sweetling. I’m sure it won’t be very long now.â€

No, it wasn’t!

And then back when she meets Dontos for the first time in the Godswood. She’d been praying for a true knight to come rescue her and bring her home. She meets Dontos, but then who does she bump into on the stairs? I love the contrast between Sandor and Dontos, who Sansa thinks at the time is the answer to those prayers. Will Sandor take her home eventually? Even if not, the irony that he later offers to take her and she refuses is just wonderful.

[redcandle17]

I also hope these “True Knight†hints mean there’s some redemption in Sandor’s future:

There's also the nightmare she has of being trapped in the mob again and screaming for her dead father and her brothers and the heroes from the songs but no one comes. I think Sandor will be her hero(more than he already has been) but he's going to die in the process. Sansa doesn't seem to realize the significance of the fact that all the songs she loves are tragedies.

[Darcia]

And then back when she meets Dontos for the first time in the Godswood. She’d been praying for a true knight to come rescue her and bring her home. She meets Dontos, but then who does she bump into on the stairs?

I always found it strange that she just happened to bump into Sandor on the stairs. What was he doing there just lurking in the dark? I think that he must have seen her going up the stairs to the Godswood, and was waiting for her to come back down, right?

[redcandle17]

I always found it strange that she just happened to bump into Sandor on the stairs. What was he doing there just lurking in the dark? I think that he must have seen her going up the stairs to the Godswood, and was waiting for her to come back down, right?

He came out of a "hidden doorway." I got the impression he was returning to the castle from a night of drinking and possibly whoring. However, the scene when she goes up to the roof of Maegor's Holdfast and he catches her before she can fall - I've always wondered if he was already up there or if he followed her. Being a bodyguard can disguise stalker tendencies well, it seems.

[Tourmaline Dragon]

I always found it strange that she just happened to bump into Sandor on the stairs. What was he doing there just lurking in the dark? I think that he must have seen her going up the stairs to the Godswood, and was waiting for her to come back down, right?

I have always found it strange too…yeah I am sure he bumped into Sansa on purpose! He must have seen her go to the godswood…I got the impression he kept tabs on her a lot.

Maybe he was up on that roof because Sansa’s room wasn’t far from there, because he was subconsciously drawn to her, he’s her dog after all, so brooding up there all by himself on the eve of battle was a way of being near to her, I don’t think he expected to see her and may not have bothered to let her know he was there if she hadn’t almost fallen….maybe he was hanging out on that roof regularly!

[Tourmaline Dragon]

Oops double post

[Sijjvra Visz]

Oh he totally stalked her. It probably wasn't the first time he lurked around near where she was and just kept out of sight. I find this creepy and yet somehow extremely romantic...in a psychotic sort of way.

[No Ser]

There's also the nightmare she has of being trapped in the mob again and screaming for her dead father and her brothers and the heroes from the songs but no one comes. I think Sandor will be her hero(more than he already has been) but he's going to die in the process. Sansa doesn't seem to realize the significance of the fact that all the songs she loves are tragedies.

I confess to being a hopeless, helpless romantic and this would be a romantic ending ala Romeo and Juliet. However, I really hope that this is not how their story ends. GRRM has done such an interesting job taking characters to unexpected places that I would be kinda disappointed if the storyline ended in such a conventional, tear-jerker manner. I hope that as Sandor is destined to be more than just a vehicle to save Sansa (again). Or that, at least, there is a different twist on the relationship --maybe Sansa saves him and dies?

[Darcia]

He came out of a "hidden doorway." I got the impression he was returning to the castle from a night of drinking and possibly whoring.

The reason I thought he was waiting for her, was because he lurched out of a hidden doorway, which suggests to me that he was standing still, then moved suddenly to grab her as she went past. And he knows that it is her straight away, even though she was running down the stairs, in the dark. Very suspicious.

However, the scene when she goes up to the roof of Maegor's Holdfast and he catches her before she can fall - I've always wondered if he was already up there or if he followed her

I always thought he followed her, but I don't have any reasons. He must have been standing quite close to her though, to be able to catch her, as she nearly fell.

[The_BlauerDragon]

I confess to being a hopeless, helpless romantic and this would be a romantic ending ala Romeo and Juliet. However, I really hope that this is not how their story ends. GRRM has done such an interesting job taking characters to unexpected places that I would be kinda disappointed if the storyline ended in such a conventional, tear-jerker manner. I hope that as Sandor is destined to be more than just a vehicle to save Sansa (again). Or that, at least, there is a different twist on the relationship --maybe Sansa saves him and dies?

Hey, I could totally get behind that one... Of course, I'm in support of anything that ends in Sansa's death, but I really like the Hound, so for me it'd be a win-win situation...

Oh, and when you put the fact that he was coming out of a hidden passage together with that line about Robb needing him but not knowing it, and Sandor's apparent tendency towards being off by himself in dark/secluded places... It may be possible that Robb needed him because he was one of the Spider's birds and knew a great deal more about everything than he was letting on. Plausible? Or is my Pot cracked?

[No Ser]

I've often wondered if Sandor was one of Vary's spies. He does seem to have a way of melting into the shadows. Of course the whole emerging from teh shadows stuff could also just be foreshadowing of Sandor emerging from the dark in general.

[Tourmaline Dragon]

There is just no way in a million years I could see a man like Sandor being a spy for Varys.

Oh he totally stalked her. It probably wasn't the first time he lurked around near where she was and just kept out of sight. I find this creepy and yet somehow extremely romantic...in a psychotic sort of way.

Yes I agree!…he was stalking her! I also find it creepy but rather endearingly romantic…well it is romantic coming from Sandor, he’s in physiological turmoil plus clueless as to how to woo a girl, so I find it very plausible that he would stalk/wait for her in the door way!

If you do a re-read you can read more into it, it’s easier to see that GRRM was trying to show the reader that some of their encounters were actually orchestrated by Sandor but it never crossed my mind that he followed her up onto the roof, maybe he did?

He kept bringing her up with Arya too, got that little bird on the brain…it must be rather boring being a gravedigger, he must be digging all those graves dreaming away about her lol!

and did anyone notice that Elder Brother immediately knew it was Sansa when Brienne simply said “a highborn maid of three and ten, with fair face and auburn hair� Either Sansa is really famous or Sandor blabbed about her when he was feverish.

[redcandle17]

and did anyone notice that Elder Brother immediately knew it was Sansa when Brienne simply said “a highborn maid of three and ten, with fair face and auburn hair� Either Sansa is really famous or Sandor blabbed about her when he was feverish.

Yes. If his conversations with Arya are anything to go by, Sansa is Sandor's second favorite topic(his favorite being Gregor). I would imagine lusting after the twelve year old betrothed of the king he's sworn to protect is confession-worthy. Septon Meribald also listened to confessions the night he, Brienne and co. stayed at the Quiet Isle. Bet he no longer found the monks' confessions boring after listening to the gravedigger.