Mixed Martial Arts - Rashad Evans vs Michael Bisping

[Liffguard]

Randy Couture... trains in nonfatal techniques,

A guillotine choke, rear naked choke, various forms of side choke and various forms of triangle choke are lethal if held to completion. Neck cranks and crucifixes can both cause paralysis and death if held to completion.

someone with no restrictions should be able, if at any point he forgets he's in a life-or-death fight, slip in a shot to the groin, throat, or eyes, that would help him take out Couture.

Not unless he trains those moves against a resisting opponent on a regular basis. Also, Couture would be just as able to use "dirty" tactics. In fact, he'd be better since he already is an expert fighter.

the hosts were talking to the guy who was in charge of teaching hand-to-hand combat to all the marines in Camp Pendleton. This guy made the claim that while Randy Couture could probably best him in the Octagon, he had a better chance of killing Couture in a street fight. So whattaya think? Is the pinnacle of sport fighting good enough to take on an elite commando who is "trained to kill?"

Randy Couture did in fact take on an army combatives instructor on the show Pros versus Joes. It was embarrassing to watch how utterly trounced this guy was. Yes, I'm sure on the d34dly str33tz there are all sorts of eye-gouges and groin kicks and hair-pulling moves that could be used. The point is, this guy was so badly beaten that he didn't even have a position from which to use those moves.

As for the whole "trained to kill" malarkey, it's important to note that the killing by soldiers is done with guns 99.9% of the time and the remaining 0.1% probably done with bladed weapons. MMA fighters professionally train to fight hand-to-hand. More importantly, many of the moves they use are lethal unless released prematurely due to tap-out.

[Ser Barry]

Unless the fella is competent in a form of grappling he will never be able to pull off any of his moves.

[Analu]

Randy Couture did in fact take on an army combatives instructor on the show Pros versus Joes. It was embarrassing to watch how utterly trounced this guy was. Yes, I'm sure on the d34dly str33tz there are all sorts of eye-gouges and groin kicks and hair-pulling moves that could be used. The point is, this guy was so badly beaten that he didn't even have a position from which to use those moves.

I was thinking of this very show when I read the question. That was really embarrassing for the Army guy. I remember thinking that he might put up a pretty tough fight against Randy, being a close combat instructor in the Army and all. Randy submitted him like 8 times in 5 minutes. And Couture's not a submissions guy at all, as everyone here knows. Just goes to show how badass MMA fighters are.

I agree with others that Couture could probably take this "trained to kill elite commando" down, in the Octagon or not.

Gracie Proving Ground is being held here tonight. I was thinking of going, but haven't decided yet. Some pretty decent fights, but mostly local fighters against Gracie guys, so I doubt anyone here will have heard of too many of our fighters.

Is anyone else besides me watching TUF 6? Is it just me or does this season kinda blow? Spent two episodes focusing on Scarola moping and whining about how he couldn't hack it and wanted to leave. I don't know if the formula has just gone stale or I'm just tired of seeing it, but I hope something starts happening soon.

[benderschweiz]

TUF seems to be really scraping the bottom of the barrel as far as having on quality fighters at this point.

Evans vs. Bisping isn't much of a main event...that card could really use Dan Henderson vs. Tito Ortiz.

[Oorag]

I agree with others that Couture could probably take this "trained to kill elite commando" down, in the Octagon or not.

Yeah, that was my reaction as well. I think top-level MMA fighters are just too good and too practiced at their styles to allow a less talented fighter use "dirty" tactics.

[BLU-RAY]

Hmmm. I will bow to your superior MMA knowledge, then.

[Devil Hanzo]

A guillotine choke, rear naked choke, various forms of side choke and various forms of triangle choke are lethal if held to completion. Neck cranks and crucifixes can both cause paralysis and death if held to completion.

Not unless he trains those moves against a resisting opponent on a regular basis. Also, Couture would be just as able to use "dirty" tactics. In fact, he'd be better since he already is an expert fighter.

Randy Couture did in fact take on an army combatives instructor on the show Pros versus Joes. It was embarrassing to watch how utterly trounced this guy was. Yes, I'm sure on the d34dly str33tz there are all sorts of eye-gouges and groin kicks and hair-pulling moves that could be used. The point is, this guy was so badly beaten that he didn't even have a position from which to use those moves.

As for the whole "trained to kill" malarkey, it's important to note that the killing by soldiers is done with guns 99.9% of the time and the remaining 0.1% probably done with bladed weapons. MMA fighters professionally train to fight hand-to-hand. More importantly, many of the moves they use are lethal unless released prematurely due to tap-out.

I agree overall.

But if you watch HUMAN WEAPON

Whats his face, Jason did well in certain aspects with the Krav Maga/U.S. army guys, while doing horribly in others.

There was a drill where they pepper spray the guy and subdue.

It took SIX MARINES to take out jason. Thats bloody impressive.

At the same time, in knife fighting, and in anything with teamwork, he really really sucked.

Seems that MMA is good at what it claims to be good at: Unarmed combat.

If couture met on the street with some of these guys, if they are unarmed, couture would MURDER them.

With weapons? Well, Couture used to be in the army right?

Anyway, training in an alive manner, will take you far. Regardless of what your studying.

But guys, face it. MMA, atleast at the professional level is, is perhaps unparralled in terms of unarmed combat.

Sorry to say that, bruce lee would get killed in the octagon in the light weight devision.

Hell even in the sixties/seventies, there were guys that could kick Bruce lees ass (the gracies, Mas Oyama's students, Mohammed Ali/George foreman, CHuck norris since he competed and had the balls to do it., Muay thai kick boxers from thailand, GENE FUCKING LEBELL!!!!) Cross training existed LOOONG before bruce lee.

Im all for Reality based self defense.

Shit, im a karateka, i do uechi-ryu karate. But my teacher, and i myself am not foolish enough to believe it to be the be end all.

He cross trained, and takes things from other styles.

I cross train in MMA, my karate is full contact, so is the MMA.

Key is train in an ALIVE manner.

And what is the goals of your schools? What does the training lean toward?

An arm bar, when applied quickly snaps someones arm. A guillotine at full force can damage the wind pipe, is deadly. A rear naked choke can kill someone or put them to sleep.

Kimuras, americanas break limbs.

Those are pretty deadly if you ask me.

[Devil Hanzo]

Cro-cop is FINALLY getting his nose fixed, and is not getting a new cage in his basement proportionate to the UFC octagon.

Frankly, what the fuck happened to him?

Have you seen any of his k1 fights? He would throw MAD combinations.

In MMA, he never really did that.

Not that he really needed to most of the time.

But i think now, maybe he needs to bring back that k1 luster.

[Horus Ex Machina]

I am training in MMA and I am a former Marine so I have an understading of both arenas of combat. There is some truth to what the Marine says, for example the very fact that stomps and kicks to the head of an opponent on his knees or on the ground are disallowed in MMA, is something that an MMA fighter would have to get used to. Couture is not a traditional BJJ fighter who will fight off of his back nor does he typically turtle so those particular aspects of weakness would not be there.

However any well trained soldier is not amiss to dealing a blow with any tool they can get their han ds on, and every maneuver that ends up with your opponent on the ground is automatically followed with the heel of a boot to the throat of your opponent.

Also in a true fight for life and death is probably more unpredictable than an MMA fight. Don't forget that eye gouges, fishhooks, small joint manipulation, a k-bar to the achilles tendon, are all fair game. Couture could hold his own given his military training, but anyone else who does not understand all the weak points in a real fight might get killed. For example, just like pulling guard on a guillotine choke on pavement would be a ridiculous move, so would slamming a man on pavement and possibly cracking your own skull in the process. Plus there's no give on concrete, so even if you keep your head to your opponents torso, you could experience neck trauma.

Plus no soldier or Marine is ever completely unarmed, taken as a given, the average MMA fighter would be relatively unskilled in the use of pugil tactics, bayonettes, or k-bars.

[Liffguard]

for example the very fact that stomps and kicks to the head of an opponent on his knees or on the ground are disallowed in MMA

Only in the new Unified Rules. Until very recently they were a staple of PRIDE.

[Devil Hanzo]

I doubt we will see PRIDE rules come back, or atleast be widely used.

THough since Headbutts are allowed in Daido-juku(karate MMA pretty much, SEARCH ON YOUTUBE) im sure they will allow PRIDEish stuff.

I hope so, i liked pride better in that regard.

[benderschweiz]

"Sean Sherk passed a lie detector test saying that he did not knowingly use steroids. While certainly not conclusive, it can't hurt his chances at getting his suspension over turned or at the very least reduced."

per Dave Meltzer

Penn vs. Sherk would make the November card so much better.

"Its not a lie if you believe it."

-George Costanza

[Horus Ex Machina]

"Sean Sherk passed a lie detector test saying that he did not knowingly use steroids. While certainly not conclusive, it can't hurt his chances at getting his suspension over turned or at the very least reduced."

per Dave Meltzer

Penn vs. Sherk would make the November card so much better.

"Its not a lie if you believe it."

-George Costanza

It may get the suspension reduced, but unless he is completely cleared, he will still be stripped of the title. He'll likely get a shot at winning it back after the suspension for the sake of continuity, but this will hurt his career tremendously.

[zelticgar]

On the Couture versus the Marine trainer question - i'd want to know the size differential in the two men. 20lbs would make a huge difference in a fight to the death if you are looking at two highly trained combatants.

My inclination is that a fight to the death would still be a style matchup. Couture closes the gap quickly. The Marine fighter would need to hold world class grappling skills to even hang close to Couture. Granted when Couture closes the gap, he needs to avoid knees to the groin and small joints but i would suspect he would have him on the ground so quickly it would not be a problem.

I've also been watching TUF 6 and it has not been a great show for fighter taent yet. I'm hoping the fights will get better when the semis start. Danzig is a proven fighter and i think Arroya looks pretty solid as well. Typically TUF ends up produding 2 to 3 legit fighters. The NY guy from Serra's camp was a total pussy. I can't believe he walked off the show...

[Ser Barry]

Whether he took steroids or not, Sherk was popping dozens of supplements every morning. No-one knows what effect they have in combination and I would presume taking so many at once would lead to an illegal rise in hormone levels in one way or another. His nandrolone result was only a near fail so I would also presume this was the cause of the failure rather than actually being on an active 'roid cycle at the time. What he does outside competition I have no idea.

[Liffguard]

I'm just going to reiterate that I'm skeptical about the Sherk result. Given his combination of dozens of legal supplements and insane workout routines it's very possible he had a false positive. To put it in perspective, the average normal level is about six and Sherk's was twelve. However, the average illegal level is around one hundred and fifty.

[Horus Ex Machina]

The only way Sherk is going to be vindicated is if they raise the limit which they won't do because they are trying to catch the guys who cycle off to pass drug tests. Who knows, Sherk may have been roiding and thought he'd cycled off in time to beat the test.

Decca and Debol stay in your system for close to a year so atheletes tend to avoid those types of common steroids. You never know.

[Liffguard]

Yeah, fair point. I'm not drawing any conclusions, I just think there's legitimate grounds for scepticsm.

[Intercept]

An MMA fighter is fed millions of dollars to become an lean, mean fighting machine. His entire life, his entire purpose is to be trained to take down another guy in unarmed combat in the ring.

An Army drill sergeant is a guy on shitty government pay who isn't given world class training and equipment.

I think it was quite obvious from the start who would win. I mean if you took an Olympic sprinter and paired him up with the fastest sprinter in the military, again, it is quite obvious who is going to win. Losing to Randy Couture carries no shame with it. I'm sure if the contest was "survive in a firefight", Randy Couture would become a dead sack of finely toned muscle within a few hearbeats. The fight was by no means a fair contest in any way.

And I do think in a real life-or-death fight, Randy Couture would die. I use to take Self-Defense classes and it is really, really scary stuff. #1 rule of street fighting is DO NOT BE THERE WHEN THE FIGHTING STARTS, and it is absolutely true. Before learning anything else, the first thing we learned was how to access a dangerous situation about to happen and GTFO of there any means necessary to completely avoid any violence.

What're you going to do in a street fight if the guy puts his hands up and you let your guard down, and faster than you can blink, a knife comes out his sleeve and your throat is gushing blood? Or how is submitting a guy gonna help you if he has a friend running up behind you with a broken beer bottle or a chair? These are the things self defense classes teach you, and none of it is what you see in MMA. It's about using anything and everything around you and trying to break the other guy's bones as efficiently and quickly as possible. Ultimately you have to create your own way to fight because everyone's body is different, and you can't defend yourself the same way as, say, Bas Rutten would, if you're a slimmer and smaller guy. But you have other options and advantages.

BTW, Bas Rutten is hilarious.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=D3K-mrlYG7Y

[Devil Hanzo]

An MMA fighter is fed millions of dollars to become an lean, mean fighting machine. His entire life, his entire purpose is to be trained to take down another guy in unarmed combat in the ring.

An Army drill sergeant is a guy on shitty government pay who isn't given world class training and equipment.

I think it was quite obvious from the start who would win. I mean if you took an Olympic sprinter and paired him up with the fastest sprinter in the military, again, it is quite obvious who is going to win. Losing to Randy Couture carries no shame with it. I'm sure if the contest was "survive in a firefight", Randy Couture would become a dead sack of finely toned muscle within a few hearbeats. The fight was by no means a fair contest in any way.

And I do think in a real life-or-death fight, Randy Couture would die. I use to take Self-Defense classes and it is really, really scary stuff. #1 rule of street fighting is DO NOT BE THERE WHEN THE FIGHTING STARTS, and it is absolutely true. Before learning anything else, the first thing we learned was how to access a dangerous situation about to happen and GTFO of there any means necessary to completely avoid any violence.

What're you going to do in a street fight if the guy puts his hands up and you let your guard down, and faster than you can blink, a knife comes out his sleeve and your throat is gushing blood? Or how is submitting a guy gonna help you if he has a friend running up behind you with a broken beer bottle or a chair? These are the things self defense classes teach you, and none of it is what you see in MMA. It's about using anything and everything around you and trying to break the other guy's bones as efficiently and quickly as possible. Ultimately you have to create your own way to fight because everyone's body is different, and you can't defend yourself the same way as, say, Bas Rutten would, if you're a slimmer and smaller guy. But you have other options and advantages.

BTW, Bas Rutten is hilarious.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=D3K-mrlYG7Y

Take an MMA fighter, give him to BAS and you got a MONSTER