Tourmaline Dragon Posted October 12, 2007 Author Share Posted October 12, 2007 Sansa thinks of Tyrion, but, which quite amazed me, also of Sandor! I think that is very important. It implicates she thinks (or even has been thinking of) what it would be like to make love to Sandor. Well…don’t forget her dreams do specifically include a wedding night dream of a man whose eyes are devouring her when she’s undressing, whose face scarred “only on one side†climbing into bed with her while at the same time (as mentioned by sholtzma) rasping away to her “I’ll have a song from youâ€. There is only one guy in the series that rasps/has a scarred face on one side/ demands songs off of little bird, Sansa has definitely connected sex to Sandor. If that isn’t foreshadowing of SanSan getting together one day then I don’t know what is!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Ser Posted October 12, 2007 Share Posted October 12, 2007 And, let's not forget that when she work up the next morning after having that dream, the dog was sleeping on the bed next to her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sholtzma Posted October 13, 2007 Share Posted October 13, 2007 I have a very crackpot theory on this. My crackpot theory is that the 'crofter's daughter' Tysha was actually Sandor's sister, who had disguised herself in order to flee Gregor. Other than a brief reference to the Cleganes having a sister who died mysteriously, there's no absolutely no evidence for this whatsoever. But it would tie up some loose ends! Another thing to add: when Sansa did sing a song, she chose one that Sandor did not expect/demand to hear. His reaction was that he backed off. Tyrion said that Tysha sang songs to him, so did Sansa happen to sing a song that Sandor had heard his sister sing, and then think to himself "WHAT THE HELL AM I DOING HERE WITH A KNIFE TO SANSA'S THROAT" thought. Gods, if he ever knew that Sansa turned that episode into an imaginary kiss, he'd laugh and then cry at the missed opportunity. Hence Sad old Hound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c_nguyen9 Posted October 13, 2007 Share Posted October 13, 2007 I have a very crackpot theory on this. My crackpot theory is that the 'crofter's daughter' Tysha was actually Sandor's sister, who had disguised herself in order to flee Gregor. Other than a brief reference to the Cleganes having a sister who died mysteriously, there's no absolutely no evidence for this whatsoever. But it would tie up some loose ends! This theory would also explain why Tysha could fall in love with and marry a disfigured dwarf. She would be accustomed to exterior scars and disfigurements as her brother, whom she was undoubtebly very close to, was extremely disfigured at a very young age. Tysha, would have undoubtedly learned to put more stock in who Tyrion really was, an intelligent noble young man, than the fact that he was an ugly dwarf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwywen Posted October 13, 2007 Share Posted October 13, 2007 Well…don’t forget her dreams do specifically include a wedding night dream of a man whose eyes are devouring her when she’s undressing, whose face scarred “only on one side†climbing into bed with her while at the same time (as mentioned by sholtzma) rasping away to her “I’ll have a song from youâ€. There is only one guy in the series that rasps/has a scarred face on one side/ demands songs off of little bird, Sansa has definitely connected sex to Sandor. If that isn’t foreshadowing of SanSan getting together one day then I don’t know what is!! I don't recall this dream at all! I'll have to reread that chapter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tourmaline Dragon Posted October 13, 2007 Author Share Posted October 13, 2007 Also, before the dream, when she is standing outside in the rain, while Littlefinger and Lysa are in bed, Sansa thinks of Tyrion and their wedding night but her thoughts quickly turn to the Hound. She recalls his words to her the night she bumped into him on the serpentine steps, which is a turning point for him and her in that it is clear from his drunken remarks that he started to regard her as a woman and I guess in a more sexual way. Gods, if he ever knew that Sansa turned that episode into an imaginary kiss, he'd laugh and then cry at the missed opportunity. Hence Sad old Hound. Yeah I forgot about the dog sleeping next to her! That was a nice touch on GRRM’s part. If Sandor had any idea about her imaginary kiss scenario and dream he’d be astonished. He always seemed to be obsessed with the fact that pretty Sansa couldn’t bear to look at him in the face, he could never imagine she’d think about him that way. I guess he’s mistakenly whiling the hours on the Quiet Isle thinking woe is me :cry: , the attraction is all one sided! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trackrunner Posted October 13, 2007 Share Posted October 13, 2007 While we're crackpotting, I have a theory that Sansa didn't actually touch Sandor's face the night he was in her room. The exact words are, "Some instinct made her lift her hand and cup his cheek with her fingers." Well, Sandor has other cheeks, you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Cat Posted October 13, 2007 Share Posted October 13, 2007 Wow, great crackpot indeed! Does Tyrion describe Tysha's looks anywhere? Slender, long dark hair and blue eyes you could drown in. Doesn't really scream Clegane, but doesn't really scream not either. After that description there was a separate crackpot theory that she was one of the missing Baratheon bastards, but it seems Robert would have been too young to have pulled that off. Its implied Gregor killed both the sister and father. Sandor did leave right after his fathers death never to return. Tysha did tell Tyrion that she was orphaned when her father died of fever. So it's possible they were both running, but then it doesn't really make sense in that case that they weren't running together or that he would still go to the Lannisters after such a thing happened so I'm inclined to think the Clegane sister was killed at their keep some time before the fathers death and that she is not Tysha. Still Sandor doesn't seem to like seeing girls hurt, possibly because of his sister, and with Sansa, Arya, and even Jeyne does seem to do little not overly obvious things to help them when he can. What happened to Tysha could be the past event that caused him to consider killing Tyrion, but I'm not sure that it is. However, I am sure Sandor does know about it whether he was there or not. That kind of event would be gossip all through the Lannister retainers for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Cat Posted October 13, 2007 Share Posted October 13, 2007 While we're crackpotting, I have a theory that Sansa didn't actually touch Sandor's face the night he was in her room. The exact words are, "Some instinct made her lift her hand and cup his cheek with her fingers." Well, Sandor has other cheeks, you know. While there is a certain appeal to that, she did also feel 'the stickiness of the blood, and a wetness that was not blood' and there are certain places you really just don't want to be feeling that. Besides, if she had grabbed his ass she probably would have gotten a very different response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westrosi Posted October 13, 2007 Share Posted October 13, 2007 Still Sandor doesn't seem to like seeing girls hurt, possibly because of his sister, and with Sansa, Arya, and even Jeyne does seem to do little not overly obvious things to help them when he can. insightful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westrosi Posted October 13, 2007 Share Posted October 13, 2007 …..perhaps even Elder Brother may have realised that Sandor has strong feelings for her. He does strike me as particularly observant... I'm sure he knows all about Sansa and can easily guess Sandor's feelings... I think that was part of the "confession" he gave to the Elder Brother in the woods, when he broke down, so close to death, and shucked off his hound persona and all the pain and self-doubt that went with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valar readmartin Posted October 13, 2007 Share Posted October 13, 2007 While we're stretching the San/San symbolism to the breaking point, I thought I'd add one I haven't seen mentioned. The night after she bumps into Sandor on the serpentine she has nightmares. The nightmares are brought on by pain from the beginning of her period, and the image in her dream is of a knife slashing her belly to bloody "ribbons." Fast forward to Sandor's speech to the BWB about knights being swords, and all the vows and chivalry being the ribbons tied around the sword.... Maybe someday she'll get to tie some ribbons around his sword. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sholtzma Posted October 14, 2007 Share Posted October 14, 2007 While there is a certain appeal to that, she did also feel 'the stickiness of the blood, and a wetness that was not blood' and there are certain places you really just don't want to be feeling that. Besides, if she had grabbed his ass she probably would have gotten a very different response. Well, now y'all have done it. I will never be able to think about that scene again without thinking this and laughing. That magical moment is now tainted in my mind... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwywen Posted October 14, 2007 Share Posted October 14, 2007 LOL I'm glad translation in Dutch is a little different so I can't make the connection so easily. Done some rereading btw and I found this in ACOK: The first time Sansa meets Dontos in the Godswood, she wishes Lady was with her. She could smell if someone was telling a lie. At the end of the chapter, Sandor repeats that exact quote, but of course he's talking about dogs. I think that is one of the many hints Sandor will eventually replace Lady. __ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Rose Posted October 14, 2007 Share Posted October 14, 2007 I haven't been to this forum in years, but I was thinking about Sansa and Sandor the other day and I just happened to log in to see if I could find any other shippers (I doubted I would) and lo and behold there was this topic at the top! XD I love all of ASOIAF, but I have to admit that the SanSan interactions are my favorite parts of the series. This whole thread was a very wonderful read and I had one symbolism that I found that I wanted to add. Sansa wraps herself in Sandor's bloody white cloak. Blood on white fabric is very symbolic of losing your virginity. XD I started reading the series again last night for the first time in a couple of years. I can't wait to pick up on all the little things I might have missed before. XD ~Blue Rose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tourmaline Dragon Posted October 14, 2007 Author Share Posted October 14, 2007 He does strike me as particularly observant... I'm sure he knows all about Sansa and can easily guess Sandor's feelings... I think that was part of the "confession" he gave to the Elder Brother in the woods, when he broke down, so close to death, and shucked off his hound persona and all the pain and self-doubt that went with it. Yes, it may well have even been a big part of his confession. His true self i.e. Sandor rather than the Hound, may well have confessed all of his feelings for Sansa to Elder Brother who, judging with his talk with Brienne, is very astute person. Also, if you think about it Elder Brother is probably the closest thing to a friend (and mentor) for Sandor since…well, maybe his sister and Sansa I suppose. It must be blindingly obvious to him that Sandor is totally enamoured with Sansa, but I wonder if Elder Brother will bother to point that out to emotionally mangled Sandor. What he is feeling may be so alien as to be unrecognisable; he always struck me as in total denial about his feelings until the Black water bedroom scene. At least on the Quite Isle rehab he’ll remain sober (and celibate! ) for the first time in years and years. He’s been an emotionally crippled alcoholic for a looooong time. I love all of ASOIAF, but I have to admit that the SanSan interactions are my favorite parts of the series. Me too! I am certainly a confessed SanSan shipper; It’s my favourite bit too. I’d just love for them to get together. OK, I admit I’d even love for them to ride off into the sunset together too but I know that’s certainly not going to happen! They are such an interesting pair, the most fascinating romance I’ve ever read…..and when I first picked up AGOT I certainly never expected to find a unique romance in it! I never thought about the blood on the white cloak being symbolic of virginity but it makes perfect sense…ahhhhh yet more symbolism for SanSan. Maybe someday she'll get to tie some ribbons around his sword. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westrosi Posted October 14, 2007 Share Posted October 14, 2007 LOL I'm glad translation in Dutch is a little different so I can't make the connection so easily. Done some rereading btw and I found this in ACOK: The first time Sansa meets Dontos in the Godswood, she wishes Lady was with her. She could smell if someone was telling a lie. At the end of the chapter, Sandor repeats that exact quote, but of course he's talking about dogs. I think that is one of the many hints Sandor will eventually replace Lady. __ Was so interested in this reference that I looked it up. In the godswood, "Sansa found herself thinking of Lady again. She could smell out falsehood, she could, but she was dead." And later that chapter, "A hound would die for you but never lie to you. And he'll look you in the face. ... A dog can smell a lie, you know." I think you made an amazing connection, and I love the idea that Sandor/dog has replaced Lady/wolf. Edit: This chapter also includes one of my favorite Sandor descrpitions: Sandor was "swaying slightly, stripes of light and darkness falling across his terrible burned face." ok, it's pretty obvious symbolism, light and darkness, good and evil, but I loved it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sholtzma Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 Was so interested in this reference that I looked it up. In the godswood, "Sansa found herself thinking of Lady again. She could smell out falsehood, she could, but she was dead." And later that chapter, "A hound would die for you but never lie to you. And he'll look you in the face. ... A dog can smell a lie, you know." I think you made an amazing connection, and I love the idea that Sandor/dog has replaced Lady/wolf. Edit: This chapter also includes one of my favorite Sandor descrpitions: Sandor was "swaying slightly, stripes of light and darkness falling across his terrible burned face." ok, it's pretty obvious symbolism, light and darkness, good and evil, but I loved it LOL! "Paint stripes on a toad, he does not become a tiger." I am crackpotting here, but I hope that Bran's vision at the beginning of AGOT where he sees two shadows around Sansa and Arya, one dark and terrible and Houndish, the other armored in gold and beautiful are both Sandor. These two shadows are both, after all, underneath the huge armored shadow that could be Ser Gregor/Gregolem. I thought of this recently when going over the Brienne Quiet Isle chapter - lots of references to golden things, wonderful and unusual things coming to Quiet Isle, and the brothers taking things such as driftwood, unrefined, working and polishing things. It would fit in wonderfully with a Florian/Jonquil corollary. Unfortunately, it also would mean that Sandor is almost certain to die - all the songs are tragedies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tourmaline Dragon Posted October 15, 2007 Author Share Posted October 15, 2007 Quiet Isle chapter - lots of references to golden things, wonderful and unusual things coming to Quiet Isle, and the brothers taking things such as driftwood, unrefined, working and polishing things. I really enjoyed the description of the Quite Isle; it came across as so tranquil and gentle after reading all of the other chapters so full of danger, suspicion etc. And not too far from the Vale too!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tansele Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 The first time Sansa meets Dontos in the Godswood, she wishes Lady was with her. She could smell if someone was telling a lie. At the end of the chapter, Sandor repeats that exact quote, but of course he's talking about dogs. Also in that scene, before Dontos appears, Sansa is praying to the old gods to send her a knight. Then Dontos comes and she connects him with this wish and to the Florian and Jonquil song as well, she sees him as her Florian. But Dontos was never her knight, he did what he did for money only. On the way back to the castle, however, Sansa bumps into Sandor on the steps and he takes her back to the tower. And he is also connected to the Florian song - that's the one she promises to sing for him and he demands it on the night of the battle. So did the old gods send her a knight? I like to think they did and that it was Sandor rather than Dontos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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