Tourmaline Dragon Posted May 17, 2007 Share Posted May 17, 2007 Love this board and the books! I prefer to just read the board and learn but I thought this was worth posting since I haven’t read anything on this topic. If you are utterly hopelessly romantic Sandor/Sansa shipper (like me) I hope you’ll find this post rather interesting! I noticed that Sansa kept Sandor’s stained white Kingsguard cloak hidden in a cedar chest beneath her summer silks (I think that the chest went to the vale with her too?) It got me to wondering if GRRM described the chest being made of cedar wood for a reason. I know that other chests have been described as cedar but I thought it was an interesting notion…so I trawled the internet to see what the Cedar tree symbolises. While I don’t certainly don’t expect (or want) Sandor’s ferocity and emo to damper too much I wonder if the presence of the cloak in Sansa’s chest may be a reflection of the period of time that he is spending on the Isle itself... she did sincerely pray for him in the sept after all, that the rage inside him would be somewhat gentled. Anyways here is what I found: The cedar is the tree of mystics, often associated with the sephiroth tree of Kabbalah, or the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden. Cedar symbolizes cleansing/Cedar: Cleanses negative atmospheres. To many cultures it is the “tree of lifeâ€â€¦this is interesting because Sandor may be going through kind sort of physical/mental cleansing on the Quiet Isle…he is at least at least, for the moment, at rest there, as Elder Brother says. Cedar symbolises - grandeur, might, majesty, dignity, worldly strength, power and glory. Cedars are mentioned 70 times in the Bible and are called "trees of the Lord." Cedar (of Lebanon) is also identified with the concepts of beauty and majesty…and we all know Sansa loves beauty and majesty! Trees used by the Druids in their cosmology and/or alphabet include the Cedar – it represented protection from harm and evil forces…hmm interesting… The green cedar (Arz in Arabic) (Species: Cedrus libani or Lebanon Cedar) symbolizes immortality and steadiness. In Hebrew literature the Cedar symbolizes strength. "If the Cedars catcheth thy flame, what will say thy moss...?"( tractate MoEd KaTan 25 ). Japanese cedar symbolizes the concept of rebirth after a period of dormancy that is central to Japan’s native Shinto beliefs…Eureka!...well Sandor is living in a period of dormancy on the Quite Isle.. Cedar reduces turmoil by physically cleansing and bringing a fresh breath of air to anyone resisting a necessary change. It clarifies messages from the higher self and the universe and promotes a peaceful flow…now if anyone needs his turmoil reducing its Sandor. I found this one the most interesting!! - Historically, cedar chests were sold as romantic wedding gifts and as "hope chests" for young women to keep special items in anticipation of their marriage. Somebody on the board has said that Sandor already gave Sansa his cloak which she accepted (twice), which is what they exchange instead of wedding rings in Westeros. It’s telling that the second bloody cloak is safely now ensconced in her cedar wood chest…underneath soft silk. I think that this could be a strong hint that Sansa and Sandor are indeed practically married and that she will remain a maiden for him and no one else, the song that he will have from her is actually her maidenhood …but they don’t know it yet. Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince of the North Posted May 17, 2007 Share Posted May 17, 2007 I think you have made a great observation here! I don't really have much to add but I just think your post has the ring of truth to it P.S. Shouldn't your board name be "Ladyhawke" with that avatar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_BlauerDragon Posted May 17, 2007 Share Posted May 17, 2007 I'm not a Sansan shipper... but I'd have to agree that you might have struck oil with that one. I certainly hope not, but it seems to be a solid enough theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sijjvra Visz Posted May 17, 2007 Share Posted May 17, 2007 Being a huge fan of Sandor and hoping that he meets up once more (at least) with Sansa, the Cedar thing - may- be a very subtle symbol that GRRM is using. Or it might just be a cedar chest...still, I -do- find it a little odd he actually went so far as to mention what kind of wood the chest was made out of. Usually, we just would hear 'she kept his cloak in the chest near her bed' or whatever. So hm. Maybe... I wouldn't put it out of the realm of possibility, but we'll have to wait and see for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mykael Clegane Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 with the previous two posts. Those are some good observations Tourmaline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkess Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 Interesting observation. I'm not really in the SanSan camp, but if it does come to happen, I think this would be one of the small clues that make it alright instead of "Where did that come from?!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redcandle17 Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 Greetings Tourmaline Dragon! Wow, you put a lot of thought into this topic. I hadn't thought pass "OMG she kept his Kingsguard cloak the way I kept the piece of paper with the phone number of the first guy to ask me out!" Your findings on the significance attributed to cedar fits well with Sansa's prayer for Sandor before the Blackwater battle: "Save him if you can and gentle the rage inside him." I have wondered about something else related to this cloak. After she flees King's Landing, wouldn't her room have been searched? Didn't anyone think it odd that she had a fire-singed and blood-stained white cloak hidden away? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Stark Fan Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 I'm not a Sansan shipper... but I'd have to agree that you might have struck oil with that one. I certainly hope not, but it seems to be a solid enough theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_BlauerDragon Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 Greetings Tourmaline Dragon! Wow, you put a lot of thought into this topic. I hadn't thought pass "OMG she kept his Kingsguard cloak the way I kept the piece of paper with the phone number of the first guy to ask me out!" Your findings on the significance attributed to cedar fits well with Sansa's prayer for Sandor before the Blackwater battle: "Save him if you can and gentle the rage inside him." I have wondered about something else related to this cloak. After she flees King's Landing, wouldn't her room have been searched? Didn't anyone think it odd that she had a fire-singed and blood-stained white cloak hidden away? I doubt anyone would have thought it too terribly odd. They might have thought she had found it and planned to use it as a disguise in her escape or something...or they may have taken it as proof that she fled with the Hound and he was in on it with her... Oh, and as for the piece of paper, my number has changed... :-P Actually, I cannot fault that sort of sentimentalism... I still have a sterling silver ring with a unicorn's head on it that I commissioned from a jeweler (and paid for with my own saved cash from allowances and birthdays and such) when I was in the 3rd grade... I offered it to the girl who was my first crush in an attempt to win her affection (because I knew she liked unicorns) and she threw it back in my face... but I kept it, and I may have forgotten her name and what she looked like... but I never forgot about that day or that ring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redcandle17 Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 I doubt anyone would have thought it too terribly odd. They might have thought she had found it and planned to use it as a disguise in her escape or something...or they may have taken it as proof that she fled with the Hound and he was in on it with her... That's why I find it odd. I expected Cersei to add Sandor to the list of people (Tyrion, all the Tyrells, Sansa, her uncle Kevan) who she believes are out to get her and all plotted Joff's murder together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lann Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 doesn't cedar keep away moths? that seems like a good enough reason to make a chest out of it. i do like the idea of LF finding the cloak... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redcandle17 Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 i do like the idea of LF finding the cloak... She didn't take it with her. She didn't take anything but the clothes on her back. Unless you mean that Littlefinger might have secretly gone through her clothes in the Red Keep? Probably looking for her smallclothes to steal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_BlauerDragon Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 That's why I find it odd. I expected Cersei to add Sandor to the list of people (Tyrion, all the Tyrells, Sansa, her uncle Kevan) who she believes are out to get her and all plotted Joff's murder together. Sandor ran off at the battle, long before Joff's death... Cersei might have thought nothing more of it than Sandor threw it off as he was fleeing and Sansa found it and kept it for who only knows what reason. I don't think that even Cersei would have suspected the Hound of being in on any part of anything... they all treated him like his namesake and seemed to think of him as nothing more than an animal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_BlauerDragon Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 Probably looking for her smallclothes to steal. Why would LF go through the trouble of stealing her small-clothes when he's planning to be peeling them directly off of her soon enough? He's a patient Pedo... He'll be able to bide his time for quite a while... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siyrean Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 see i too found it odd that the cloak is never brought up again. i thought for sure they would find it when they searched tyrions rooms. perhaps someone searched the rooms first and grabbed it? i dont' know but it does seem fishy and i wouldn't like to think of grrm as a writer that would forget it was ever there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lann Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 She didn't take it with her. She didn't take anything but the clothes on her back. Unless you mean that Littlefinger might have secretly gone through her clothes in the Red Keep? Probably looking for her smallclothes to steal. no, i forgot she didn't take anything with her. i was thinking LF might have had a trunk shipped off, but of course that would be super suspicious and she doesn't have any of her own stuff. so yeah, forget my last post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Cat Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 see i too found it odd that the cloak is never brought up again. i thought for sure they would find it when they searched tyrions rooms. perhaps someone searched the rooms first and grabbed it? i dont' know but it does seem fishy and i wouldn't like to think of grrm as a writer that would forget it was ever there. Yes it is massively odd. I don't think it was Littlefinger or that he, or one of his minions, went through their rooms before the wedding and found it. The only there might be that I can think of for him to do such a thing is if he wanted to bring some of her stuff for her, but he doesn't because he wants her to forget her past and be totally dependent on him. Sansa isn't carrying it with her when she leaves so it was left behind in their room which was searched almost certainly very thoroughly. And Varys specifically testifies at Tyrion's trial about him plotting to separate Joffrey from the Hound's protection. It would have been the perfect time to pull it out as some sort of further evidence. With that they could have even postulated that what happened on the Blackwater was a further part of the plot to get Sandor out of town and leave Joffrey more vulnerable. But that doesn't happen and I really can't think of any reason why not or that any character there would have a reason to cover it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack-be-lucky Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 . I found this one the most interesting!! - Historically, cedar chests were sold as romantic wedding gifts and as "hope chests" for young women to keep special items in anticipation of their marriage. Somebody on the board has said that Sandor already gave Sansa his cloak which she accepted (twice), which is what they exchange instead of wedding rings in Westeros. It’s telling that the second bloody cloak is safely now ensconced in her cedar wood chest…underneath soft silk. I think that this could be a strong hint that Sansa and Sandor are indeed practically married and that she will remain a maiden for him and no one else, the song that he will have from her is actually her maidenhood …but they don’t know it yet. Any thoughts? As if I didn't feel bad enough, you now tell me that the Cedar Hope chests all the girls kept in my youth(and I guess in GrrM's youth) are now historical artifacts fit to be excavated by todays archeologist and then placed in museums for youth's today to make cynical jokes of. (sigh) And just yesterday Blaur Dragon mentioned "snorting" to me which the doctors and the law took away a long time ago.(double sigh) But seriously, its an interesting post, and now I've learned that the cedar deck attached to my house isn't just an ecological disaster, but is actually a holy shrine. I feel better already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_BlauerDragon Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 As if I didn't feel bad enough, you now tell me that the Cedar Hope chests all the girls kept in my youth(and I guess in GrrM's youth) are now historical artifacts fit to be excavated by todays archeologist and then placed in museums for youth's today to make cynical jokes of. (sigh) And just yesterday Blaur Dragon mentioned "snorting" to me which the doctors and the law took away a long time ago.(double sigh) But seriously, its an interesting post, and now I've learned that the cedar deck attached to my house isn't just an ecological disaster, but is actually a holy shrine. I feel better already. I actually had not realized that they'd outlawed snorting Red Wine... but it's a damned good thing they did... your testimony indicates that it's much more damaging than smoking (and they're a red, curly cunt hair away from beheading people for that)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redcandle17 Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 Sandor ran off at the battle, long before Joff's death... Cersei might have thought nothing more of it than Sandor threw it off as he was fleeing and Sansa found it and kept it for who only knows what reason. I don't think that even Cersei would have suspected the Hound of being in on any part of anything... they all treated him like his namesake and seemed to think of him as nothing more than an animal. It's not that long a time when you consider how long Sandor was Joff's bodyguard. It repeatedly says Sandy was Joff's guard dog for "many years" instead of giving a specific number of years. For Sandor to disappear a mere few months before the murder after years of faithful service should be seen as suspicious to someone as paranoid as Cersei. But then she also trusts Littlefnger still and mistrusts her own uncle so I guess she's not even rational in her paranoia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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