Not A Big Fan Of Targs...

[Lord Mord]

Okay, but what about the kings that didn't bend knee, ie: Harren the Black. Surely the Conquerer didn't wipe out every single person with a drop of Harren's blood? Or what about the Gardeners? Aegon killed the Gardener king and appointed the Tyrells, who then bent knee, lords of the Reach. But the Tyrells were not the "lawful" lords of anything, any living person with Gardener blood should be the ruler of the Reach.

Marth,

What you're forgetting here, though, is that while all the Gadener heirs may not have been wiped out, they nevertheless forwent claiming a crown, as did the heirs of Harren the Black. Once all the heirs have sworn fealty, their own heirs are bound to the same crown as their forebears, per law, and may not then rise up to claim a crown of their own.

If there were still renegade Gardeners out there, the last of them gave up their rights to a throne by never claiming it, or else deliberately abdicated those rights by swearing fealty, long before Aerys II. Since his reign was thus legitimized by both custom and decree, then so is the reign of his own blood, i.e., his children, including the last of them, Daenerys.

I would also argue that, by breaking the feudal contract, Aerys forfeited his house's claim to the throne.

This I can understand, but the contract these lords make concerning the not taking up of arms is a contract with the realm at large, not merely with any one king or dynasty. The oath protects the other law-abiding citizens who might have no quarrel with Robert or Jon Arryn, but would die to protect the lord they've sworn to uphold. Aerys broke his contract, and these others, like Gerold Hightower or the people of King's Landing, did not. Robert's duty to them should have compelled him to passive resistance -- neither giving himself up willingly to certain death by accpeting Aerys's summons, nor yet taking aggression on people who never harmed him.

Is this a spin on the contract at which Robert would likely never have guessed? Yes, but only because he presumed the right to kill, which he ought not to have done.

This apparently sets my two philosophies at odds -- on the one hand a Conquest can be justified after the fact, and on the other, bloodshed is never justifiable. My perspective is this: Robert ought not to have claimed the throne at all. However, if one is going to make the erroneous judgment he was right to make the claim, by whatever justification, then one must accept that in order for his rule to be righteous, it must conform to the law as well as to custom, which is to say the fealty of vassals. That said, he can only rule legally when the intervening heirs (Viserys and Daenerys) capitulate or die. As at no time during his reign did this happen, he cannot rule legally, therefore he cannot rule by rights. Aegon did not have that problem -- all the heirs died or capitulated, giving him the right to rule their kingdoms.

[Kingslayer]

Surely the Conquerer didn't wipe out every single person with a drop of Harren's blood?

Every male, apparently. His blood lives through the female line (Maron Volmark is his "heir" at the time of AFfC), but remember that House Hoare lost its right to rule entirely: the ironborn raised House Greyjoy to rule over them.

Or what about the Gardeners? Aegon killed the Gardener king and appointed the Tyrells, who then bent knee, lords of the Reach. But the Tyrells were not the "lawful" lords of anything, any living person with Gardener blood should be the ruler of the Reach.

It would seem that every male Gardener died on the Field of Fire. The Tyrells do have Gardener blood (as do several other Reach lords).

[Ahimsa]

I think some people might not like Dany because her story, until very recently, has been so utterly removed from the rest of the story. There is a bit of resentment that they have to read through her antics while important stuff is going on in Westeros. It's either that, or because she's a self-righteous little snot.

[Devil Hanzo]

PRICELESS!!! For starters, when you grow your fingernails and hair because you are afraid of razors; when you start chopping tongues out of people’s mouths; when you immolate counselors and Hands because they disagree with you; when you lose your shit over the smallest thing… I don’t know- Call me Crazy for Calling Aerys Crazy.

QUOTE

Let us also not forget how pathetlically he died at jaime's sword. I loved reading that, it said: ''retribution''

On topic of Dany compared to Robb and Jon.........

Rob, i dont like. He is just like Dany, i dont like him for the same reasons. He believes all is entitles to him and from what we have seen, has not really regretted anything exept the killing of Karstark.

Jon is constantly critisizing himself, contstantly dealing with his bastardness, constantly questioning.

And most important: HE DOES NOT WANT THE POSITION OF COMMANDER and he wanted winterfell only because it was a sign of opposition to his bastardism. And even then, he turned it down.

Dany doesn't. Infact, in the end of feast for crows, when we get a DANCE OF DRAGONS preview, Dany blows off some kid who's mom got raped and father was killed by two slaves.

She thinks about him, but does not show any thoughts 'i wish it could be different' or 'i wish i could help him'

Infact, all she says is 'the harpy something or other'. I mean, what the hell?

[Jon Targaryen]

It would seem that every male Gardener died on the Field of Fire. The Tyrells do have Gardener blood (as do several other Reach lords).

The Florents claim to have a better claim to the Gardener line.

[Kingslayer]

The Florents claim to have a better claim to the Gardener line.

Yes, but the point was that they do have a claim to Highgarden.

[Devil Hanzo]

blood line pisses me off.....

And what is up with the Lan the trickster? How can lannisters be so happy and proud to be the ancestors of a guy who stole his claim?

[theFastPenguin]

blood line pisses me off.....

And what is up with the Lan the trickster? How can lannisters be so happy and proud to be the ancestors of a guy who stole his claim?

This whole 'claim' thing is just totally ridiculous. Yes, in theory, it's very nice to be able to say 'my dad was king here fifty years ago so i'm king now' or 'i'm related to some guy who was king two thousand years ago, that makes me king' but in reality, if the person opposing you has a bigger army than it doesn't matter if they're a giant chipmunk, they can still rule.

[Nightstar]

I will admit, she is the only one who can ever hope to bring stability to westeros.

That said, i still dont like her

EDIT:

Three things about her:

1) How can you possibly love a man like Khal Drogo?

2)Her sense of entitlement is...disturbing.

3)People keep talking about how brilliant she is, when she just listens to advice and acts on what others say. True, the advisors of a king are important, but she rarely every comes up with and just goes with it. And if she is such a great ruler, why cant she hadle one retarded city?

I like Dany; I admire her courage.

And to respond to your other points:

1. I doubt she truly loved Khal Drogo; he gave her sexual pleasure and treated her well, so she developed a crush on him. But that's not love.

2. I think just about every character from a noble house has a similar sense of entitlement: Cersei does, for one.

3. Knowing when and how to take advice is the most important quality in a good leader. It's the people who refuse to listen to anyone else who get into trouble.

As for not being able to handle Mereen, that is due to a basic cultural difference that I don't think she can overcome. Her mindset is based on the values of Westeros; she doesn't comprehend the society in which she is living. (Take the issue of slavery; Dany sees it as inherently evil, and it is. But many slaves were actually better off under the old system).

Best thing for her to do now is to cut her losses, and head for Westeros without further delay.

Otherwise she is apt to lose everything.

[Lord Mord]

This whole 'claim' thing is just totally ridiculous. Yes, in theory, it's very nice to be able to say 'my dad was king here fifty years ago so i'm king now' or 'i'm related to some guy who was king two thousand years ago, that makes me king' but in reality, if the person opposing you has a bigger army than it doesn't matter if they're a giant chipmunk, they can still rule.

Fast Penguin,

You're absolutely correct.

The only reason the subject of descent even comes up, though, is that there are those who criticize Dany saying she's entitled to rule Westeros, because they feel that her "right" as such is specious or nonexistent. Insofar as any right may be had at all, however, that is demonstrably false -- of anyone with a claim, hers is the only one backed by any consistent concept of legitimacy which is not merely "might makes right."

[Deaf Dick]

I think some people might not like Dany because her story, until very recently, has been so utterly removed from the rest of the story. There is a bit of resentment that they have to read through her antics while important stuff is going on in Westeros. It's either that, or because she's a self-righteous little snot.

Mark me in the first column. It's a matter of taste for me. I just don't find the areas outside of Westeros as interesting (yet?). As far as Dany herself goes, I like her just fine.

[Rockroi]

I will never understand the Dany resentment insofar as it attaches to the character herself.

I can DEFINATLEY understand the disconect between Dany and Westeroes. However, Martin is subtely connecting the two stories more and more and HAS HAD them connected since the beginning. The chasm is not as vast as you intimate.

I find all other attacks on Dany to be erroneous. For starters, Dany displays aboslutely ZERO "dilusions" of entitlement that were tantamount on Viserys and prevalent in Cersei, and to a lesser degree Stannis. Dany recgnizes that she must live, survive, consolidate, THEN conquor. Dany does SERIOUSLY question her own motives- something that Stannis, Cersei, and Viserys most assuredly never did. Dany seems very concerned with her men and their well-being as WELL as her citizens. To say nothing of her freeing the slaves.

Which brings us to the all improtant "freedom" issue. Dany frees people. She frees them from slavery, from helplessness, from hopelessness and from fear. She CANNOT do everything for them. But she ahs already done more than any other character has done for any other group of people in any of the books so far. Don't believe me? From my estimations, Dany has conquored 3 cities freeing close to a million slaves. Who else even comes close?

Go read the books again; I'll wait.... .... .... .... ....

Okay, so what's the counter to "Dany freed like a million people?" Dantos saved Sansa. That was awesome. Stannis saved the Wall so that counts, definatley. Okay...gee...pretty slim picking after that... Jaime goes back for Brienne. Definatley good. Wow...not much after that in trems of pure self-less acts...

Dany's feat of salvation for the slaves is monumentaly more important than all those. Combined. Not many other characters do purely selfless feats.

I also noted that people claim that Dany never has an idea of her own; that she listens to her advisors too much. I have never seen a possitive attribute like "listening to good advice" be put down so clumsily. Dany listens to those who know better. That's not a flaw- ITS AN ATTRIBUTE! Its a good thing. Had Robb Stark LISTENED to those around him more... well... he may be one head taller today.

I have no idea why she loved Kahl Drago either... maybe it was because she HAD TO LOVE HIM!!! Survival is such an overwehlming instinct in people that it manisfests itself so oddly. Dany KNEW - instinctively - that Khal Drogo was her only way to survive against the hostile world she was married into. That was it. And he treated her well- something she was not used to (see Viserys).

Other problems- Dany is overly proud. Ah...she has raised an army FROM NOTHING, has conquored three cities, freed slaves, and has three dragons she is training. I would be proud of that if I were her. I do not find her attitude "arrogant" but proud. Nothing wromng with pride.

Dany has everything handed to her (like her dragons). Unrealistic and just untrue. For starers, the dragons can be killed. And she has been given SOooooo much less than others. Robb Stark, by contrast, was given a kingdom, armies, well trained troops, FANTASTIC allies and incompetient enemies (save Tywin). Oh, and the direwolf that always seems to come to his rescue. Not exactly alone in a desert now is it?

I am unclear as to how people can maintain these opinions when there is nothing there to support them.

[Deaf Dick]

I will never understand the Dany resentment insofar as it attaches to the character herself.

I can DEFINATLEY understand the disconect between Dany and Westeroes. However, Martin is subtely connecting the two stories more and more and HAS HAD them connected since the beginning. The chasm is not as vast as you intimate.

I find all other attacks on Dany to be erroneous. For starters, Dany displays aboslutely ZERO "dilusions" of entitlement that were tantamount on Viserys and prevalent in Cersei, and to a lesser degree Stannis. Dany recgnizes that she must live, survive, consolidate, THEN conquor. Dany does SERIOUSLY question her own motives- something that Stannis, Cersei, and Viserys most assuredly never did. Dany seems very concerned with her men and their well-being as WELL as her citizens. To say nothing of her freeing the slaves.

Which brings us to the all improtant "freedom" issue. Dany frees people. She frees them from slavery, from helplessness, from hopelessness and from fear. She CANNOT do everything for them. But she ahs already done more than any other character has done for any other group of people in any of the books so far. Don't believe me? From my estimations, Dany has conquored 3 cities freeing close to a million slaves. Who else even comes close?

Go read the books again; I'll wait.... .... .... .... ....

Okay, so what's the counter to "Dany freed like a million people?" Dantos saved Sansa. That was awesome. Stannis saved the Wall so that counts, definatley. Okay...gee...pretty slim picking after that... Jaime goes back for Brienne. Definatley good. Wow...not much after that in trems of pure self-less acts...

Dany's feat of salvation for the slaves is monumentaly more important than all those. Combined. Not many other characters do purely selfless feats.

I also noted that people claim that Dany never has an idea of her own; that she listens to her advisors too much. I have never seen a possitive attribute like "listening to good advice" be put down so clumsily. Dany listens to those who know better. That's not a flaw- ITS AN ATTRIBUTE! Its a good thing. Had Robb Stark LISTENED to those around him more... well... he may be one head taller today.

I have no idea why she loved Kahl Drago either... maybe it was because she HAD TO LOVE HIM!!! Survival is such an overwehlming instinct in people that it manisfests itself so oddly. Dany KNEW - instinctively - that Khal Drogo was her only way to survive against the hostile world she was married into. That was it. And he treated her well- something she was not used to (see Viserys).

Other problems- Dany is overly proud. Ah...she has raised an army FROM NOTHING, has conquored three cities, freed slaves, and has three dragons she is training. I would be proud of that if I were her. I do not find her attitude "arrogant" but proud. Nothing wromng with pride.

Dany has everything handed to her (like her dragons). Unrealistic and just untrue. For starers, the dragons can be killed. And she has been given SOooooo much less than others. Robb Stark, by contrast, was given a kingdom, armies, well trained troops, FANTASTIC allies and incompetient enemies (save Tywin). Oh, and the direwolf that always seems to come to his rescue. Not exactly alone in a desert now is it?

I am unclear as to how people can maintain these opinions when there is nothing there to support them.

Well put Councillor. I can see where the author is tying in the other locales to Westeros, e.g. Arya in Braavos, and assuming (hoping) that Victarion gets some airtime in the next book to help flesh out the non-Westerosi.

I think some of the "arrogance" that people attribute to Dany is partly "I'm the blood of the dragon." I don't perceive that as arrogance, but rather steeling herself for a difficult task. "Cowboy the fuck up" just doesn't seem to fit her character as well as "Blood of the Dragon"

I would disagree somewhat about Robb and entitlement, as it wasn't his idea to be king. But since he put on the crown, he had taken on that responsibility....which is another thread in itself.

There were other selfless acts, (The Halfhand and Quentyn Hightower come to mind), but that is just looking through the series for instances of self sacrifice, not to try to minimize the depth of Dany and her freedmen.

[Enguerrand]

Considering lawful rule and entitlement.

I think Varys riddle is a very good answer to this question. Power resides where people BELIEVE it resides. Sure you can keep a gun to people’s head but that will only take you so far. People, even medieaval people resent being bullied and will not support you when the next guy with a gun comes by. In order to create an acceptance you have indoctrinate people that your will must be done. Show people why it’s in their interest to obey. After a while this will gradually be accepted. Consider democracy for example; we are continously hammered with the notion that this best form of rule in history, and that it’s are duty to obey are sworn electives. To even question this is regarded as offensive.

In the end we are creatures by habit. The people of Westeros obeyed the Targayrens because they were the kings. When Robert ascended he tried to borrow their aura of majesty through his claim but really he didn’t look or act like a king(i.e Targayren) so suddenly there are people who questions why this stormlord are going to tell them what to do. As GreatJon said “why should they rule us from some flowery seat at Highgarden or Dorne.†If the Baratheon had managed to hold on the power for a couple of generations then perhaps they could have created some legitimacy of their own.

Devil Hanzo,

And most important: HE DOES NOT WANT THE POSITION OF COMMANDER and he wanted winterfell only because it was a sign of opposition to his bastardism.

You are wrong. Jon explictly joins the Nightwatch in order to rise high in it’s ranks and accumulate martial glory. He reason that his bastardhood will not be held against him and his blood should set him on the fast track. He volunteers for every mission available to distinguish himself. He is only hesitant because he reached his career goal at 17 instead of 40.

1) How can you possibly love a man like Khal Drogo? I mean, he kills and tortures and is essentially an asshole. He is nice to Dany because she is pretty and became his wife(she also charmed him with her charisma, got to give her props) but he was soo.....brutal.

If you lived in a world where brutality is the norm. Where powerful people are out to kill you. I gather most women would appriciate to have a husband like Khal Drogo. Dany felt safe. But that’s just part of it. Drogo is a brute, yes but he isn’t monster. The raping, killing and pillaging is the Dothraki cultural heritage(and part of westerosi culture as well to some extent). It would be pretty strange if he didn’t share the outlook of his people. Yet he is capable of going beyond it. He treats Dany gently even though he doesn’t have too. (Remeber those khals that share their wifes with their bloodriders?)

More impressive is that he actually listens to what his foreign teenage trophy wife has to say and consider it on merit when it clashes with his outlook. 99 out 100 people wouldn’t do that. Then again it’s pretty obvious that Khal Drogo didn’t command the obedience of the greatest khalaasar ever by lacking people skills.

He rose too this position on merit aided by his superlative skills as warrior and leader. It’s little wonder that most men looks like wimps to Dany.

[Pellegrina]

Nothing wromng with pride.

*cough*Seven deadly sins*cough*

I think some of the "arrogance" that people attribute to Dany is partly "I'm the blood of the dragon." I don't perceive that as arrogance, but rather steeling herself for a difficult task. "Cowboy the fuck up" just doesn't seem to fit her character as well as "Blood of the Dragon"

Actually, there are several scenes where it's more of a "how DARE you question the blood of the dragon", just like Viserys.

I was initially sympthetic to Dany - poor kid with bullying brother - but went off her completely over the course of ACOK, partly because she's such a dreadful fantasy cliché squatting like a malignant toad over a series that has inspired an enthusiasm I haven't experienced since the heady days of Babylon 5 season 3 for the very reason that it avoids so many of the clichés that had put me off fantasy for years. She's such a Mary Sue - even unto the silvery blonde hair and violet eyes! Dispossessed queen, dragon powers, steely resolve, innate superiority and self-confidence, and apparently all set to conquer and reign victorious.

I might regain some of my initial sympathy if there were any sense that she might be riding for a fall, or at least a stumble or some serious struggle, but the only bad thing that's really happened to her since marriage to Drogo turned out to be not such bad news is losing the prenatally annoying sprog, and being myself without maternal instinct, I have a tin ear for that...

[Devil Hanzo]

"""You are wrong. Jon explictly joins the Nightwatch in order to rise high in it’s ranks and accumulate martial glory. He reason that his bastardhood will not be held against him and his blood should set him on the fast track. He volunteers for every mission available to distinguish himself. He is only hesitant because he reached his career goal at 17 instead of 40. """"

The way only a bastard can.

But he had a chance to grab MORE glory, by grabbing winterfell. If Slynt were in Jon's place or Cersie, they would go for it.

Jon however, became all dutiful and refused.

After going through this thread, and rereading some of the series, i no longer dislike Dany for those reasons.

My dislike for her now, just seems to stem around khal drogo and how she disregards that harpies son's problem.

On topic of Khal Drogo: Rape was looked down upon in westeros, but it happened none the less.

Drogo, i think WAS a monster. In the beginning, he used Dany to relieve pressure in his balls. Read the first few Dany chapters and you really feel sorry for her.

She was just smart enough to take it, and actually start communicating with Drogo, then he loved her.

But originally, he took her simply because he thought: "oooh, she has silver hair and purple eyes, HOT!"

Im pretty sure, he would have done as other Khal had. Infact, his treatment of the lamb people really was harsh.

I dont care if it is part of thier culture. One of the main themes of song of ice and fire is how everyone is questioning the norms around them.

Jaime is an example of how he had to choose between his king, his father, and his morality.

He knew Aerys, was going to burn down king's landing, so he killed aerys.(HONORABLE Selmy probably knew about it, and would let it happen. So honorable. pfff.)

SO why didn't Dany think like this? LIke other charecters?

So now i like her a little better then before. I dont hate her anymore, she just...confuses me now.

My only beef now is drogo, and me feeling sorry for that Harpy kid from dance with dragons . But it seems she had no choice or did not know a solution.

[Red Rex]

She is the rightful ruler of the throne? Essentially, the first men are the TRUE rulers of westeros, them or the children of the forest. Essentially, all she is is the blood of someone who over took another persons land.

If Prince charles walked into the states/canada/russia and said: Do what i say, i have the blood of countless kings running through my viens, my ancestors intermarried with other kings of europe, i am the rightful ruler of you. Obey me.

I would say 'Go to hell!'

And so what if she can birth dragons? The meagi can see the future, and thier nto special.

Watch dragon ball, countless charecters can fly and blow buildings up.....but so what!! PIccalo surpasses super saiyan level one, and at just super saiyan one you can blow up planets...with less power.

Now what makes him special? Nothing.

What makes Dany special? Nothing.

She birthed dragons because of sacrifice.

I will admit, she is a strong willed, strong girl(mentally and emotionally)

But dispite this, she fell in love with a man who raped and murdered countless lives.

You exist in an idealistic NON-reality, just because you state a fact and say "so what" following it does NOTHING to decrease the importance of such things. Dany birthed dragons, since this is the case it opens up a whole new realm of possibilities to her that were previously unavailible to her. The Maegi can see the future, you dont think THATS SPECIAL? say u work in a building and because u have the ability to see the future u know it will be bombed the next day; even if u cant save anyone else u call in sick --> you live when otherwise u'd have died. Drogo has his part was a product of his society, Dany loved him and you think she sholdnt, which only gives evidence to the fact youve never attracted that type of person your self. Drogo killed ENEMIES to kill your enemies is BLISSFUL... Those granted the greatest ability are inherantly favored by the God/s else they'd have been denied such capacity should their intentions be other than in serving the divine will

[Devil Hanzo]

You did not understand what i was saying

It is believed that Dany has some sort of spiritual/intellectual superiority because she has dragons, because dragons are mysical and special.

But meagi's can see the future. Does that not give them some sort of specialness?

And the fact that she is attracted to such a man, regardless of culture, shows what she really values.

Can mother teresa fall in love with hitler? It just...would not happen.

So what does Dany really believe? She turned a blind eye to Drogo's cruelty.

[Wulfshead]

Another reason I don't like Dany, she acts as though she's the chosen one. I mean sure, all of the nobility in the series act like this to an extent. On the other hand, Dany talks about freeing people and delivering justice, but there is no retribution for Dany's crimes. She reminds me of Ceasar. The almighty Ceasar can overthrow the republic because he knows what's best for it, even if he has to break the law and become a tyrant to do it. Dany has good intentions, but she doesn't seem stable to me.

[Red Rex]

Another reason I don't like Dany, she acts as though she's the chosen one. I mean sure, all of the nobility in the series act like this to an extent. On the other hand, Dany talks about freeing people and delivering justice, but there is no retribution for Dany's crimes. She reminds me of Ceasar. The almighty Ceasar can overthrow the republic because he knows what's best for it, even if he has to break the law and become a tyrant to do it. Dany has good intentions, but she doesn't seem stable to me.

If your the best mankind has to offer at the particular moment and more lives will benefit as the end result of your actions it is immoral NOT to act. Dany IS the chosen one by GOD/s and more to the point so was Caesar. You view things through a flawwed modern belief that every life is equal in value which is a dalse and terribly dillusional preception. The value of a particular humans life is the ability they possess to influence the lives of other, value increases in correspondance with that number of people. the worth of someones life is dictated by how many lives were positively affected due to their actions, multiplied by the significance of impact, take that result and decrease those lives negatively affect with the same formula, add to said the affect said person actions have on future generations using the same formula and there it is, likely Dany IS better than all other existing human being in GRRM created world.