the Dany hate thread

[Godlikebuthumble]

Of course, the lesson Dany had to learn there was that it wasn't enough to just "liberate" the people of a political entity - it was essential to provide more hands-on guidance, to rule them. So she is doing that in Meereen. But the fact that the butcher ended up being just as bad as the slavers they replaced implies the Astaporians were more homogeneous than Dany expected.

Not to derail the thread, but I found it funny how Dany's perception of the slaves and slavery is about as misinformed as the one we have of ancient slavery. Slaves back then (mostly) didn't have any objections to the concept and practice of slavery (only that it sucked if they were the slaves). In fact, former slaves were more than happy to have slaves of their own (if they could afford some). Just as Spartacus wasn't in it to end slavery, but just to get his own ass out of chains. That's what cultural differences will do to you.

[Spastic Plastic]

To get back on topic:

Isn't anyone else a bit disturbed how sexualized Dany is in AGOT? When she is thirteen? I don't mean the sex scenes with Khal Drogo, since people did marry to get children at that age during medieval times.

Even the normal sex went a bit too far - she has sex with Drogo in almost every chapter of AGOT.

One chapter starts with "When Drogo had taken his pleasure, he rose up from the sleeping mats. His manhood glistened wetly." If I remember right it's the fifth or sixth Dany/Drogo sex scene, so it doesn't have anything to do with the plot.

The Stallion That Mounts The World ritual involves Drogo fucking Dany in public.

Then we read how Dany tried to revive her comatose husband by "pleasuring him with her fingers and mouth".

And in the last chapter, when Irri and Jiqui perfume Dany, it says "the last dab was for her sex" (which is OK), followed by a gratuitous line about Irri's perfumed finger sliding up Dany's pussy lips (which is...wrong).

It's only Dany who is sexualized like this - Catelyn and Cersei had sex with their husbands many times and I'm sure they had their vaginas cleaned by servants at some point, but it doesn't go into detail because it's irrelevant.

EDIT: I removed some personal comments on GRRM. I know, it's wrong of me to attack the author.

[corbon]

To get back on topic:

Isn't anyone else a bit disturbed how sexualized Dany is in AGOT? When she is thirteen? I don't mean the sex scenes with Khal Drogo, since people did marry to get children at that age during medieval times.

Nope, not in the slightest.

It seems entirely natural.

Nature* has declared her as a woman, not a girl. We (modern society) recognise that teenagers are not emotionally ready for a sexual relationship, even if they are physically capable. But that may in part, or even in whole, relate to the life experiences that they have in the modern world.

Who are we to say that 'medieval' people did not mature faster - certainly they had different focuses in their lifestyles, relationships etc and very much fewer complications to deal with compared to modern children. They also frequently had a greater 'family' (including non family members, even servants) connection and support than most modern youngsters.

I don't think that a 'knighted' 12yr old boy, fighting regularly against full grown men and in a position of authority over many adults, is likely to have the same emotional state as a modern 12 year old thrust into that position. He's trained for it for years, not just physically and mentally either and is probably more 'mature' in many senses than a modern 18 year old.

Similarly for a 13 year old 'woman' flowered. She's almost certainly had a great deal more emotional training and guidance** in 'readiness' for this time than a modern 13yr old and probably is better prepared than many modern 16-18 yr old girls (for all modern 'sex education' (which seems to be purely physical education) and 'liberated' values).

*recognising that girls, and indeed animals, who have only just started menstruating are not yet at their peak readiness for birth and further physical maturation is healthy. And noting even amongst societies that follow the 'natural' rule, many groups and individuals still recognise this fact, though societies that place a high value on raw strength and power are less likely to do so.

**even girls like Dany that may have lost much of the guidance and 'family' support. Cultural conditioning and expectations can be quite powerful too.

Even the normal sex went a bit too far - she has sex with Drogo in almost every chapter of AGOT.

One chapter starts with "When Drogo had taken his pleasure, he rose up from the sleeping mats. His manhood glistened wetly." If I remember right it's the fifth or sixth Dany/Drogo sex scene, so it doesn't have anything to do with the plot.

Perhaps it is a cultural thing? You have a 'lord' whose deepest basis of ruling lies is strength - and virility is a sign of that strength. He has a young and very beautiful 'queen'. They have a duty to get an heir. They'd be 'getting it on' very, very frequently I would think - and apart from the first 'initiation' (which could be a sign of something more than just barbarianism from Drogo, indicating that he might be a deeper person than his culture would allow him to appear) pretty much always on Drogo's terms. He's the boss (not just of her) - everything is always on his terms.

It's also a contrast. A sign of the sudden extreme changes Dany is going through.

Then you've got a young widow, one who has enjoyed frequent, and it seems mostly pleasurable sex. It's not my area of expertise, but young widows have a certain reputation. I'm sure it's not universally deserved and maybe even not commonly deserved, but must have some basis in reality...

The Stallion That Mounts The World ritual involves Drogo fucking Dany in public.

Different culture, different norms. It is quite apparent that public sex is not a taboo, or even considered particularly indecent in this culture.

Then we read how Dany tried to revive her comatose husband by "pleasuring him with her fingers and mouth".

And in the last chapter, when Irri and Jiqui perfume Dany, it says "the last dab was for her sex" (which is OK), followed by a gratuitous line about Irri's perfumed finger sliding up Dany's pussy lips (which is...wrong).

And when Drogo burns on the funeral pyre, Dany's first thought is "she wanted to mount him and take him inside her, so they could be dead together".

Haven't you heard the phrase 'able to make even the dead rise' before?

I think it is fairly natural for a young, healthy, sexually active (and enjoying it) person in a society in which sex is considered a natural thing rather than a 'taboo' thing to be thinking and acting this way. And it it a sharp contrast to the virginal Dany from the relatively recent past.

And let's not forget the gown that bares one tit,

Totally asexual on Dany's part, and the ability for her to accept it as being asexual is a clear indication that she has a far greater degree of sexual maturity than, as the contrasting example is given us, Jorah's very 'constrained' Westerosian views.

or the gratuitous lesbian sex scene in ASOS.

In indication that though she hasn't got a partner right now, that doesn't mean that her sexuality simply dries up. It also shows that she definitely prefers her sex to be as part of a meaningful relationship (the servant thing seems to turn her off somewhat, and though she considers or thinks about hawt men sexually, it's always with a view to partnership as well), and with a man.

What that tells us going forward is that she definitely wants a male partner who will be a partner, both in bed and out, even is she doesn't verbalise (mentalise?) it that way herself. That has implications for her relationships going forward, which is important to the story.

Frankly, getting all sexualised was a sudden and stark contrast, and natural for her situation. Suddenly then being much less sexualised would be fairly poor writing IMO. The way things have been written you get a sense of the sexualised young woman still there despite not really having an outlet and the tensions and internal struggles (sometimes not recognisable to her) that this situation adds.

I think its very well done actually. There isn't much explicit stuff really, yet there is a real sense of what is going on.

Now I believe GRRM is a bit of a dirty old man. It's only Dany who is sexualized like this - Catelyn and Cersei had sex with their husbands many times and I'm sure they had their vaginas cleaned by servants at some point, but it doesn't go into detail because it's irrelevant.

It's like GRRM had a special hard-on for Dany's chapters. That guy wrote Jorah Mormont with himself in mind.

Catelyn and Cersei were 'old marrieds'. Even if still sexually very active, and in Cersei's case passionately and illicitly (exciting?), the've had years, decades even, of handling this. Thus sex doesn't dominate their thinking, their feelings, their hormones, or their situation the way it does with Dany.

They've been sexually active for 17+ years, Dany for 1-2yrs at most. Being ready for a sexual relationship is one thing (I argued that Dany and Sansa at 13 might be a lot more ready than our own 16-18 years olds), but learning how to deal with it is another and takes experience.

In summary, I find Dany's sexualisation and it's contrast with Cersei/Catelyn's ability to be sexual without it dominating their characters to be entirely fitting and very well written.

One of the things I really like about the writing, is that the sex scenes aren't terribly explicit. They are there, as fits the story, but they are fairly matter of fact, often just a few lines.

3 pages of graphic sex for no real plot purpose is really boring if you're actually getting any.

[Spastic Plastic]

You're just picking apart the specific scenes I mentioned, and ignoring the bigger context.

When reading Cersei's chapters, I expected sex to dominate her character more. But GRRM managed to handle it well, and not even the lesbian sex with Lady Merryweather seemed gratuitous in any way. Not so with most of Dany's sex scenes - and keep in mind, I din't have a problem at all with the scenes where Drogo takes her virginity and later when she sexually dominates him. It was the friend who introduced me to these books who remarked that Dany gets laid in every single AGOT chapter, so I picked up AGOT and found these scenes.

Okay, I'm sick of waiting for ADWD and this is probably the reason why I'm picking out minor details like this and complaining about them. You're probably right with most of your arguments.

Sorry for derailing the thread.

And yes, I've hear the saying "able to make the dead rise".

[corbon]

You're just picking apart the specific scenes I mentioned, and ignoring the bigger context.

Given that the first part of my answer, devoted to context rather than scene, is the largest, I think that is hardly fair.

When reading Cersei's chapters, I expected sex to dominate her character more. But GRRM managed to handle it well, and not even the lesbian sex with Lady Merryweather seemed gratuitous in any way. Not so with most of Dany's sex scenes - and keep in mind, I din't have a problem at all with the scenes where Drogo takes her virginity and later when she sexually dominates him. It was the friend who introduced me to these books who remarked that Dany gets laid in every single AGOT chapter, so I picked up AGOT and found these scenes.

I thought I pointed out the reasons for that, and think it is actually a sign of some very deep clever writing.

Dany is young, healthy and new to sexual relationships. Thus they are a very potent part of her life (indeed, given the culture she married into and the limited shared language one might say that sex was the defining feature of her major relationship), whether central to the plot or not. And they are a symbolic contrast of the changes, from terrified, helpless (not just sexually) virgin to woman-in-charge.

In contrast, Cersei is a jaded user. Sex isn't really a big deal for her emotionally, even with Jaime, so even when present and central to the plot it isn't really central to her character. To have that 'feeling' come through, and contrast between the two characters is some very fine writing indeed methinks.

Okay, I'm sick of waiting for ADWD and this is probably the reason why I'm picking out minor details like this and complaining about them. You're probably right with most of your arguments.

Sorry for derailing the thread.

Heh, that I can understand.

I did think that since this was the 'hating Dany' thread, you were getting the thread 'back on track' rather than derailing it?

[Lord of Long Lake]

I personally like Dany but that's not what I'm writing about. I know a person who doesn't like Dany - and didn't even like her in agot - because she is too young. My rebutal was, Robb is also young when he leads armies into battle, and the characters in the books seem to develop faster than regular people. This person says that Dany is too young and it seems unrealistic and unvelievable; also her having dragons at such a young age seems unbelievable. This person says age doesn't matter with Robb etc. because they're men. Wow, that's not sexist (this person is a girl btw). Anyway, I was wondering if anyone else dislikes Dany due to these reasons, not because she is an inept leader or a bland character etc.

[mike_s_6]

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone else dislikes Dany due to these reasons, not because she is an inept leader or a bland character etc.

I don't agree, but I may understand where she is coming from, because the setting is pseudo medieval and women are treated and trained differently from men. Boys are taught to fight, rule, etc. Girls are trained to be courteous and beautiful. So yes, it's a bit more realistic in this setting for a boy to raise an army than a girl.

[Shaggydog Stark]

I personally like Dany but that's not what I'm writing about. I know a person who doesn't like Dany - and didn't even like her in agot - because she is too young. My rebutal was, Robb is also young when he leads armies into battle, and the characters in the books seem to develop faster than regular people. This person says that Dany is too young and it seems unrealistic and unvelievable; also her having dragons at such a young age seems unbelievable. This person says age doesn't matter with Robb etc. because they're men. Wow, that's not sexist (this person is a girl btw). Anyway, I was wondering if anyone else dislikes Dany due to these reasons, not because she is an inept leader or a bland character etc.

I don't agree, but I may understand where she is coming from, because the setting is pseudo medieval and women are treated and trained differently from men. Boys are taught to fight, rule, etc. Girls are trained to be courteous and beautiful. So yes, it's a bit more realistic in this setting for a boy to raise an army than a girl.

True, but it is for precisely this reason, amongst many that I like Dany. She breaks many stereotypes in such patriarchal societies that exist in the books.

[Kate Poem]

I don't want Dany on Iron Throne.

One hope I have she got a brain and she will change. Stop with teenager's hormones, she will begin learn her "children" and herself, she'll begin listen ser Barristan Selmy's stories about Westeros and her unknown father etc. etc.

But I don't want Queen Danaerys, no, no no!

[Lord of the Night]

I supported Dany all the way until A Dance with Dragons. Her attitude towards Jorah was unfair and his advice on distrusting people was entirely sound, she just didn't like his tone when he said it. But he was right in that she can welcome people to her side, just don't trust them until they really earn it and you've known them for a good long while. But her ploy with the Unsullied and Drogon was brilliant and her army is the coolest in the entire series.

But in ADWD she has completely lost her way and is hopped up on being a dragon like Viserys was. Like her line to Quaithe about demanding a straight answer, demanding something of a magic user? In EVERY series that is a bad idea. Her teen-like infatuation with Daario is a bit weak since she is looking for a new Drogo and Drogo would have annihilated Daario and used his bones as a saddle ornament. She has also lost her way completely, Jorah was right in that she should have left Meereen to the Meereenese, sack it and pillage it fine and take any slaves who want to go with you but do not try to annihilate the entire trade and make the world your enemy. She can't even control her own Dragons and now its up to Barristan to salvage her mess.

My support goes to Aegon who has proved himself to be a good commander, a wise leader and somebody who appreciates that blood doesn't mean everything. Long live the Dragon King!

[Slurms McKenzie]

I supported Dany all the way until A Dance with Dragons. Her attitude towards Jorah was unfair and his advice on distrusting people was entirely sound, she just didn't like his tone when he said it. But he was right in that she can welcome people to her side, just don't trust them until they really earn it and you've known them for a good long while. But her ploy with the Unsullied and Drogon was brilliant and her army is the coolest in the entire series.

But in ADWD she has completely lost her way and is hopped up on being a dragon like Viserys was. Like her line to Quaithe about demanding a straight answer, demanding something of a magic user? In EVERY series that is a bad idea. Her teen-like infatuation with Daario is a bit weak since she is looking for a new Drogo and Drogo would have annihilated Daario and used his bones as a saddle ornament. She has also lost her way completely, Jorah was right in that she should have left Meereen to the Meereenese, sack it and pillage it fine and take any slaves who want to go with you but do not try to annihilate the entire trade and make the world your enemy. She can't even control her own Dragons and now its up to Barristan to salvage her mess.

My support goes to Aegon who has proved himself to be a good commander, a wise leader and somebody who appreciates that blood doesn't mean everything. Long live the Dragon King!

Damn straight!

Although I'd support Stannis over Aegon.

[King Harren]

I must say I don't hate Dany. Her most fatal flaw is of course that she's far too trusting, which some people would see as stupidity.

[Ser-Arthur-Dayne]

Down with Dany! Down with Dany!

[mediocre cheese]

Not to derail the thread, but I found it funny how Dany's perception of the slaves and slavery is about as misinformed as the one we have of ancient slavery. Slaves back then (mostly) didn't have any objections to the concept and practice of slavery (only that it sucked if they were the slaves). In fact, former slaves were more than happy to have slaves of their own (if they could afford some). Just as Spartacus wasn't in it to end slavery, but just to get his own ass out of chains. That's what cultural differences will do to you.

This is a gross simplification of what slavery was like in antiquity.

[Defengar]

She is America. Literally.

She started out very weak, but very quickly she grew to be a major power in the world, freaking out a lot of the old players in the process. She has has done many "good" things but she is now getting herself muddled up in a bunch of bad situations involving trying to turn the culture of an entire part of the world upsidown instead of focusing on her real goal.

And like America, she is powerful, and here to stay.

[mediocre cheese]

She is America. Literally.

She started out very weak, but very quickly she grew to be a major power in the world, freaking out a lot of the old players in the process. She has has done many "good" things but she is now getting herself muddled up in a bunch of bad situations involving trying to turn the culture of an entire part of the world upsidown instead of focusing on her real goal.

And like America, she is powerful, and here to stay.

Manifest fucking destiny FTW.

[Ser-Arthur-Dayne]

She is America. Literally.

She started out very weak, but very quickly she grew to be a major power in the world, freaking out a lot of the old players in the process. She has has done many "good" things but she is now getting herself muddled up in a bunch of bad situations involving trying to turn the culture of an entire part of the world upsidown instead of focusing on her real goal.

And like America, she is powerful, and here to stay.

[Ms. Njalsson]

I'm really annoyed about how attached she is to Viserys' version of Westeros and their family. She never asks for the whole story, not even when it's jumping up and down and screaming to be told. I just want SBS or Jorah to say "Sorry, honey, but your royal father was an evil lunatic who roasted people alive." And it's not even like the Howland Reed nonappearance, because we already KNOW that the late king was an evil lunatic who roasted people alive. It's not going to give anything away to have Dany actually know the truth and understand that someone might, just might, have a damn good reason for hating her family and rising up against them.

[GreenHand]

Not to derail the thread, but I found it funny how Dany's perception of the slaves and slavery is about as misinformed as the one we have of ancient slavery. Slaves back then (mostly) didn't have any objections to the concept and practice of slavery (only that it sucked if they were the slaves). In fact, former slaves were more than happy to have slaves of their own (if they could afford some). Just as Spartacus wasn't in it to end slavery, but just to get his own ass out of chains. That's what cultural differences will do to you.

Though Dany is sexualised we also see an evolution in her. She starts out innocent and then after having being in the thick of Dothraki passions acclimatizes. Her hand maidens enter the fray, but not at Dany's initiation at first. It shows how matter-fact & sexually open the Dothraki are.

Spoiler

She only acts on anything near the end of ADWD.

.

We do in fact see her young age come into play in how she thinks about Daario and fantasizes. and through Barristan's refelctions about the young. But most tellingly we see her age and lingering sexual innocence when she sees the erotic murals on entering a new city (Was it Quarth?). She blushes and feels abashed and tells herself she needn't be since she is no longer a maiden.

[Defengar]

It seems like the current situation with dany could also be compared in some ways to the time right after WW2 when America was the only country with the bomb.

Right now she has the only "WMD`s" on the planet, and, as has been seen numerous times, many other nations and/or groups are desperately trying to get their hands on their own. Either by stealing some from her (dorn) or forcing her to give one up through economic means (the slave masters in Astapor), and Old town is likely trying to figure out some way of destroying the lot of them.

Like America back then, she has a massive advantage from the dragons, but they also attract a lot of unwanted attention and attacks.

Imo, sooner or later, someone is going to get their hands on their own WMD (possibly the "possible" ice dragon below winterfell, some sort of super faceless or ashai magic, or some sort of maester creation that dwarfs even wild fire is destructive capability).

It would be ultra lame if Dany arrived in the 7 kingdoms and steamrolled the shit out of everything until meeting with the others.