the Dany hate thread

[KAH]

I mean, in the end, that she doesn't want Westeros, she just doesn't want reality, and so she cannot settle for the little bits of happiness she has, and instead chooses to sacrifice the life of many others so she can have a go at bliss, deluding herself, refusing to consider, that Westeros would not be better than where she stands. She's young, maybe it's due to that. Like I said, one can still dislike the character because of that.

I don't disagree with this...still, it does have the feel of blaming Dany for something that she has not, in fact, done yet.

She aimed Drogo at Westeros, yes, but that arrow broke even before the bowstring could be properly pulled.

[Errant Bard]

I don't disagree with this...still, it does have the feel of blaming Dany for something that she has not, in fact, done yet.

I see it more as disliking her for what she is, for what she wants. What she does afterwards has little bearing on that. That's what I meant with the Khellus example: I can dissociate actions from personality. Right now Dany's unabated desire to bring war to Westeros shows a lack of thought and/or a disregard of human life in favour of selfish desire, that's all.

[KAH]

I see it more as disliking her for what she is, for what she wants. What she does afterwards has little bearing on that. That's what I meant with the Khellus example: I can dissociate actions from personality. Right now Dany's unabated desire to bring war to Westeros shows a lack of thought and/or a disregard of human life in favour of selfish desire, that's all.

Are you what you do, or are you what you think?

I think Dany will have a serious handicap vis-a-vis Robb if the latter view is to prevail, since we have her PoV and since we do not have not Robbs.

It mirrors the whole 'whiny' allegation we get for various characters who never actually *do* whine, we just have the misfortune (?) to be stuck in their heads.

[Errant Bard]

Are you what you do, or are you what you think?

As a character from whom we have the very thoughts, you are described by what you think, mostly.

Even without mind-reading, motivation has always been the prime reason for difference of sentences during trials, hasn't it? It changes the way you view a person. Taking an example, do you like a professed racist as much as another guy, when both have not done anything beside letting you know their opinion?

I think Dany will have a serious handicap vis-a-vis Robb if the latter view is to prevail, since we have her PoV and since we do not have not Robbs.

Depends on how her PoV shapes up. Martin reached his goal of giving the children power, by ASOS. Now it's going to be way less cheesy than before, as he doesn't need to bend over backward so the kids get their army of doom.

I know that I don't actually like Robb better than Dany, but for different reasons (and it changes whether you talk of character or personality or just one aspect of their personality, too).

It mirrors the whole 'whiny' allegation we get for various characters who never actually *do* whine, we just have the misfortune (?) to be stuck in their heads.

It does, only the "whine" allegations are totally ludicrous in most cases. Cat is indeed a grieving mother and wife, losing everything one bite at a time, and her inner dialogue shows that. It makes her sympathetic to me. Some are put off by it and use the "whine" derogatory term. Still doesn't change that Cat is grieving. That's not all she is, but that's a major part of her character, how to deny that because she... never cries or actually does anything much to show that grieving?

If we consider only actions, Jon is a real deserter and oathbreaker, Ned is a real traitor hungry for power, Arya is a heartless murderer and traitor, after all.

[KAH]

As a character from whom we have the very thoughts, you are described by what you think, mostly.

Even without mind-reading, motivation has always been the prime reason for difference of sentences during trials, hasn't it? It changes the way you view a person. Taking an example, do you like a professed racist as much as another guy, when both have not done anything beside letting you know their opinion?

I don't disagree that it will have an effect on the reader. Still, I'd take the racist who did nothing over the killer whose motivation I do not know, any day. I feel Dany is rated below other non-PoV characters who actually do things that merit censure (not by you in particular, mind).

If Dany follows up on her pursuit of an idealized dream-Westeros without pause, I'd have far more understanding of the Dany dislike. Especially now, that she is not the naive girl she once were...

[Spastic Plastic]

It's pretty funny when Dany is in Qarth, and lives in total luxury. She asks herself if Westeros is a land of marble palaces and beautiful gardens, and then decides that it probably is.

[Starkess]

I just re-read this entire fucking thread and it's really galling. It goes from "I hate Dany, here's why" to "OMG the ONLY POSSIBLE REASON to hate Dany is because she's got a vagina!" And that overruns everything else into just another sexism argument. For example, I found this post which quotes me (in bold).

These comments is just from this thread but they are completely typical for the subject.

...

I don't really like Dany, in fact I downright dislike her, but I wouldn't call myself a Dany-hater. She is what she is. Really, if anything, I'm annoyed at GRRM for creating her.

Now this is what I call hate. Simply heartfelt dislike were boarders doesn’t even pretend too be reasonable. Please show me a male character in the series that face this kind of passionate abuse with such a sexist slant or admit that you are talking out of your ass.

And this quote of mine was used to support the idea that people don't have reasons for hating Dany other than the fact that she's a girl where a girl "doesn't belong." Which has zero to do with what I said. In fact, what I was saying was that while I dislike Dany quite a lot, it isn't really because of HER but because of the way she has been WRITTEN. IE, plot armor, being disconnected from the rest of the action, extensive use of tropes. So yes, I am pretending to be reasonable.

Also, this is a Dany hate thread. Why would I be talking about the male characters I detest? There's a whole laundry list of 'em. Jaime and Tyrion for starters.

One could think so, but generally protagonists have the readers sympathies despite their annoying success and luck. Where is the “I hate Jon†threads? Yes, there are people that dislike Jon for this, but I can’t recall anyone saying that “I’m annoyed with Martin for creating him and I would laugh if Ghost bit him and he died of rabies.â€

Because clearly, me not liking the way Dany is written is on par with wishing violent things upon her.

I can’t show you how people think. Perhaps people really see Cat, Dany and Sansa as the most suitable objects for scathing criticism and death wishes of all known characters in Westeros and it has nothing to do with that they are women, it’s however the best explanation I have for the one-sided criticism they receives and how comparable men are admired for similar traits. It’s not that people don’t like them, it’s how people really goes out of their way to find fault with them without doing so with similar men.

I think the problem is that people think that Dany, Catelyn, and Sansa are so hated, and since they are all girls, everyone who hates one of them must be sexist. It's a bogus argument. I am an individual, and as such I do strongly dislike Dany. But I happen to somewhat like Sansa--I started out loathing her, but she's grown on me. I'm meh about Catelyn. Just because these 3 are the most intensely debated does not mean that everyone's opinions on all of them are the same!

Also, again, why would we be discussing men that we hate in an anti-Dany thread?

Blah. Okay, so, necromancing aside, I definitely agree with the "foreign invader" idea. We were discussing this in the ambition thread. I'm not saying that Dany is 100% wrong, but as to why that makes people dislike her character, yeah, that feeling definitely contributes. There are plenty of people I dislike IRL not because I think they're terrible people, but because I don't like their "vibe" or we just clash personality- or ideal-wise.

[Liadin]

I'm ambivalent about Dany (sometimes I think she's kind of cool), but I dislike the foreign-invader aspect, and I dislike her sense of entitlement. Nothing new there, but I'd suggest that one of the reasons many people have problems with her sense of entitlement (as opposed to all the other king-wannabes) is that we actually get Dany's POV. If we had to read chapters upon chapters of Balon Greyjoy or Renly or Stannis or anyone else thinking he deserved to be king of all Westeros, I think many people would raise the same objection.

The Robb analogy only goes so far. Robb wants to be king of the North and the Riverlands, two regions that want to throw off central rule--and that already govern themselves more or less, so the only real change they're trying to effect is cutting off the Crown's influence, but otherwise keeping their same leaders. In addition, we don't see a whole lot of entitlement from Robb: the bannermen bring up the idea of secession, Robb runs with it, and we never see him thinking about how he deserves to be king of all the realm and he'll kill whomever he needs to kill to achieve it. To some extent I'm sure the difference is artificial--GRRM wants us to like Robb and thus gives him aspects of the "reluctant hero" as with the other Stark men. But Robb never comes across as having a grandiose sense of self-worth due to his "birthright," and he's supported in his kingship by all of the local leaders.

I do think Dany's story would read somewhat differently if a group of Westerosi nobles got together and asked Dany to rule over them. Not to take the whole realm mind, not "Come and help us hack to pieces all these lords we have grudges against, and all their families and smallfolk in the process" (which as far as I can tell is what Doran wants), just, "Come rule us in this territory, we want a Targaryen king." But that's not what we get; we see minimal support for Dany among the people who actually live in the territory she wants to rule, and she gets support from those people only because they have a chip on their shoulder wrt the current ruler .

[Lady Blackfish]

Tangential to the main topic, but since the comparison gets mileage -- I don't think Robb is at all a reluctant hero. Every step of the way, Robb is unsure but quite willing. He isn't "I never wanted this, I never asked for this," but rather "I never knew this would be so hard". Robb was raised to embrace leadership, and every time he has to, he goes for it, and every time he messes up, the egg is on his face and no one else's. I think he's supposed to be like his mother this way, sorry to say

However I do think there's a difference between him and Dany in that Robb's reasons for going along with the Greatjon's monumentally brilliant king in the north idea is umbrage at following the murderers of his father combined with unsureness at how to say no to his bannermen. He doesn't dream of great power or truly lust for anything more than he has, though neither is he reluctant about it.

Dany of course starts out with nothing, she's been dispossessed. I think her desire for the iron throne is supposed to start out sympathetic and then become more and more iffy as she gets closer to Westeros, which I don't have a problem with. As far as characters go, I don't at all mind reading about people whose goals I don't agree with. I find Theon and Stannis to be two of the best characters in the whole series. Also, I think a major difference between me and most readers is that I don't see the iron throne as a plot payoff. Obviously the resolution of the series is tied up in knowing who gets it, but I don't necessarily think we're reading a story where that resolution will come off as a reward to a character who truly deserves good things happening to them, for certain values of "deserves". Reading a story about someone who gets the iron throne by virtue of factors other than merit, well that seems to fit with the somewhat cynical tone of ASOIAF anyway.

[Liadin]

Tangential to the main topic, but since the comparison gets mileage -- I don't think Robb is at all a reluctant hero. Every step of the way, Robb is unsure but quite willing. He isn't "I never wanted this, I never asked for this," but rather "I never knew this would be so hard". Robb was raised to embrace leadership, and every time he has to, he goes for it, and every time he messes up, the egg is on his face and no one else's. I think he's supposed to be like his mother this way, sorry to say

No, I suppose Robb isn't especially reluctant, but as far as we know anointing him king was not his own idea, and he never pursues any power other than what's handed to him, except insofar as continuing the war he was already engaged in as heir to and then lord of Winterfell counts as "pursuing power." My point with the Dany/Robb comparison is that while many readers say "he's got just as much of an entitlement complex as she does!" that he really doesn't. Yes he feels entitled to keep what other people hand to him, but that statement probably accurately describes 95% of humanity.

Dany of course starts out with nothing, she's been dispossessed. I think her desire for the iron throne is supposed to start out sympathetic and then become more and more iffy as she gets closer to Westeros, which I don't have a problem with.

It's interesting that you say that; it seems to me that many readers' feelings tend to go the opposite way. At the beginning, Viserys and Dany seem like the classic baddies (or rather, he's a classic baddie and she's the classic unempowered woman through whose eyes we observe him): Viserys especially is this megalomaniacal kid with no leadership skills who wants to conquer a country he barely knows, and when Dany adopts his goals she's all about using the Dothraki (who promise to rape and pillage everywhere) and even accepts the enslavement of innocents in order to attain that goal. In more recent books, Dany develops some leadership skills and more of a moral compass, and meanwhile most of the best leaders in Westeros have been killed off, which I think is supposed to make her look like more of a viable option.

As far as characters go, I don't at all mind reading about people whose goals I don't agree with. I find Theon and Stannis to be two of the best characters in the whole series. Also, I think a major difference between me and most readers is that I don't see the iron throne as a plot payoff. Obviously the resolution of the series is tied up in knowing who gets it, but I don't necessarily think we're reading a story where that resolution will come off as a reward to a character who truly deserves good things happening to them, for certain values of "deserves". Reading a story about someone who gets the iron throne by virtue of factors other than merit, well that seems to fit with the somewhat cynical tone of ASOIAF anyway.

I don't mind reading about characters I don't agree with; I only object when it becomes clear from the text that I'm supposed to support them in their goals. That's not necessarily the case with Dany. Still, while I don't mind reading about her, I do find her kind of repugnant in some ways.

And I think whether or not the throne will be a "plot payoff" depends on who gets it. It'll be really hard for readers not to see it that way if it winds up in the hands of Dany, Jon, or Tyrion. If Tommen's still King at the end of the series, then I would agree with you.

[Ser David the Just]

I like reading about Dany because she is stupid. Not stupid in the ignorant kind of way like Cersei but more just naive. I enjoyed seeing how "freeing the slaves" blew up in her face. I hope the lesbian aspect develops more, I wouldn't mind reading about Dany having a harem of lesbian lovers and propaganda like that would go a long way towards making Westeros more receptive to her invasion.

[Lady Blackfish]

My point with the Dany/Robb comparison is that while many readers say "he's got just as much of an entitlement complex as she does!" that he really doesn't. Yes he feels entitled to keep what other people hand to him, but that statement probably accurately describes 95% of humanity.

Right, I don't think entitlement is a good point of comparison. Magical pets and badass advisers, perhaps, but I don't feel that those are a the problems people have with Dany in and of themselves, exactly. At any rate I don't think the comparison works if for no other reason than that Robb is set up to be the golden boy in order that it hurts when he falls. That's not really the case with Dany.

It's interesting that you say that; it seems to me that many readers' feelings tend to go the opposite way [...]

I feel like Dany being that unempowered woman is what makes her initially sympathetic. We definitely dislike Viserys, but not her so much, since she is one of his victims and becomes the one who eventually pwns him. I didn't feel like reader opinions of Viserys' quest for the throne rubbed off on Dany's, but perhaps I'm mistaken. While her methods are kind of shaky at first, we kind of excuse her because it's all that's available to her and we want her to be empowered so badly. I'm not so sure that a lot of readers feel like Dany becomes an iffier prospect as time goes on, but I wonder if GRRM wanted us to see that. She gains know-how and confidence and in the meantime others fall, but by that point in time I as a reader became pressed into a "Be careful what you wish for" mentality. All this is very tied up in my estimations of authorial intent and that's always really shaky ground, but I want to say it's a tit for tat thing: yes Dany is becoming more competent, but scary in other ways.

I don't mind reading about characters I don't agree with; I only object when it becomes clear from the text that I'm supposed to support them in their goals. That's not necessarily the case with Dany. Still, while I don't mind reading about her, I do find her kind of repugnant in some ways.

The degree of her less appetizing actions maybe is a bit too much, it might make it difficult to sustain her as even a grey character, which I would say is the darkest shade Martin might want us to see her as at this point. If it feels like Martin is whitewashing her then it's understandable that she'll irritate. I really don't have my own opinion to constructively offer here though.

And I think whether or not the throne will be a "plot payoff" depends on who gets it. It'll be really hard for readers not to see it that way if it winds up in the hands of Dany, Jon, or Tyrion.

And yet I kinda want to see Martin pull it off (er, by which I mean, I'd like to see Martin put one of them on the throne without it feeling like an unvarnished plot reward).

[Errant Bard]

If it feels like Martin is whitewashing her then it's understandable that she'll irritate.

He's totally whitewashing her, in a way: that's the reason she got painfully one-dimensional black hats to defeat (unbelievably easily and cleanly, too) in exchange for her super army of doom slaves, or how she got dragons: as a present plus killing one girl that betrayed her trust, killed her husband and her baby.

Contrast that with the only way he had Vyserys try to get his army: by selling off his own sister, it's not really the same.

If he didn't care about the whiteness of Dany, he'd still give her the will, but none of the karma-defying coincidences: Dany would have had to kill normal people for her dragons... note that it's what Melisandre wants to do, and she's not precisely liked. She would then have had to slaughter or otherwise deal with fully realized characters -grey ones- (let's say: Tyrions, Tywins, Jorahs, Cerseis, Renlys, GreatJons, Rooses) to get power enough to hire an army that would not be composed of terminally obedient droids, but of Daario-likes... Even killing a Cersei would put a totally different spin on readers' perception of the Astapor coup, I think, after all it's what villains like Roose do, not heroes like Ned.

[Lady Blackfish]

The greyness of Dany's setting compared to Westeros is obviously much lesser. But part of me disagrees that the intent is to whitewash: I sometimes feel like Dany is a meta commentary on those kinds of Conan the Barbarian stories, it's just taking a while for the punchline to be delivered (because the story has grown in the telling). The obvious flatness of her setting is so obvious that I wonder if Martin is really trying to pull the wool over our eyes. However, again authorial intent is difficult to talk about, and for all I know I'm just pulling this out of my ass. It certainly isn't the opinion that most people take a way from Dany's storyline, so if Martin is intending there to be anything below the superficial story, we might criticize the effectiveness of his communication.

[Liadin]

Right, I don't think entitlement is a good point of comparison. Magical pets and badass advisers, perhaps, but I don't feel that those are a the problems people have with Dany in and of themselves, exactly. At any rate I don't think the comparison works if for no other reason than that Robb is set up to be the golden boy in order that it hurts when he falls. That's not really the case with Dany.

I agree with you on this; there are many people who would compare them wrt entitlement, but until one of them responds there's not much more to be said about it.

I feel like Dany being that unempowered woman is what makes her initially sympathetic. We definitely dislike Viserys, but not her so much, since she is one of his victims and becomes the one who eventually pwns him. I didn't feel like reader opinions of Viserys' quest for the throne rubbed off on Dany's, but perhaps I'm mistaken. While her methods are kind of shaky at first, we kind of excuse her because it's all that's available to her and we want her to be empowered so badly. I'm not so sure that a lot of readers feel like Dany becomes an iffier prospect as time goes on, but I wonder if GRRM wanted us to see that. She gains know-how and confidence and in the meantime others fall, but by that point in time I as a reader became pressed into a "Be careful what you wish for" mentality. All this is very tied up in my estimations of authorial intent and that's always really shaky ground, but I want to say it's a tit for tat thing: yes Dany is becoming more competent, but scary in other ways.

I just had a different reaction to Dany than you did then. I found her an uncomplicatedly sympathetic character so long as she was unempowered, but not so much as soon as she adopted Viserys's ambitions and started putting the pressure on Drogo to invade Westeros. I certainly didn't want her to be empowered to the point that I thought making money on the slave trade and using it to bring mercenaries and Dothraki to pillage her own land was a good idea. It seemed to me that she took on aspects of Viserys's personality when he died, and that's inherently unsympathetic, but she gets some points for her attempts to rule well.

At any rate, my first read-through I was somewhere in the third book before I started seeing Dany as potentially a "good" character rather than the classic-invader-baddie with some sympathetic qualities.

And yet I kinda want to see Martin pull it off (er, by which I mean, I'd like to see Martin put one of them on the throne without it feeling like an unvarnished plot reward).

I'm sure he could do that, by making the character unsympathetic enough and other sympathetic characters ambivalent enough about his/her rule. A lot of readers probably would see it as plot reward though.

[Lummel]

I wonder if the whitewash actual makes the dragons and the super-doom-slave army white elephants for Dany.

OK she conveniently acquires both. Both very powerful, both potentially game changing but both present their own problems.

Sure the dragons are potentially very destructive, if they grow big & strong enough and if they can be trained for war and if Dany can find trusted riders for them and if she can feed them and if she can ship them to Westeros...

Equally the unsullied are great infantry, obidient, don't feel pain & can kill puppies without qualms, but what can she do with them once the fighting is over, they can hardly be demobilised and sent home or resettled.

The dragons and the unsullied appear to make the idea of a reconquest of Westeros plausible while actually giving new responsibilities to Dany.

At first Dany is sympathetic because she is weak and put upon, now it seems she is moving into the realities of responsibilty. Isn't there a contrast to Robert here conquoring the kingdom is fun but the day to day work of being the top dog is a different kind of game of thrones?

[Errant Bard]

I wonder if the whitewash actual makes the dragons and the super-doom-slave army white elephants for Dany.

OK she conveniently acquires both. Both very powerful, both potentially game changing but both present their own problems.

But that's not the point. Potential problems in the future have no bearing on the tone of Dany's greyness. What shows (too obviously, after all it's always plot devices in fiction) whitewashing is the way GRRM sets up her acquisition of these powers (it becomes all the more flagrant when compared with the way anyone else bar Jon gets their powers)

Though, now that I think about it, GRRM does that for a number of his protagonists: Robb doesn't get his army free either, he has to sell his sisters to a local warlord, only he's not the one sent negotiating (oh, how it would have dirtied him, to directly agree to this just to continue a revenge war, he'd have been Vyserys), Bran gets everything free (by free I mean no moral involvement on his part), and Jon just gets everything thrust on him...

Hmm, I wonder if this board hasn't set me up for a big disappointment reading the rest of the books.

[Lummel]

Ah my good Sir, I apologise for my part in your potential disappointment.

I would agree that moral conflict in decision making is not a major theme, with the consequences of actions and interactions being more important.

[Spastic Plastic]

I didn't know Dany was supposed to be a good heroine until pretty recently. I first read AGOT and ACOK a year ago, and I thought she was supposed to be the main villain. The Darth Vader of the story (I never paid much attention to the Others, who are a minor sideshow attraction). But instead of giving her a sympathetic backstory, GRRM was making it a parallel story to the current events.

I know it's really simplistic to think of ASOIAF as "heroes vs. villains", but it made more sense for me initially to think of Dany as an antagonist.

Just for you guys to think about, aren't these characters villains?

Jaime Lannister

Jorah Mormont

Mance Rayder

Rickard Karstark

I think they are.

[Liadin]

I didn't know Dany was supposed to be a good heroine until pretty recently. I first read AGOT and ACOK a year ago, and I thought she was supposed to be the main villain. The Darth Vader of the story (I never paid much attention to the Others, who are a minor sideshow attraction). But instead of giving her a sympathetic backstory, GRRM was making it a parallel story to the current events.

I know it's really simplistic to think of ASOIAF as "heroes vs. villains", but it made more sense for me initially to think of Dany as an antagonist.

Just for you guys to think about, aren't these characters villains?

Jaime Lannister

Jorah Mormont

Mance Rayder

Rickard Karstark

I think they are.

I'd clarify that "villains" doesn't mean "one-dimensional embodiments of evil," but rather "multifaceted characters who fulfill the narrative function of a villain," and then I'd agree with you. That's basically how I saw Dany too--that's really how GRRM sets it up; the classic fantasy design of "ultimate evil threatens from North.... meanwhile the land in invaded by a vengeful [something].... meanwhile there is civil war!" Robert Jordan did the same thing.

One difference is that I expected the Others to be the "ultimate evil," while Viserys and/or Dany would be the invaders there to create extra conflict. Jorah was their sidekick, and Jaime was just awful. Mance was set up as a villain, although I could never think of him as such once he was finally introduced. Karstark is the only one I don't agree with you on--he was a minor sideshow, and the time that passed between his betrayal and execution was brief.