Not A Big Fan Of Targs...

[Devil Hanzo]

I enjoyed reading this synopsis. It is, indeed, a frustrating turn of the events, for those who, like me, do nothave a liking for Dany's character.

The thing is, I am highly uncaring as to who has the rightful claim, or if Dany is sun and stars and the beacon for all women in Westeros. When I read about her, I don't like her, neither her way of thinking, nor her much advertised accomplishements. Yes, it partially has to do with her consorting with Dothraki and enjoying it. And yes, her attitudes are irritating. But I also experience unexplicable aversion at the idea that Dany can and will conquer Westeros and rule it. It feels wrong somehow.

Yeah thats how i feel.

Sad fact is, it will happen. I dont hate martin for it, she certainly has alot of positive qualities compared to Tywin and cersie and the freaking greyjoys. But it will bug me none the less.

She had changed alot, but i really would love to see some self critisism on her part. Brienne, Tyroin, Jaime, Eddard, Sansa, Jon have all looked at themselves and said essentially to themselves: "Man, im really flawed. I need to change so and so about myself."

I used to hate Sansa. Infact, the way Dany thinks now is alot like how Sansa used to think. Only difference is that Sansa saught a perfect husband prince in her vanity, Dany seeks a kingdom instead. But thier patterns of thought are the same.

Dany believes she will be a great queen, yet she is having trouble with her conquered lands. Infact, everytime Dany makes a 'good' dicision; most often she isn't the one to come up with it, it's her adivisors.

I read the hedge knight comic. In that book,one of the Targs fights along side Dunk.

Dany is without a doubt a good hearted person despite her faults. But remember in the teaser chapter for DANCE WITH DRAGONS how that little kid lost everything and she had 'no choice' but to declare all crimes before the overtrhough pardoned? She is compassionate, but not like others.

It seems to me that the Targ who helped Dunk(forgot his name) would never do that.

So what makes her so special?

She WILL unite westeros, of that i have no doubt.

But, it will not be because of anything sepecial about her, it will be because:::::

1) She has three dragons that can wipe out thousands in a single breath.

2)When she arrives, the realm will be so badly ravaged that seeing a symbol of the targaryans, people will think ''HOPE".

essentially, she will unite westeros because her birth and appearance is a symbol.

But does she herself do anything good? no.

If i were a ruler like Dany, I would not be able to rule nearyly HALF so well as her.

But atleast i am introspective enough to admit that i would suck.

She doesnt ever see any real flaw in herself other then ''i wish i had to do that, but it had to be done.' Why did it have to be done?

[Blood of the Dragon]

Why is it that all the women I have heard dislike Daenerys? This is not a generalization at all, and would like someone to prove me wrong but so far it has been the case.

And Devil Hanzo, the reason she will become queen will be the following:

As the last remaining trueborn Targaryen, she is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne.

END OF STORY. Your reasons are all correct, but this to me is the most basic one. The people support her BECAUSE she is a Targaryen, and her dragons hatched (in my opinion) BECAUSE she is a Targaryen. Legally, she has the ONLY claim. It is almost indisputable.

[Red Rex]

Why is it that all the women I have heard dislike Daenerys? This is not a generalization at all, and would like someone to prove me wrong but so far it has been the case.

And Devil Hanzo, the reason she will become queen will be the following:

As the last remaining trueborn Targaryen, she is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne.

END OF STORY. Your reasons are all correct, but this to me is the most basic one. The people support her BECAUSE she is a Targaryen, and her dragons hatched (in my opinion) BECAUSE she is a Targaryen. Legally, she has the ONLY claim. It is almost indisputable.

Haha I agree that women mostly dislike Dany, but then women are caty havent you heard, and the one thing other women hate most is some woman whose incredibly beautiful and rich (they cant compete sterotypically)

On the other hand not just ANY pretty strong willed girl could BIRTH DRAGONS that proves shes got something besides her army working for her

[Devil Hanzo]

She is the rightful ruler of the throne? Essentially, the first men are the TRUE rulers of westeros, them or the children of the forest. Essentially, all she is is the blood of someone who over took another persons land.

If Prince charles walked into the states/canada/russia and said: Do what i say, i have the blood of countless kings running through my viens, my ancestors intermarried with other kings of europe, i am the rightful ruler of you. Obey me.

I would say 'Go to hell!'

And so what if she can birth dragons? The meagi can see the future, and thier nto special.

Watch dragon ball, countless charecters can fly and blow buildings up.....but so what!! PIccalo surpasses super saiyan level one, and at just super saiyan one you can blow up planets...with less power.

Now what makes him special? Nothing.

What makes Dany special? Nothing.

She birthed dragons because of sacrifice.

I will admit, she is a strong willed, strong girl(mentally and emotionally)

But dispite this, she fell in love with a man who raped and murdered countless lives.

[Bad Wolf]

If Prince charles walked into the states/canada/russia and said: Do what i say, i have the blood of countless kings running through my viens, my ancestors intermarried with other kings of europe, i am the rightful ruler of you. Obey me.

Well, actually, the English monarch is still Canada's head of state. 'Queen of Canada' is one of Elizabeth II's titles. Not that it's really anything but ceremonial.

Comparing Westeros to contemporary life is a faulty analogy, however. We have a centuries-old tradition of democracy and all that good stuff. In Westeros, however, they pretty much expect to have a monarch. The smallfolk bow to lords who bow to the king. There's a concept of people having a right to rule others because of their blood. And that's a concept you have to accept in this setting. The Westerosi are not going to revolt overnight. And to some degree all noble characters think like this. They don't beat us over the head with it, but they tend to think they're better than a peasant. They're not going out to till fields. They accept their birthrights.

For the record, I'm quite female and I love Dany. I don't think she's perfect, but I think she's on the road to becoming a ruler who can be both clever and compassionate. And, given the setting, I do not have a problem with her pride and sense of entitlement.

[Devil Hanzo]

I will admit, she is the only one who can ever hope to bring stability to westeros.

That said, i still dont like her

EDIT:

Three things about her:

1) How can you possibly love a man like Khal Drogo? I mean, he kills and tortures and is essentially an asshole. He is nice to Dany because she is pretty and became his wife(she also charmed him with her charisma, got to give her props) but he was soo.....brutal.

Infact, Mirri Maz Duur's reasons for killing him are KIND OF justified. Because of him she was gang raped, the people she took care of and healed were murdered infront of her. They killed because of conquest.(that said, she was waaay out of line by killing Dany's baby. That was just low)

2)Her sense of entitlement is...disturbing. Hitler believed the world was entitled to the german people, and even his belief was somewhat justified considering what happened to germany after world war one.

Every other major charecter seems to question the conventions of thier society but her. Even Eddard Stark, mr ''duty, duty, duty,'' questioned the role of entitlement. He never wanted to inherite winterfell, but out of duty he did. He questioned.

Jaime questioned his survitude to Aerys.

Cersie, as much as a bitch she is, questions why woman are unable to do things men are. Arya is the same.

3)People keep talking about how brilliant she is, when she just listens to advice and acts on what others say. True, the advisors of a king are important, but she rarely every comes up with and just goes with it. And if she is such a great ruler, why cant she hadle one retarded city?

Maybe im biased. Whenever i see a charecter in fantasy that is decended of a king i somehow just dont like them. Everything is just handed down to them.

I love Guts(gatsu, Gatts) from berserk because he was born a peasant, his mother gave birth to him while she was getting hanged; and he clawed and murdered his way through life.

He was born in shit but showed the world that his birth was meaningless.

BUT THATS JUST ME. I will be the first to admit that she is a good person, despite her faults, and if she lived in real life, i probably would get charmed by her, maybe even fall in love with her type.

She is the only one with the background to really truly get peace and settle this story. Her blood will unite the nation, as will her dragons

I wonder how Dany will take care of the faith though?

[Marth]

Lord Caspen: I'm trying to better understand your argument; by your logic, wouldn't any surviving descendants of the Andal kings be the "lawful" rulers of their respective territories?

[Random221B]

Lord Caspen: I'm trying to better understand your argument; by your logic, wouldn't any surviving descendants of the Andal kings be the "lawful" rulers of their respective territories?

Not if those kings bent the knee to the conqueror. When they bent the knee, they were in effect giving up their rights as kings, and allowing themselves to become vassal lords of the Targaryens instead. Once the kings chose to give up their crowns and acknowlege Aegon as their ruler, they forfeited any claim their descendants had to those kingships.

That's partly why there can be an argument made that the North seceding and crowning Robb king *was* lawful. Because Robb is the descendant of King Torrhen Stark, who bent his knee to the Targaryens. From then on, the Starks had no lawful claim to be kings of the North under Targaryen rule. But once the Targaryens were no longer the rulers of Westeros, the North could make a claim that the Starks bent the knee to the Targaryens, not the Lannisters, and thus they had the right to reclaim their crown.

It's a fuzzy situation, but the arguement *could* be made.

Best,

~~~~Random

[Jon Targaryen]

That's partly why there can be an argument made that the North seceding and crowning Robb king *was* lawful. Because Robb is the descendant of King Torrhen Stark, who bent his knee to the Targaryens. From then on, the Starls had no lawful claim to be kings of the North under Targaryen rule. But once the Targaryens were no longer the rulers of Westeros, the North could make a claim that the Starks bent the knee to the Targaryens, not the Lannisters, and thus they had the right to reclaim their crown.

It's a fuzzy situation, but the arguement *could* be made.

The counter to that argument is that Robert and by extension Joffrey claimed legitimacy through Targaryen blood and were just an extension of the Targ line.

[Rockroi]

This thread should just be re-titled “Every Conversation We Have Ever Had on These Boards.†This thread has EVERYTHING..and PICTURES TOO!!!!:

I like the Targs as characters and as living plot devices. Great sense of foreboding and hope in EVERYTHING they do.

And it’s a coin toss:

Good Targs:

Aegon I

Maegor I (built a castle and seemed to have rid the realm of some pests)

Jaehaerys I

Baelor I (Only went downhill after his uncle apparently poisoned him)

Viserys II (ruled the kingdom without being called “Kingâ€)

Baelor Breakspear (Hand, greatest knight of his day)

Daeron II (Probably the Best King in Westeroes History)

Aegon V

Rheagar Targaryen (Crown Prince…THIS CHANGES if he raped and kidnapped Lyanna)

Dany Targ

Maester Aemon

Bad Targ Monarchs but Not Necessarily Crazy

Aegon III

Daeron I

Aegon IV (Unworthy and Robert-lite)

Jury Still Out, but probably not crazy:

Aenys I

Viserys I

Aerys I

Maekar I

Jaehaerys II

Bat Shit Crazy.

Maegor I (Can’t it be both?)

Aegon II (I think “Feeding Maester to Dragon†Qualifies)

Aerion Brightflame

Rheagel

Aerys II (Worst. King. Ever.)

Viserys III

There were PLENTY of really good kings. And some pretty horrible monsters. The Targs are sort of split on this issue. Dany seems GREAT. But her kids? And if John Snow is a Targ…

Anyway, other comments I wanted to note:

Robert was a drunken fuck machine…

I hear that’s what’s going on his tombstone.

“Robert Baratheon, The First of His Name, Hammer of the Trident, Drunken Fuck Machine.â€

Viserys would have made a better King than Joffrey at any rate.

I remember when this comment alone would have provoked a rant-a-thon. I think that Viserys would have made a worse King than Joff due to ZERO restraints at all. But hey, I always thought Viserys had a nice streak of tragedy in him so I can see your point.

Some have said that Robert was at least better than Aerys, but was he truly?

See? This type of debate is awesome. Who was the worse King? Its just fun.

I think the guy who flambéed a Lord of a MAJOR house, killed his heir, then demanded the head of ANOTHER major house and ANOTHER heir; started a war, started to lose it and his MASTER plan to win it? Light the city on fire. I don’t know- it HARDLY gets worse than that.

Was Aerys really mad?

PRICELESS!!! For starters, when you grow your fingernails and hair because you are afraid of razors; when you start chopping tongues out of people’s mouths; when you immolate counselors and Hands because they disagree with you; when you lose your shit over the smallest thing… I don’t know- Call me Crazy for Calling Aerys Crazy.

Targs lost their rule and she has no more claim to the Iron Throne than … Jon Snow up on the Wall.

Trying to be Ironic, right?

Dany’s claim is in her ability to win her conquest. That works in this world. And in the RW. Just ask Iraq,

I’ll refrain from the counter-attack against the Dany-bashers who see something that is not there and are blind to all the things in here that are there. And if she were a guy, IMHO, those people would LOVE the character, much in the same way they love Robb Stark.

Good thread.

[Ashara]

Why is it that all the women I have heard dislike Daenerys? This is not a generalization at all, and would like someone to prove me wrong but so far it has been the case.

Oh, I am sure that plenty of females like Dany, I know at least one. I think that readers of both gendres might respond badly to the type that has it all, whose defeats turn into victories in a blink of an eye and who wins everything just because she is _born_ that way and because auithor wills it. Good characters in pretty much every book have a "safety" cusion, which help them land safely where the "bad" characters suffer or cover themselves with infamy.

Martin gives his "good" guys very thin cusion. To all of them, but Dany.

It's never her fault. She always somehow end up with her hands clean, even if she is wed to a creep ('cause conveniently he falls tenderly in love with his little wife instead of using her the way Dothraki usually do), her brother gets killed (because, you know, he conveniently deserves it, being a monster), a traitor conveniently falls in love with her, and would do anything to win her favor, some tricky merchant gives her dragon eggs that hatch just when she is about to lose what influence she has, and the tricky slave-traders are conveniently stupid and greedy not to see through her little ruse, and everything just goes her way. Everyone suffers, but little Dany.

I’ll refrain from the counter-attack against the Dany-bashers who see something that is not there and are blind to all the things in here that are there. And if she were a guy, IMHO, those people would LOVE the character, much in the same way they love Robb Stark.

Robb (and Raeghar) has that which Dany does not - an opera-like appeal of a fated, tragically dying hero who is set to lose. If any female in ASoIF has it, it is Brienne, in my view. If Dany dies on her way to Westeros, or sometime in mid-flight and does not win the Most Important Battle, and the entire world (led by the characters we all love and care about; Jon hugging Jaime, and Tyrion kissing Sansa, Arya holding Sandor's hand) does not sink to their knees crying happy tears at the sight of her dismounting from her dragon #1, well, I would like her then as much as I like Robb.

As for being blind, I think that part of the dislike -and no, it is not bashing(!)- is that she is burdened and filled to the brims with "glorious deeds" before she even out of her teens! The author's desire to present her as "good" and "incredibly cool", in my view, harms her rather than helps her to find her way into my heart. The whole world adores her, even those who have not met her yet. We are pretty much set before the fact that one way or another Dany shall win it all.

Well, let me be the one who does not like such a character, and who feels that "in place of a Dark Lord they shall have the Queen, not terrible, but beatiful. All shall love her and despair."

[Maia]

Martin gives his "good" guys very thin cusion. To all of them, but Dany.

It's never her fault. She always somehow end up with her hands clean,

Funny, I always felt the same way about Robb and to a degree Jon. They got handed they magical wolves who saved their bacon more than once, they got into positions of command because of their blood, they got their share of lucky breaks, they had a JUST CAUSE with a capital J, etc. And when people under Robb's command commited various atrocities, it was never his fault either .

[Ashara]

Funny, I always felt the same way about Robb and to a degree Jon. They got handed they magical wolves who saved their bacon more than once, they got into positions of command because of their blood, they got their share of lucky breaks, they had a JUST CAUSE with a capital J, etc. And when people under Robb's command commited various atrocities, it was never his fault either

That is correct to a degree, but both Robb and Jon lose their honor and make bad choices that lead to disasters. Robb gets his cusion pulled from under him and lands right onto his royal... well... we know how. Robb executes a man, when we all wish he would not. Jon has his cusion pulled as well a few times, ending up killing Quorin, not being able to keep his girl, scarred, he has to work to become accepted among the others, his position is won by a lie, there are people who seriously hate him, and he is plenty non-heroic in a few scenes. Plus, the AFFC glimpses -Aemon does die as a direct result of his decsision- shows him as shedding much of his baby-white fluff of innocence.

[theFastPenguin]

Oh, I am sure that plenty of females like Dany, I know at least one. I think that readers of both gendres might respond badly to the type that has it all, whose defeats turn into victories in a blink of an eye and who wins everything just because she is _born_ that way and because auithor wills it. Good characters in pretty much every book have a "safety" cusion, which help them land safely where the "bad" characters suffer or cover themselves with infamy.

Martin gives his "good" guys very thin cusion. To all of them, but Dany.

It's never her fault. She always somehow end up with her hands clean, even if she is wed to a creep ('cause conveniently he falls tenderly in love with his little wife instead of using her the way Dothraki usually do), her brother gets killed (because, you know, he conveniently deserves it, being a monster), a traitor conveniently falls in love with her, and would do anything to win her favor, some tricky merchant gives her dragon eggs that hatch just when she is about to lose what influence she has, and the tricky slave-traders are conveniently stupid and greedy not to see through her little ruse, and everything just goes her way. Everyone suffers, but little Dany.

Robb (and Raeghar) has that which Dany does not - an opera-like appeal of a fated, tragically dying hero who is set to lose. If any female in ASoIF has it, it is Brienne, in my view. If Dany dies on her way to Westeros, or sometime in mid-flight and does not win the Most Important Battle, and the entire world (led by the characters we all love and care about; Jon hugging Jaime, and Tyrion kissing Sansa, Arya holding Sandor's hand) does not sink to their knees crying happy tears at the sight of her dismounting from her dragon #1, well, I would like her then as much as I like Robb.

As for being blind, I think that part of the dislike -and no, it is not bashing(!)- is that she is burdened and filled to the brims with "glorious deeds" before she even out of her teens! The author's desire to present her as "good" and "incredibly cool", in my view, harms her rather than helps her to find her way into my heart. The whole world adores her, even those who have not met her yet. We are pretty much set before the fact that one way or another Dany shall win it all.

Well, let me be the one who does not like such a character, and who feels that "in place of a Dark Lord they shall have the Queen, not terrible, but beatiful. All shall love her and despair."

Come oooooooooooooooooooooooooon!!! Dragon babe! Whoooooo!

[Marth]

Not if those kings bent the knee to the conqueror. When they bent the knee, they were in effect giving up their rights as kings, and allowing themselves to become vassal lords of the Targaryens instead. Once the kings chose to give up their crowns and acknowlege Aegon as their ruler, they forfeited any claim their descendants had to those kingships.

Okay, but what about the kings that didn't bend knee, ie: Harren the Black. Surely the Conquerer didn't wipe out every single person with a drop of Harren's blood? Or what about the Gardeners? Aegon killed the Gardener king and appointed the Tyrells, who then bent knee, lords of the Reach. But the Tyrells were not the "lawful" lords of anything, any living person with Gardener blood should be the ruler of the Reach.

I would also argue that, by breaking the feudal contract, Aerys forfeited his house's claim to the throne.

[theFastPenguin]

Okay, but what about the kings that didn't bend knee, ie: Harren the Black. Surely the Conquerer didn't wipe out every single person with a drop of Harren's blood? Or what about the Gardeners? Aegon killed the Gardener king and appointed the Tyrells, who then bent knee, lords of the Reach. But the Tyrells were not the "lawful" lords of anything, any living person with Gardener blood should be the ruler of the Reach.

I would also argue that, by breaking the feudal contract, Aerys forfeited his house's claim to the throne.

Not really. When you get right down to it, contracts and blood rights really don't matter that much. Once everyone says you're king, then you're king, even if in order to make them say that you had to kill half of them with a bunch of fiery dragons. There's no one person who has this inate 'king' trait within their DNA. Unless there is, which would suck.

[Lord Mord]

That's partly why there can be an argument made that the North seceding and crowning Robb king *was* lawful. Because Robb is the descendant of King Torrhen Stark, who bent his knee to the Targaryens. From then on, the Starls had no lawful claim to be kings of the North under Targaryen rule. But once the Targaryens were no longer the rulers of Westeros, the North could make a claim that the Starks bent the knee to the Targaryens, not the Lannisters, and thus they had the right to reclaim their crown.

It's a fuzzy situation, but the arguement *could* be made.

Random,

You've got it. I would argue the situation is not fuzzy, but I can see the argument as quite strong, to a point.

Given that Robert is not the rightful king by law, any oaths sworn to him on that basis are meaningless, and at any time any kingdom or vassal could break allegiance with him, and be in the right -- but only so long as their allegiance was then sworn to the dragon, instead. Anything else is, in the cae of the North, to forswear Torrhen's oath, too, to their dishonor.

[Blood of the Dragon]

Well, in response to the Daenerys subtopic, I don't see how anyone can like Robb because he is a valient hero or died such a death. He died because of his OWN STUPIDITY. Call it what you want, that doesn't change what happened. HOW many times was he warned about the Frey's honor, and losing it? What did he do? He went and married someone else. It boggles my mind, why on EARTH would he do that (or Westeros for that matter)? He died a hilarious death, one I thought he deserved. Whether the Freys should have done it, I don't know. But his death was his fault. People who make mistakes like that need to be more careful, and use their brains.

[Rockroi]

Blood of the Dragon:

Completely agree.

I think the Dany hatred spawns from many factors (her sex being just one). I think her success is also something people do not like. The fact is Dany had LESS than nothing- she had a bad name, a losing family, an insane brother. And that's before we started reading. I have already explained this in other threads. I think Dany has done amazing things in very ingenious ways. Martin's writing has never been better than in his Dany chapters.

But how could ANYONE claim Robb had it tougher? A ready-made army? The loyalty of EVERY SINGLE Northern House (at least in the beginning)? Major alliances right from the get-go? How about that dire wolf (has done just as much for Robb as Dany's dragons have done for her)? How about the fact that his enemies (save Tywin) were incompitent? Robb had to work REALLY hard to blow his winning.

And yet...

I also do not buy that Robb had a credible claim or a legtimate kingdom. For starters, his allegiance was to the Throne. The fact that his father was slain AFTER admitting treason (remember that little detail?) is not exactly a perfect reason to claim the North. The Torren Stark issue is rendered moot when you consider that Ned Stark swore loyalty to Robert after Robert became King. Kinda blows that whole theory right out of the water (especially after Ned became Hand and all).

Robb was a rebel Lord. He acted as such and was treated as such.

[Mutethunder]

yeah... Red Wedding was very funny