Sandor's bloody cloak in the cedar chest

[Ser Tollah The Honest]

Why is Littlefinger a dirty pedo whereas Sandor wanting to rape and murder her is romantic?

Women.

I personally would rather see her nailing Littlefinger. That would be a glorious victory. King Littlefinger forever!

[Trackrunner]

Why is Littlefinger a dirty pedo whereas Sandor wanting to rape and murder her is romantic?

If Sandor honestly wanted to rape and murder Sansa, why didn't he?

Personally, I love Littlefinger too. I think he's one of the best characters in the series. But naming your childhood sweetheart's daughter after your mother and making her call you "father" while you kiss her? Just... eww. Even Sandor's not that twisted.

[PhoenixFlame]

I <3 this thread!

One thing I noticed that no one has pointed out is that Sansa has rather kinky dreams of the Hound. Remember when she was in Littlefinger's family place and fell asleep, only to dream about Sandor hopping into bed with her? Ehee!

[firerose]

Varys probably knew. Almost nothing seemed to escape his attention, except some of LF's plots...and he usually knew LF was plotting -something-, just not exactly what it might be. I'm sure he noticed Sandor looking at Sansa, or Sansa's reaction to him at certain times, even if it was only a glance, or a slight relaxing of her muscles (she always seemed to relax a little when he was around) etc etc. Why didn't he say anything? Well, Varys knows a lot... but what he lets others know he picks and chooses. That guy has more secrets than anyone can guess, I bet.

Varys actually does not spy by his own, he just gather information from his little birds (or little rats, like LF calls them). so he scarcely saw looks they exchanged, etc. But I think it's very probably him to know about their encounters (maybe, not all, but about some of them for sure)

[Trackrunner]

But I think it's very probably him to know about their encounters (maybe, not all, but about some of them for sure)

But would he have been able to deduce anything from these encounters? I imagine most of the Sansa/Sandor interaction wouldn't seem all that important from an outside perspective--likely just chance meetings where they discussed nothing of consequence. The only encounter that would probably set off warning bells would be the one in her room during the Blackwater Battle, and I'm not entirely sure Varys's spies would have been around.

On a related note, could Sandor have known about Dontos's plans? He knew Sansa was going out to the godswood; did he never think to follow her?

[PhoenixFlame]

On a related note, could Sandor have known about Dontos's plans? He knew Sansa was going out to the godswood; did he never think to follow her?

Haha, I have the mental image of one of Cersei's spies creeping up, spying on Sansa and Dontos. Suddenly out of the darkness, CRUNCH! Sandor pulls out his sword and continues watching Sansa, deep down wishing he was the one proposing they leave together.

[Stratonice]

I really doubt that LF would know anything about the cloak. After all, it was important to his plans (and keeping Sansa's wherabouts secret) that he was believed to be in the Vale. Why would he jeopardize (sp?) that so he could go through her clothing just in case she hid something of interest in there?

It's far more likely that Varys found it and is keeping the information to himself in case it becomes useful later on.

[firerose]

But would he have been able to deduce anything from these encounters? I imagine most of the Sansa/Sandor interaction wouldn't seem all that important from an outside perspective--likely just chance meetings where they discussed nothing of consequence. The only encounter that would probably set off warning bells would be the one in her room during the Blackwater Battle, and I'm not entirely sure Varys's spies would have been around.

On a related note, could Sandor have known about Dontos's plans? He knew Sansa was going out to the godswood; did he never think to follow her?

Varys's spies completely COULD be around. remember how they get the information: there are a lot of small secret passages and corridors in the castle, and when Tyrion was going to his father's appartments by one of these passages he mentioned that it was too small for an usual people, and maybe, Varys's "little birds" use it. and else, it seems that Varys gives relatively a few information regarding how much of it he should get. his aims are still vague and mostly unknown, and he can have his own plans about Sansa, and own reasons to keep their relations in secret.

and as for the white cloak, I wonder if LF could know about it. when on the next morning after the Blackwater Battle Dontos comes to Sansa"s room he finds her sleeping on the floor wrapping into the Sandor's white cloak. and he is a man of LF. if he paid his attention on this and told to Lf, it's interesting what he could think about this. On one hand, a clear evidence of affairs they could have, and on another, "sweet little Sansa" who smells good and likes songs, silks beautiful knights and so other and a burnt, ugly-scarred with SUCH reputation together?!

[Trackrunner]

Varys's spies completely COULD be around. remember how they get the information: there are a lot of small secret passages and corridors in the castle

Oh, I certainly agree that they could have witnessed it. But everything seemed a tad hectic during the battle, and I'm not sure the little birds would have cared all that much about spying on a twelve-year-old girl in her room. But perhaps Varys has them trained well enough to go about their jobs no matter what's happening. I think it could go either way.

his aims are still vague and mostly unknown, and he can have his own plans about Sansa, and own reasons to keep their relations in secret.

If, as has been theorized, Varys actually planned the mob incident to spirit away Tyrek Lannister and Sansa, could the guy with the garlicky breath who tried to pull Sansa from her horse actually have been one of Varys's men? *ponders*

Back on to the subject of the white cloak, I'm rather of the opinion GRRM forgot about it, or didn't give it too much thought other than to show that the Hound was in Sansa's thoughts. As much as I'd like for it to come up again, I think it's a dead end.

[The Black Mamba of Dorne]

George R.R Martin is fooling us all!

He's showing us one thing, getting us to believe that there is a romantic link between Sandor and Sansa, but he's going to come out with the ultimate twist when Arya returns all grown up.

Sandor will fall in love with Arya because of her "wild" ways, and end up jilting Sansa.

Sansa 's gonna be heartbroke return to winterfell, where she contemplates on suicide.

There she remeets Jon who she learns is her cousin and not her bro.

Falls in love with Jon, becomes his second wife (Dany is his first, and being half dragon he's got no problem with polygamy).(or incest)

Sansa becomes the 3rd dragon rider everyone happy.

The End.

[Falkner]

George R.R Martin is fooling us all!

He's showing us one thing, getting us to believe that there is a romantic link between Sandor and Sansa, but he's going to come out with the ultimate twist when Arya returns all grown up.

Sandor will fall in love with Arya because of her "wild" ways, and end up jilting Sansa.

Sansa 's gonna be heartbroke return to winterfell, where she contemplates on suicide.

There she remeets Jon who she learns is her cousin and not her bro.

Falls in love with Jon, becomes his second wife (Dany is his first, and being half dragon he's got no problem with polygamy).(or incest)

Sansa becomes the 3rd dragon rider everyone happy.

The End.

And, gods be thanked, this will never happen.

[firerose]

If, as has been theorized, Varys actually planned the mob incident to spirit away Tyrek Lannister and Sansa, could the guy with the garlicky breath who tried to pull Sansa from her horse actually have been one of Varys's men? *ponders*

Back on to the subject of the white cloak, I'm rather of the opinion GRRM forgot about it, or didn't give it too much thought other than to show that the Hound was in Sansa's thoughts. As much as I'd like for it to come up again, I think it's a dead end.

[Stratonice]

and back to the subject of the white cloak :/, maybe, GRRM really forgot about it, but as I understand, the matter of this thread is of relations between Sansa and Sandor, and how it will influence on her future. as for me, their relations are very important. A small detail: LF tried to destroy or alienate alls who could sympathize Sansa to be the only whom she could rely on, and to subordinate her so. the only whom he missed was the Hound. I think it's the reason their relations to develop

Good point! That kind of hints towards him not knowing about their (for lack of a better word) relationship, doesn't it?

[Trackrunner]

And, gods be thanked, this will never happen.

I was wondering if I should respond to that post or not, but thankfully, you took the words right out of my mouth.

why did Varys planned to spirit her away? Sansa is the key to the west,

And maybe Varys didn't want the Lannisters to have such a key. His loyalties have yet to be proven. If he's on Dany's side, it would be quite nice to have the North ready and willing to back her up. And Sansa = North.

but as I understand, the matter of this thread is of relations between Sansa and Sandor, and how it will influence on her future. as for me, their relations are very important.

Yes, their relationship is very important to me too. It's what made me fall in love with the series (not that I wasn't enjoying the books before SanSan developed, because I was, immensely).

A small detail: LF tried to destroy or alienate alls who could sympathize Sansa to be the only whom she could rely on, and to subordinate her so.

Not that I'm disagreeing with you, because I do believe he's making sure she relies on him completely, but what Sansa-sympathizers has he destroyed? Dontos? He was ditching Sansa anyway. Lysa? Total nutjob who tried to kill her own niece. Sansa's mother and brothers are all supposedly dead. The only people I can recall LF alienating from Sansa were the Tyrells....

the only whom he missed was the Hound. I think it's the reason their relations to develop

I certainly like to hope so. It all depends on how and where Sansa/Sandor meet up again. If he did follow Brienne and co. towards the Vale, well... *crosses fingers*

[firerose]

And maybe Varys didn't want the Lannisters to have such a key. His loyalties have yet to be proven. If he's on Dany's side, it would be quite nice to have the North ready and willing to back her up. And Sansa = North.

Varys doesn't have a habit to deny Lannisters their key figures just killing them. He simply send them all to Dany

Yes, their relationship is very important to me too. It's what made me fall in love with the series (not that I wasn't enjoying the books before SanSan developed, because I was, immensely).

Not that I'm disagreeing with you, because I do believe he's making sure she relies on him completely, but what Sansa-sympathizers has he destroyed? Dontos? He was ditching Sansa anyway. Lysa? Total nutjob who tried to kill her own niece. Sansa's mother and brothers are all supposedly dead. The only people I can recall LF alienating from Sansa were the Tyrells....

I certainly like to hope so. It all depends on how and where Sansa/Sandor meet up again. If he did follow Brienne and co. towards the Vale, well... *crosses fingers*

let's see. If Lf did not put a crimp in Tyrells schemes, Sansa would be already married with a heir of one of the most powerful Houses whom was also told like a good and kind-hearted person. LF gives a very odd explaination to his actions: "You'd be bored to death if you'd married him" everything that Sansa was dreaming at that time was to marry a good man and to create a family with him in a such safe and beautiful place, like Highgarden was.

as for Dontos, he was of course Lf"s man, and did everything just for money, but he sincerely fell grateful to Sansa that she considered him a true knight and entrust him her saviour and life.

Lysa Arren was not too sympathetic to her, but anyway she felt some oblidged to her like her relative, and she was going to marry her to her son, i.e. she gave her some protection.

and furthermore, LF also try to turn her from relying on these persons, but also to turn her against them:

with Willas she'd be bored to death, he says;

Dontos is just a hard drunker and did everything for money and would certainly betray her in future;

Tyrion gave his wife to his people when she bored him, and so on.

as for Lysa, he openly provoked her for killing.

what do you think?

[Trackrunner]

as for Dontos, he was of course Lf"s man, and did everything just for money, but he sincerely fell grateful to Sansa that she considered him a true knight and entrust him her saviour and life.

Lysa Arren was not too sympathetic to her, but anyway she felt some oblidged to her like her relative, and she was going to marry her to her son, i.e. she gave her some protection.

I completely agree about the Tyrells. Littlefinger alienated them for the sole purpose of keeping Sansa in King's Landing and making sure his plans to steal Sansa for himself did not go awry. But while Dontos may have been grateful to her, he still would have been out of the picture once they separated. I think Petyr ordering his death was less about getting him away from Sansa (since he would have been away from her anyway) and more about tying up loose ends. I wouldn't have trusted Dontos to keep quiet either. And Lysa didn't seem to think much of Sansa's betrothal to Robert as she was pushing Sansa out the Moon Door. Again, I think this was less about ridding Sansa of a friend, and more about keeping things according to plan. Lysa was crazy, unpredictable, and thus a threat to anything Littlefinger was plotting.

But I do think LF wants Sansa to rely on him completely. Myranda had perhaps best watch herself. And if Sandor ever shows up, I think things could get veeeery interesting. Littlefinger and Sandor have such different ways of achieving their ends. I'd like to know whose methods work best.

[Heretic]

Im quite mystified that noone brought up the very strong symbolism of a westerosi man garbing a woman in a cloak in this thread. Its not my observation originally, read it in another thread. But in westerosi marrige cermony, the man puts a cloak on the woman. And Sandor did this to sansa twice.

Ceder chest observation is nice but ceder chest might just mean "posh chest" after all. The cloakings are less ambigious.

[Uzumaki_Kiba]

Heretic, I've only been here a few days, but already you annoy me to no end. "Hiding a certain spoilerthread because of the moronic bumping of said thread" is probably the most obnoxious thing I've ever been subjected to reading as many fucking times as I have.

Now go back and read.... Hm, the first post in this thread, actually. If you even knew what you were posting in, you'd see that the cloak thing has already been mentioned, by the person who started this. God, you're bothersome.

Anyway, Sandor rules, and I have a bit of a fiction-crush on Sansa these days (or will, when she comes of age) so I'm entirely hoping they end up together. Happily ever after. Though as someone pointed out, Arya and Sandor isn't entirely out of the question. I just like SanSan more. Fella deserves her.

[Ser Chanch The SolemnSword]

AHahaha, just a tad hypocritical there aye bud.

i think this cedar chest idea's got alot of credibility to it, GrrM knows of the cedar signifigance n there 'history' (he's mentioned it in one of his other stories n even cited some of the afore mentioned 'effects' of these 'hope chests') i think sansa's "the maid" and her keeping his cloak there n prayer is indeed wat kept The Hound alive, but im not so sure about a romantic SanSan development, seems too 'fairy taleish' for Grrm too me

[Uzumaki_Kiba]

Calling me hypocritical for posting something not really on the original topic of the thread and yelling at somebody else for something similar in the same post? Touche.

Anyway, the thread seemed to have mostly devolved (by this, the eighth page) into folks speculating (and hoping) that Sansa and Sandor will end up together. So I tossed in my two cents.

As to the actual cedar chest bit, all of what was originally posted (I just figured since that had already been covered by eight pages, I was kinda too late for it to be worth anything) seemed to apply perfectly to Sandor, and I like the idea of it being a little extra romantic. It was a detail that seemed to stand out, and according to the post above mine, GRRM is well aware of the significance. Doesn't seem like a coincidence, to me. Great catch, to the originator of this thread.