Some Questions About Knight of the Laughing Tree

[CelticBrennus]

1) Lyanna clearly has guts and fighting skills as she took down three squires with a tourney sword to protect Howland.

Three squires, who may or may not have been armed, and who knew they were being swung at by a daughter of a Great House. Yeah, I am sure they were really going to take a swing at her. If they actually harmed her, they would be killed or damn close.

2) Howland had never ridden a horse at the time of this story. Jaime says that jousting is for the most part good horsemanship. When Harwin compliments Arya's riding he says that Lyanna was also an excellent horse rider.

Being a good rider does not mean that you would be able to joust.

3) Ned, when organizing "dancing" lessons for Arya, reflects that she reminds him of Lyanna.

Yes, they are both headstrong and the like.

4) If it was Howland why didn't he reveal himself after unhorsing the three knights?

There are far more options then merely Howland and Lyanna. You could even say it was Jaime Lannister if you wanted too.

5) Aerys sends Rhaegar out to hunt down the KOTLT. Would Rhaegar fail? As Benjen said, the squires would lead him straight to Howland and Lyanna. Link this with the feast at which Rhaegar sang a song that made Lyanna cry, and with Rhaegar crowning Lyanna QoLaB, and it seems likely that Rhaegar found tKotLT/Lyanna and something happened between them.

Why would what happened with the squires have a single solitary connection to the Laughing Knight whatsoever? What in the experiance they had would lead them to make that connection, and if they did, would they confess to beating an unarmed nobleman under the protection of a Great House, and possibly attemping to strike back at a daughter of that house?

1) It had to be SOMEBODY! What I mean by this is that the KotLT did not just appear- it had to be one of the people who Howland interacted with that day- so, the list of suspects is decidedly small: Lyanna, Ned, Benjen, Brandon, Robert, Rhaegar, one of the KG, and possibly a few others like Ashara Dayne.

It could be Jaime Lannister. He was sent away from the tourney, and we see him looking back while riding away, but nothing to prove he didnt turn around.

It could be one of the Children of the Forrest. Reed prayed toward the island where he spent time with them, and perhaps they used their magic to create a champion for him.

2) Why the helmet? There had to be a reason that EVEN AFTER the KotlT’s victory s/he did not show his/her’s face. I have often said that this fact alone eliminates almost every male suspect.

Why not wear the helmet? All that does is suggest that it was someoen who didnt want to be identified. Why would Lyanna not reveal herself? She is supposed to have the wolf blood, and what would be more in line wiht that then by shaming three champions then revealing a child, let alone a girl, beat them.

The Reed children seem perplexed that Bran does not know the story of the KotLT;

Well, their father, aunt and two uncles were there, along with what was likely a large number of members of the household. Nothing too suprising there. In fact, that is good evidence that it was Ned who did it, given his known dislike for tourneys, and explains why he didnt say anything

-Lyanna was willful, prideful, honorable, tough, and decent (at least from what we know from tangential characters, including Ned and Arya). She was also a risk taker (Ned) who seems the type who would do an act such as the KotLT;

Why wouldnt she reveal her identity at the end?

- Lyanna had no “formal†training on how to fight and that Rickard “refused†to let her train. I want to say that in order for Rickard to “refuse†to let her fight, that would mean at some point, Lyanna ASKED for the training- and we know she is willful enough to ignore her father’s orders.

Fighting, such as fooling around with a sword is totally and completely different then learnign to joust.

Anyway, in Meera’s story to Bran it specifically states that when Howland was being attacked by the squires Lyanna “….laid into the squires with a tourney sword, scattering them all.†One girl against multiple enemies- probably some “shock value†in her attacks, but she did “scatter them all.†So, she can fight and WITH a sword. So, she has some basic knowledge.

Addressed above. She scattered a group of people who were likely terrified at the idea of striking her back and harming her.

-The rider in the passage is described as slight, in ill-fitting armor. Smaller people make smaller targets in a joust. Finally, the rider does not take off his/her helm indicating he/she did not want to be identified. The slight part leaves, really, only Dayne, Lyanna, and Howland Reed. Ned and Brandon were not slight and would have NO reason to hide their identity;

Why would it eliminate Ned? He was never a large man, and would have still been growing at the time of the tourney. Plus, he would actually have had learned to joust and been taught by people who really knew what tehy were doing.

-present at Harrenhal;

-Old enough to sit a horse and ride with a lance (eliminates Benjen)

How do we know? He was a good rider and fighter, both traits that Lyanna has in your claim, plus would have had actual training in jousting.

-Be small of build enough that their small stature is noticeable (eliminates Ned and Brandon);

How old was Ned? Early/mid teens? And slight compared to the giants we see emerging as champions. Guys like Loras are described as slender and small compared to the other champions like the Hound, Jaime or Robert

-Someone who would have some reason to hide their identity (re-eliminates the Stark boys, Rahegar, and several others);

Why does that eliminate Lyanna?

-Someone who interacted with Howland Reed (eliminates Ashara Dayne, Robert Baratheon, etc etc etc);

Was Ashara an actual candidate?

At the END of all this we come BACK to the beginning. There is something STRANGE going on when the Reeds tell Bran the story; Reed children cannot FATHOM why Bran does not KNOW the story already (they ask him twice if he is SURE he does not know the story). If the Reed children are telling Bran a story about Lyanna, this makes sense; it seems out of place that they would expect Bran to know a story about Ashara Dayne a woman he has no connection to at all.

This merely gives evidence that it was Ned. After all, they cannot fathom that the Stark childrens own father, who rode to defend Howland's honor, earning his a loyal friend for life, would not tell this story to them?

I still like the idea it was one of the Children of the Forrest or a creation of theirs. Very Gawain and the Green Knight-ish.

[Rockroi]

I can also imagine Brandon encouraging her to no end--not sure why, it just fits my view of him.

WOW!!!! That's kind of a bomb you dropped there at the end. Again, almost poetically tragic- it was Brandon, of all people, who helped Lyanna become the KotLT, and Lyanna's actions lead inexorably to Rhaegar discovering her as the KotLT, which kead to them getting together, which lead to... Brandon riding into to KL, demanding that Rhaegar "come out and die" and thus... sealed all their fates...

However, back to your points:

Benjen: I think Benjen is still too young; Tommen is riding against straw men in armor in ACoK, not in a tourney. However, even if we accept that Benjen is old enough, I STILL see no reason why he would keep his identity secret- remember, the Starks don't go to tournaments very often and thus the chances for "revenge" are slim. Finally, I AGAIN, wonder why Howland and Benjen would get along so well- there is no evidence of this in the story; the ones Howland seems to get with so well are Ned and Lyanna.

I guess some peices are there that COULD be Benjen - his size, his accumen on horses, his defense of others (ie- Night watch inclination). However, if anything makes Benjen is probably the LEAST interesting of all of the answers, unless somehow, his powers that made him Coldhands somehow came into play.

Ned and Brandon: I think Ned and Brandon fail due to size (neither is described as small- and Brandon beat the shit out of LF and we were with Ned for 8 chapters). If Ned WAS the KotLT, again, seems odd that being in his head he never had a thought about this action. Further, just like Benjen, they fails the "Why the Helmet" test. There is NO reason to hide. Even if Aerys freaks out- they have no idea they should be in fear of retrobution. Again, all this seems very strange.

[Rockroi]

CB:

Three squires, who may or may not have been armed, and who knew they were being swung at by a daughter of a Great House. Yeah, I am sure they were really going to take a swing at her. If they actually harmed her, they would be killed or damn close.

I agree with the first part. There is no evidence they were armed. However, SHE WAS! Seems to indicate she knew what she was doing. And I disagree they feared for their lives if they struck back. I think if they claimed she attacked and they disarmed her, they would be okay.

Being a good rider does not mean that you would be able to joust.

Agreed. But it would be an advantage over somebody who had never ridden a horse, like Howland Reed.

There are far more options then merely Howland and Lyanna. You could even say it was Jaime Lannister if you wanted too.

Agreed. However, the person would MOST LIKELY be somebody we know Howland interacted with that day. Its possible he interacted with somebody not mentioned, highly unlikely (it makes the story nonsensical). And if we say it was Jaime… why not reveal yourself? As soon as the last house is down, fling off the mask and declare, “See how awesome I am?†(Jaime would say that). And if it WERE Jaime- or another KG –it fails the “Why didn’t your father tell you this story†test. Again, Jojen and Meera are SHOCKED that Bran does not know this story. Why? Why would they be SHOCKED that Bran Stark does not know the story of the day Jaime Lannister donned armor and pretended to be the KotLT? And all the KG fail the “small in ill-fitting armor†test.

Why would what happened with the squires have a single solitary connection to the Laughing Knight whatsoever? What in the experiance they had would lead them to make that connection, and if they did, would they confess to beating an unarmed nobleman under the protection of a Great House, and possibly attemping to strike back at a daughter of that house?

I do not understand this point (in all seriousness, not trying to be a jerk- I do not understand your point).

It could be Jaime Lannister. He was sent away from the tourney, and we see him looking back while riding away, but nothing to prove he didnt turn around.

Jaime fails many of the tests I described above. He;s too big, no real interaction with Howland, and I SINCERELY Jaime would lecture ANYONE on "honor" (as the KotLT did).

It could be one of the Children of the Forrest. Reed prayed toward the island where he spent time with them, and perhaps they used their magic to create a champion for him.

Then the story is nonsensical as there is no reason why the Reed children should be EXASPERATED that Bran has never heard of it. If it were the CotF, we needed more evidence.

Why not wear the helmet? All that does is suggest that it was someoen who didnt want to be identified. Why would Lyanna not reveal herself?

Being a woman makes you not want to reveal yourself as its not culturally allowed at the time. She has respect for her family and does not want to upset them or get her father angry. This is 100% different than had it been a male Stark. Woman are basically second-class citizens in the books and their station is beneath that of tournament glories.

Well, their father, aunt and two uncles were there, along with what was likely a large number of members of the household. Nothing too suprising there. In fact, that is good evidence that it was Ned who did it, given his known dislike for tourneys, and explains why he didnt say anything

No. Their exasperation is not dedicated to why Ned never told them about their family; its completely shocking that Ned would not tell his children this story. Again, that eliminates many of the non-Stark suspects for obvious reasons. Its not evidence that Ned dislikes tournaments- the story was NOT about the tournament; the story was about the KotLT and what that person did with regards to Howland, the squires, and the point s/he made. Yes, the SETTING was a tournament, but the STORY was more important.

Fighting, such as fooling around with a sword is totally and completely different then learning to joust.

Agreed. However, there is no evidence that Ned even knew how to joust (or Brandon, Benjen, etc). They were not known to attend tournaments very often. That would KO all of them. However, for the sake of argument, lets say they had some knowledge. Also, basically EVERY character in the series has stated that jousts and tournaments are TRICKY business- subject to luck and other factors. Its not insane to think a small target (like Lyanna) with a good horse (like that or a noblewoman) and good teachers (like Brandon) would not do well.

Addressed above. She scattered a group of people who were likely terrified at the idea of striking her back and harming her.

There is no evidence that they were terrified of striking her. There is evidence that they were terrified of she striking them.

Why would (size) eliminate Ned? He was never a large man, and would have still been growing at the time of the tourney. Plus, he would actually have had learned to joust and been taught by people who really knew what tehy were doing.

No evidence that Ned ever learned to joust. Maybe he did, maybe he did not. He was fostered in the Vale, so its possible. However, he was NEVER described as small or slight- just not huge. The KotLT is described as very very small. Small to the point its noticeable. Hardly a Ned-like physique even if he was just growing (None of Ned’s older “sons†are described as slight at their ages).

How do we know (thst Benjen was not old enough to sit a horse or ride in tournaments)? He was a good rider and fighter, both traits that Lyanna has in your claim, plus would have had actual training in jousting.

We know Benjen became both at some point, but by that point? Again, its possible. However, no evidence he ever jousted. I have other reasons why I think Benjen is a poor candidate in the prior post.

How old was Ned? Early/mid teens? And slight compared to the giants we see emerging as champions. Guys like Loras are described as slender and small compared to the other champions like the Hound, Jaime or Robert

Ned was 16-17; the war started the next year and Ned was 18 (IIRC). And No- Ned is NOT slight when compared to giants; he’s NOT SLIGHT! He’s a well-proportioned man. He is a TERRIBLE candidate for the KotLT because he’d be too big. Again, I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

Was Ashara an actual candidate?

Yeah, in the original argument thread, one poster has a better-than-mediocre argument that the KotLT is Ashara Dayne. I think it’s a preposterous theory as stated in that very same thread.

This merely gives evidence that it was Ned. After all, they cannot fathom that the Stark childrens own father, who rode to defend Howland's honor, earning his a loyal friend for life, would not tell this story to them?

It could be Ned. Ned has a few things going for him: he knows how to fight (raised in the Vale, is a good fighter, knows how to sit a horse); he has a good voice of command (booming voice); he interacted VERY WELL with Howland, he believes in Honor, and it WOULD be a shocker if Ned was the KotLT and NEVER told his own children. Finally, Ned is close with Lyanna and possibly Lyanna approached him and they hatched this plan. Again, its definitely possible.

But Ned fails two major clues (as stated above): he has NO REASON to be a mystery knight or hide his identity. None. Second, he is too big. Ned is not Gregor Clegan, but he’s not small. Average does NOT equal slight.

Therefore, I believe, Ned fails.

I still like the idea it was one of the Children of the Forrest or a creation of theirs. Very Gawain and the Green Knight-ish.

Could be. Again, this fails the “Why-Didn’t-Your-Dad-Tell-You-This†test. I think it would also be out of character for Martin to give us this info and then pull a stunt like that. Again, just a theory.

[Jabberwocky]

This merely gives evidence that it was Ned. After all, they cannot fathom that the Stark childrens own father, who rode to defend Howland's honor, earning his a loyal friend for life, would not tell this story to them?

Exactly!!!!!

We know from the story that Howland stayed in Ned's tent. We know from the story that both Howland and Ned are very devoted to the Old God's.

Ned is still only a teenager. He might not have been all that big compared to others that entered.

As far as hiding, I don't get the impression that the KOTL entered to win. He/she specifically entered to make a point. He/she picked the intended lords. Defeated the intended lords. Made his/her point. Honor being the ransom. It wasn't until Aerys demanded to know the identity, declaring them no friend that there was a reason to hide. Who'd want to be the one that says " oh sorry your Grace that was me"?

If Ned WAS the KotLT, again, seems odd that being in his head he never had a thought about this action.

There are a number of things Ned doesn't think about, but we know they happened from other people's POV. Bran tells of his speaking of Dayne and how sad his father got and wouldn't talk about him anymore. The events at Harrenhall were the starting grounds for everything that came afterwards. That sad events and grief it caused overshadowed the good of that day. Who would want to think about that?

-who to pick? who to pick? I just can't say absolutely one way or the other!

[Rockroi]

We know from the story that Howland stayed in Ned's tent. We know from the story that both Howland and Ned are very devoted to the Old God's.

Same, therefore, could be said about Lyanna.

Ned is still only a teenager. He might not have been all that big compared to others that entered.

Robb is younger at Whispering Woods than Ned was at Harrenhal. Yet NOBODY described Robb as small or slight when he starts. In fact, Cat says the EXACT opposite. Also, there is no evidence to suggest that Ned was small for his age. Again, I think by his mid to late teens, Ned has done all the growing he was going to do. Or at least was 90% grown. Therefore, I still think the description of the KotLT is that of a SIGNIFICANTLY smaller person.

As far as hiding, I don't get the impression that the KOTL entered to win. He/she specifically entered to make a point. He/she picked the intended lords. Defeated the intended lords. Made his/her point. Honor being the ransom. It wasn't until Aerys demanded to know the identity, declaring them no friend that there was a reason to hide. Who'd want to be the one that says " oh sorry your Grace that was me"?

Still does not explain why Ned went as a Mystery Knight. He could make his point just as well sans disguise. Also, does not explain why Ned kept his identity a secret AFTER he defeated the third lord. If his point was made, why hide it (this was before Aerys went ape-shit)?

The events at Harrenhall were the starting grounds for everything that came afterwards. That sad events and grief it caused overshadowed the good of that day. Who would want to think about that?

Because, maybe, it was the starting point of Rhaegar's relationship with Lyanna and ANY story that ned told his children of those events would cause him not only extreme pain and anguish, but could ultimately reveal the identity of Jon Snow, Rahegar's child.

Just saying....

[CelticBrennus]

I agree with the first part. There is no evidence they were armed. However, SHE WAS! Seems to indicate she knew what she was doing. And I disagree they feared for their lives if they struck back. I think if they claimed she attacked and they disarmed her, they would be okay.

Why wouldnt they fear for their lives or if not lives, for some serious punishment? Its the nature of Westerosi society, the higher your rank, the more immune you are from actions of those of lower class.

Do you really think three squires would be willing to beat down the daughter of a Lord Stark? That they would be willing or even concieve of such a thing goes against everything we know of Westerosi society and social norms.

I do not understand this point (in all seriousness, not trying to be a jerk- I do not understand your point).

Sorry, poorly worded, but I intended to point out that there would be little reason for the squires to reveal Lyanna's connection to the Starks. Of course, there would be no mystery since they all dined together at the Feast.

Robb is younger at Whispering Woods than Ned was at Harrenhal. Yet NOBODY described Robb as small or slight when he starts. In fact, Cat says the EXACT opposite. Also, there is no evidence to suggest that Ned was small for his age. Again, I think by his mid to late teens, Ned has done all the growing he was going to do. Or at least was 90% grown. Therefore, I still think the description of the KotLT is that of a SIGNIFICANTLY smaller person.

Recall that Robb is said to be built more from his mothers side, while Jon more like Ned, with Jon being slighter of build. Either way, Ned was never described as being a large man, and like all men, you grow and add most of your adult muscle mass after the age of 15/16.

Basically, all I am saying is that there are credible arguments for a number of people.

[Aplomb]

I'd eliminate Ned as a possibility just for the Laughing Tree herald. He's the last guy to have a smiley face on his shield. He seemed to be pretty reserved and serious even before the Rebellion.

The Laughing Tree as a symbol fits Lyanna best. The whole idea of knights and tourneys is a masculine and southron deal, not a traditional northern custom and certainly not a feminine one. What better way to make a mockery of knighthood and a tourney than for a young northern girl to sneak in, win it, and then slip away without claiming the "honor" and "glory" all the knights were fighting for? That's why the weirwood tree -- the old gods, the north -- is laughing, it's a perfect subversion of the southron idea of knighthood. It just wouldn't be as funny if it were some male Stark or even the heir to Greywater Watch who wore that herald and won.

[Jon Targaryen]

Ned was eighteen at the Harrenhal tourney, for what that's worth.

[Rockroi]

Why wouldnt they fear for their lives or if not lives, for some serious punishment? Its the nature of Westerosi society, the higher your rank, the more immune you are from actions of those of lower class.

If they were attacked, by a woman with a tourney sword, they would be within their rights to defend themselves. Had they had a modicum of grace (which I think we can all agree they did not) they could have disarmed Lyanna and if she said “boo†to Rickard say what occurred and that they only sought to disarm her, not harm her.

And Squires are NOT lowly classes; they usually are from the ranks of other high houses.

Do you really think three squires would be willing to beat down the daughter of a Lord Stark? That they would be willing or even concieve of such a thing goes against everything we know of Westerosi society and social norms.

I never said “beat down†nor would they have to.

Recall that Robb is said to be built more from his mothers side, while Jon more like Ned, with Jon being slighter of build.

No. Robb’s looks are more like that of Cat, not his size. And Jon, while not the Hound, is never described as slight or small; he’s actually about right for his age. Again, the KotLT is most notable because s/he is so small.

Basically, all I am saying is that there are credible arguments for a number of people.

Agreed. I just think that a few fit each suspect, but almost all fit Lyanna. At the VERY least, not a single piece of evidence has arisen that can exclude Lyanna.

Ned was eighteen at the Harrenhal tourney, for what that's worth.

Again, I thought he was 18 when the war started, which would make him 16/17 at Harrenhal. Again, I could be wrong. Obviously, the older he is, the less likely he’s small or slight. However, unless I have something from a book or Martin himself, I’ll assume he was anywhere from 16-18.

[Sarella]

Three squires, who may or may not have been armed, and who knew they were being swung at by a daughter of a Great House. Yeah, I am sure they were really going to take a swing at her. If they actually harmed her, they would be killed or damn close.

You are just making this up. There is no evidence in the text to suggest they were able to withstand her but didn't. It says "the she-wolf laid into the squires and scattered them". Yet you are reading it as "Lyanna swung at the squires but they were too scared to defend themselves because she was a female Stark". It is a stretch for which there is no textual evidence.

And seriously, you don't think a 15-year-old version of Arya could give them a real scare? Arya is half her age and we have seen the damage she can do.

Being a good rider does not mean that you would be able to joust.

No, but according to Jaime, good horsemanship is the majority of it. Being one of the best jousters in the seven kingdoms, I think he would know.

Why would what happened with the squires have a single solitary connection to the Laughing Knight whatsoever?

TKotLT unhorsed three knights. S/he then said "teach your squires honour". S/he then dissappeared. Rhaegar was sent to find him/her. Of course he will start by questioning the squires of the three knights. e.g. "Have you done anything dishonourable lately?" I don't think they would lie to the crown prince, especially one as respected as Rhaegar. And if they didn't tell him the truth for the sake of honour, I think they would be itching to get Lyanna in trouble for attacking them, and tell him for the sake of revenge.

[Sarella]

If tKotLT was Ned, and the king demanded he reveal himself, Ned would have revealed himself. I don't think there is any disputing that - it is just the way Ned is.

Any of the other Stark men, or Howland, would have revealed themselves. Nobody other than the Starks or Howland had a reason to teach the squires of those specific three knights a lesson about honour.

So it was either Lyanna, or it was some mystery bystander who saw the incident with the squires, Howland and Lyanna, thought to teach the squires a lesson, had a really good reason to conceal their identity, and was short of stature. Since the latter is ridiculously unlikely and wouldn't add much to the story, my money is on Lyanna.

[Lord O' Bones]

Recall that Robb is said to be built more from his mothers side, while Jon more like Ned, with Jon being slighter of build.

No. Robb’s looks are more like that of Cat, not his size. And Jon, while not the Hound, is never described as slight or small; he’s actually about right for his age. Again, the KotLT is most notable because s/he is so small.

For the record, I believe Lyanna is the KotLT. But I think CB is right about this. Robb wouldn't have inherited Catelyn's traits, he would take after Hoster on her side. Hoster Tully by all acounts was a big sturdy guy before he got sick.

[Dacey]

The KotLT is described as "short of stature," not slight or slender. And Jon is slender but not short - here's the first descriptions of him and Robb from AGOT:

[Robb] was big and broad and growing every day, with his mother's coloring...

Notice it's both big and broad - those are two separate traits, so "big" here seems to mean Robb is taller than average. Also, it says Robb has his mother's coloring, but not that his size or other features come from the Tully side.

[Jon] was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast.

This is all about the physical contrasts between Robb and Jon, and height is a very noticeable characteristic, so if Jon were significantly shorter than Robb, I'd be very surprised that it wasn't mentioned here. Since it's not, I assume they're about the same height - so a bit taller than the average 14-year-old boy, but not by all that much. Based on the evidence I'd say Ned was around average height, maybe a little taller, maybe not.

The prisoner is also described as "not much taller than Robb" - so at 14 Robb and Jon are shorter than most full-grown men, but not by too much. The Citadel FAQ says Ned would have been 4 years older at Harrenhal and, presumably, 4 years of growth taller as well.

Now that's not hard evidence, to be sure. But we can say it's a fact that if Ned's supposed to be significantly shorter than average, that point is never made very clear. And in the KotLT story, it does seem clear that "short of stature" is meant to be one of our clues as to the Knight's identity. Which, IMO, means Martin would not be vague about that person's shortness - that particular kind of sloppiness would be unlike him.

I still like the idea it was one of the Children of the Forrest or a creation of theirs. Very Gawain and the Green Knight-ish.

This was my first thought when I read the story. And I am glad to see it being brought up; I think it's more likely than any of the other suspects except Lyanna.

That said, I do think a Child of the Forest or other such being is way, way less likely than Lyanna.

Couple reasons. The first is obvious: this is a very low-magic fantasy series, so all other things being equal, I think we should go for non-supernatural explanations wherever possible.

Beyond that, though, what do we know about the Children of the Forest? Not a lot - they were short, they worshipped the old gods, males and females hunted together with weirwood and obsidian weapons, they used green magic...and they got totally owned when they tried to fight humans with horses and metal weapons. If they can magic up champion jousters, that sure would have been handy a couple thousand years ago, huh?

Oh, you can come up with explanations. Maybe it's a miracle of the old gods (though, again, one wonders why the old gods didn't do this back when their worshippers *really* needed it). Maybe there's a hidden civilization of Children somewhere that's assimilated human cultural ideas, and has gotten their hands on some horses and the secret of blacksmithing, and they've gotten the hang of this whole mounted combat deal but for some reason are not yet ready to launch the invasion to take back Westeros. Seriously, you can make up any number of possibilities, but it's still very weird; we know so little about the Children, and yet this still would manage to fly in the face of one of the very few things we do know. Until some other evidence comes up, I've got to call it really, really unlikely.

[Guest Other-in-law]

I'd eliminate Ned as a possibility just for the Laughing Tree herald. He's the last guy to have a smiley face on his shield. He seemed to be pretty reserved and serious even before the Rebellion.

Excellent point. From what we've seen of the Stark kid's personalities, Brandon and Lyanna seem to have the most ebullient personalities. And it could hardly have been Brandon.

[Jon Targaryen]

However, unless I have something from a book or Martin himself, I’ll assume he was anywhere from 16-18.

It was the year of the false spring, and he was eighteen again, down from the Eyrie to the tourney at Harrenhal.

AGOT USTB p.526

[Rockroi]

Jon Targ:

Thank you for posting that info. Obviously, it only strengthens my argument that Ned could not have been confused with a small person as he was 18 and, by all accounts, a man grown.

[Artanaro]

I demand a ruling here. What is considered short of stature? :-). Until I know what short of stature is, I can't say whether Eddard is short or not. Please clarify. Thanks in advance.

Artanaro

[Ran]

If a character is called short or small in the books, then I'd guess they'd be considered short.

Ned is never noted as either short or tall, which leads most to assume he's of an average height (height averages in Westeros seem to be rather similar to modern Western averages, so that'd be 5'9" - 5'10"). He _does_, however, call Howland Reed "the little crannogman", so that rather implies he's tall enough in comparison to Howland that he considers the crannogman "little".

[Artanaro]

If a character is called short or small in the books, then I'd guess they'd be considered short.

Ned is never noted as either short or tall, which leads most to assume he's of an average height (height averages in Westeros seem to be rather similar to modern Western averages, so that'd be 5'9" - 5'10"). He _does_, however, call Howland Reed "the little crannogman", so that rather implies he's tall enough in comparison to Howland that he considers the crannogman "little".

Thank you Ran. I always enjoy your posts, though I'm never quite sure, which side you're for . But as with your example, in having Ned compare himself to Howland Reed, height is based on relation to the people around you. So, "short of stature" needs to be examined for two cases.

1. In relation to other knights.

2. In relation to other people in Westeros.

Howland Reed fits the category for both, but the question is in what context was the narrator using "short." Now comes the question, are knights typically taller than peasants? Well, most knights are from the ruling class, so they would be better fed than their countrymen. This could lead to some added height. Do tall men make better warriors, and therefore better knights? Possibly, but would this mean those short of stature would be culled from achieving their knighthood? That is also possible. That would be the main reason for a significant height difference between knights and regular people in Westeros.

But is there any concrete evidence for any of these interpretations? No. But I'll use Ran's post as basis for the facts. Here's what we know.

1. Someone is short of stature when they are called short, as is the case of Howland Reed.

2. Someone is tall of stature when they are specifically referred to as such (Sandor, Stannis, Robert Baratheon).

So, does that mean anyone who meets neither criteria is average? I don't agree. The tall characters referenced are considerably tall (over six foot). The short characters noted are considerably short (Howland and Tyrion). What we do not know is the context the narrator was using. There are more short of stature people in the book than just Howland and Tyrion, but where are they referenced? Until you can answer a finite cutoff and know what Eddard's height was at the time of the story, this is not direct proof against Ned as the knight of the laughing tree. Circumstancial evidence, yes. But not direct.

Artanaro

[Stratonice]

I would think that a person who was short (in any sense of the word at all) would have trouble wielding a sword like Ice properly. In one of his first chapters in AGoT ( I think the first) Bran reflects that the sword is loger than Robb is tall (and Robb is described as tall).

What constitutes as a tall 14 year old might be debatable, but I would think (though I don't really know much about swordfights) that a sword that big would be rather difficult to use for a person who's short enough for his/her hight to actually be remarked upon.