Not A Big Fan Of Targs...

[Xanrn]

Caspan, I will try to explain this one more time

Feudal Contracts work both ways, yes they swear to obey and follow but the King swears protection in return.

Medieval Nobles were not slaves , the relationships on the Feudal pyramid was always give and take.

Aery's demanded Robert's Head.

Robert didn't just rise in rebellion, Aerys murdered the Stark Lord and his Heir breaking the Stark-Targ contract. He also murdered the Arryn Heir and a very powerful bannermen of the Tullys. He then demands Robert and Ned's heads, Arryn rose in rebellion and rightful, Aery's broke their contract by murdering his nephew. Demanding Robert Baratheon's head broke the contract between Dragon and Stag.

He also broke contract between Tully and Targ, thoose 2 Mallisters were sworn the to Tully's. Aery's was sworn to protect the Tully's vassals.

So quite frankly *bamf* to his oaths, Aerys broke them first.

It is not illegal to strike back after being attacked.

It is not illegal to fight back after War has been declared on your person.

Robert had no oaths to break, Aery's voided thoose Oaths, he voided the Contract by breaking his end of it. Aerys broke the oaths, not Robert.

The only people who broke their vows to their King, were named Lannister.

[Lord Mord]

Xanrn,

I made an error.

I made the assumption there can be such a thing as a legitimate monarchy. I made it thinking I could do so and restrict it to this discussion, but I now see that is not possible. No government which does not require the explicit consent of the governed is legitimate, and monarchy expressly denies any such requirement -- as such Dany is no more nor less "right" to rule Westeros than any of the other claimants.

Your statements about contract theory led me to see the contradictions I was making, and that they were insoluble. Thank you.

Say, what does bamf mean, anyway?

[Lord Mord]

I can't believe that people are actually saying that Dany had a harder time than Jon. I'm not trying to say she didn't have a difficult life, but when it comes to her success everything has just fallen into his lap. And the only time it looks like she might actually fail: BAM, MAGICAL DRAGON EGGS HATCH WOOT! Deus ex Machina anyone?

Marth,

Deus ex machinae only come at the very end of a tale. They're usually the result of bad storytelling, because the term implies the author had no other way to resolve the story and answer all pertinent questions except to blindside his audience with something they weren't given any reason to expect. It's hard for me to come up with any examples, but I think the tortoise-dropping incident at the end of Terry Pratchett's Small Gods qualifies -- although there, perhaps, the use was deliberate.

[The Stranger]

or, perhaps, eagles showing up to save all the loyal white people from the destruction of mordor.

[yourcockandballs]

Aaayyy. People judge through the characters of this series using so much modern morality and personal judgements, when I really think the point of it is to draw you out of that and give you lots of perspective you wouldn't normally have, or even simply...appreciation. I mean, I wouldn't get a long with a ton of the characters, in fact I would probably hate their guts in real life, but I still love them as characters and perspectives.

And I think one theme is being reiterated through the book: whoever is able to rule, should rule. This is displayed plainly in many of the "sub"cultures of the book, the Ironborn and the wildings for example, while the more civilized cultures scorn it...yet, when it comes down to it, they do the exact same thing. If Dany could and is able to rule, then she should, is what is being said.

I'm weirded out that so many people hate her for being prideful of her bloodline. Even the most average people today still take pride in their ethnicity, culture, gender, etc. Humans are very tribal even if this is diverted into something other than a direct bloodline and probably always will be. Accepting this without letting it get out of hand isn't a bad thing.

[Devil Hanzo]

Im proud of my culture, but i will be the last one to say i am better then you because of it, or that; i will be a better leader.

Dany believes that because she is a Targ, she is better suited to rule.

The Saladin was Kurdish, and was a great ruler for the arab world, his rule made even the europians envy the middle east.

But does that mean a kurdish president for america would be better then an american born one?

Obviously not! Depends on the individual.

[yourcockandballs]

You're right about that, and maybe she will end up being put in her place or have it being her downfall. Really though I think it might have been the only positive thing to fall back on as she was raised, like a prayer a child might know and keep repeating in adulthood. Whether or not this ends up giving her the courage to act on the right things or the wrong ones we will have to see.

[Maia]

I can't believe that people are actually saying that Dany had a harder time than Jon. I'm not trying to say she didn't have a difficult life, but when it comes to her success everything has just fallen into his lap. And the only time it looks like she might actually fail: BAM, MAGICAL DRAGON EGGS HATCH WOOT! Deus ex Machina anyone?

LOL! And when Jon and Robb BAM get magical wolves dropped into their laps it is not?! Wolves that were _very_ instrumental to most of their successes, BTW. As to things falling into Dany's lap, they do, but to a far lesser degree than they fell into Jon or Robb's lap. I mean, come on! How convenient is it that the wildlings not only spared Jon, but stupidly sent him with an advance group across the Wall? What a coincidence that all worthy candidates for LC were killed and Jon gets elected without moving a finger? How many times did Ghost make right decisions for Jon, when Jon was about to stray or magically delivered essential information without which Jon and NW would have been lost!

At least, while Dany is lucky, most of her successes actually result from decisions, sacrifices and actions on her part, rather than just get served to her on a silver platter. And her dragons, unlike Stark direwolves, aren't an unmixed blessing.

[Ahimsa]

Yeah okay but how tough is a wolf compared to a dragon? Even magical wolf that drops into laps?

[Doran Doran]

Dany is no better or worse than most of the other characters we meet in the series. Flaws aplenty, some saving graces.

What irks about her is the sense of towering inevitability attached to her, a sense that only becomes stronger as the story progresses. It makes the rest of the story totally meaningless - what use to tell us about politics in King's Landing or schemes in Dorne when they will all be swept clean away when the flying Burger King outfit finally arrives in Westeros?

[Rockroi]

Pallegrina:

I am encouraged that we are having such a lively discussion about this topic. We agree in many areas, but the disagreement is STILL worthwhile in exploring.

Jon often reflects on his (bastard) Stark identity, etc. There's a sense that he is consciously making the best of a situation (being on the Wall) that he wasn't too sure was the right thing. His evolution as a character has been in response to encounters and events. He's making choices and reflecting on what they mean to him.

Now, here is where I actually draw my greatest disagreement. I do not think Jon is "making" anything. In fact, when I read Jon, I am absolutely ASTONISHED that this character is as passibve as he is. Jon does not drive the story; the story happens TO Jon. I have illustrated this point on MANY occasions and will only draw the broad strokes here- his defeat of Qurion Half-Hand, his "joining" of the wildings, his election to the Command of the Wall, etc - NONE of these things happen BECAUSE Jon made any inherent decision or took any action- each event HAPPEN either because Jon was ordered to do it or because they were THRUST upon Jon. Even an action as simple as bedding Ygritte, Jon had to ESENCIALLY be tackled into doing it.

Jon did not even VOTE in the Election of the Commander for the Wall. Its THAT level of disinterest that strikes me as so astonishingly passive.

This is why I like Dany and do not enjoy Jon at all; Dany ACTS! She takes action, she does things- she sees a problem and attacks it- whether with her massively powerful dragons (who are REDICULOUSLY meak, weak, and small when ACoK begins and lets be honest, not at ALL as powerful as others would suggest) or her subtle charms. She is determined and willful. Jon is passive and disinterested in MANY of the events that take place. The events of the books happen TO Jon; Dany actually drives the story.

With Dany I don't have this feeling. She was this frightened 13-year-old who suddenly blossoms in the sunshine of Khal Thuggo's manly love and reflected power to a fully-fledged confident woman.

Again, my argument was that this was a survival mechanism- either make Drogo love me or I die. Very compelling.

I was so overjoyed at her miscarriage of the Baby of Prophecy that I felt positively evil.

Oh Hell, I CHEERED when The Mountain turned Oberyn Martell's face into pudding; we all have guilty pleasures! :cool:

From there on in, her self-perception as the rightful heir of Westeros is never questioned by her: she never wonders whether it's the right thing for her to do. She never seems to question whether she has the right to take on herself the decisions of who should live or die, whether it is right to abolish slavery as an institution without being in a position to offer alternative ways of life to hordes of penniless jobless freed slaves, etc.; in fact she reacts harshly to those who question her.

This is where I completely disagree. I think Dany is emotionaly vulnerable in these areas and is CONSTANTLY checking and questioning if what she is doing is correct. She is NOT blind like Viserys or Cersei. In fact, look at Stannis- Stannis wants to be King DESPITE his complete inability to rule due to lack of an army o startegic location. Yet, he MUST be King- not because he WANTS to (he does) but because he HAS to. This is ALSO NOT DANY! Dany wants to be Queen because she can save her people from the tyranny (precieved) of the Usurper and his brood.

And is she THAT far off? It has HARDLY been peaches and cream since Robert hit Rhaegar with that war hammer. The Lannisters are in power, there have been rebellions, wars, battles, execusions, treason, bankruptcy, and like 6 dead Hands since... From Dorne to the North there is rebellion and open treason. Oh, and there is the little matter of the Others coming. But whatever.

Dany SEES this (all except the Others) and she KNOWS she can unite these people like Aegon did 300 years prior. Those are HER people and SHE can FREE them just as she did those slaves.

Dany WAS a slave- she was sold, bought, paid for, discarded, left to die and THRIVED in the most pure of hostile environments. And all along the way she has thought about the crises of her peril and the impact of her actions. Very compelling.

I hope that we can continue this lively debate. And somehow without name-calling.

[Enguerrand]

Fundamentally what I dislike is the whiff of invincibility - the sense that no matter what happens, she's the heroine and it will all come out right for her in the end, and whatever hard choices she has to make (and I'm not denying they're hard or saying she's made the wrong ones), Dany will come out of it victorious, coated in Teflon (no-dragon-stick) and smelling of roses.

That’s the trouble with main characters, they get the breaks, if they didn’t they wouldn’t be main characters. Notice that since Dany’s storyline has no interaction with the others, all her chapters are about building her character. But Jon is worse; People asking him to kill them when he is cornered. Armies appearing from the nowhere when death is imminent. etc.

I can't believe that people are actually saying that Dany had a harder time than Jon.

Seriously? Dany’s mother died birthing her. Her father was killed by his retainers. She has been running from assassins since before she could walk. Living on alms from strangers in the free cities accompanied by a abusive mentally instable older brother. Sold to a barbarian warlord at thirteen. Pregnant at that age. Seen her brother tortured to death. Has her husband and child killed by sorcery leaving her supposedly barren in the process.

Now what is Jon’s claim to misery? That Catelyn Stark gave him the cold shoulder?

Im proud of my culture, but i will be the last one to say i am better then you because of it, or that; i will be a better leader.

Dany believes that because she is a Targ, she is better suited to rule.

Daenerys thinks she has the right and the duty to rule. Targaryren sovereignity isn't a figment of her imagination. People believe Targaryrens are born to rule. That is why Robert tries to anchor his claim to his Targaryren blood. She simply behaves and thinks like everybody everyone expect her to.

Who do Eddard Stark think he is bossing around the people in the North? Just because because he comes from a from long line of kings he thinks he has the right to judge and execute people. Isn't that just as arrogant?

[Mutethunder]

Who do Eddard Stark think he is bossing around the people in the North? Just because because he comes from a from long line of kings he thinks he has the right to judge and execute people. Isn't that just as arrogant?

I wouldn't say so.. Eddard has been ruling the North for 15 years or so and the people there IMO liked him and thought his rule was just. They fought a war to avenge his death after all.

Dany hasn't really ruled that much yet

[Maia]

Rockroi and Enguerrand, I agree with you almost word for word!

That’s the trouble with main characters, they get the breaks, if they didn’t they wouldn’t be main characters. Notice that since Dany’s storyline has no interaction with the others, all her chapters are about building her character. But Jon is worse; People asking him to kill them when he is cornered. Armies appearing from the nowhere when death is imminent. etc.

LOL. And lets not forget Jon's wolf foiling his attempts to make mistakes that would have had dire consequences - i.e. deserting or accepting Stannis's offer. Even on the rare occasions when Jon can be bothered to act on his own initiative the Iron Hand of Fate is there to unsubtly force him into the right direction.

Re: direwolves versus dragons. Yes, dragons will be tougher eventually, but they only became mankillers late in ASOS, versus wolves early AGOT. And their growing power seems to be a very mixed blessing, versus the unmixed blessing of direwolves.

Also, direwolves seem much more capable of independant action and of steering their humans into certain directions a la spirit guides.

Ghost, for instance, is a very busy canine - he draws the NW's attention to the wights for the first time, helps Jon to defeat said wight, he finds obsidian weapons for NW, he has the vision re: wildling army that allows Jon and Co to turn back early, he makes the Halfhand's defeat by Jon somewhat credible and on no less than 2 occasions he prevents Jon from leaving the Wall. Ghost should be the hero, really, and not his master .

[Ashara]

I see Stark's wolves as something very different from Targaryen's dragons. The dragons are Targaryen's swords, a machine of war. The wolves are Starks' shields, the extesnions of the characters themselves. They were given to Starks children, just as their mother and father were about to be destroyed.

I don't think that Ghosts decides for Jon, I think that Ghost is a part of Jon's descsions.

As for whose childhood was tougher, Jon's or Dany's... hey, they both had tough times, they both had a tragic love affair with someone who belonged to a different culture and was more mature than them. However, Jon did not urge his girlfriend to come make war. Jon was there to defend his people, while Dany is there to conquer them. Jon tries to understand and comes to like some of his enemies, seeing them as people. Dany turns away from the facts that are thrown into her face, in her stubborn belief that everyone who is against her is a dog and must be hunged. Dany's attitude is always "I am right because I am right!" Jon's: "Am I right? How to do it right?"

[Lord Mord]

Dany's attitude is always "I am right because I am right!" Jon's: "Am I right? How to do it right?"

Ashara,

What you say about Jon's attitude is rather less true since he's been made Lord Commander, and in any case that kind of attitude has no place for the person who's at the top. A Queen who has to ask everyone else for assurance that what she's doing is right isn't much of a queen. If their opinions count more than her own, they're soon going to wonder why they bother asking her in the first place, or listening to her.

[Ashara]

Hence, he is adjusting properly to his position, but he still is asking the question "How to do it right?" and he hopefully always will. Dany does not. She just goes and gets what she wants, right or not. It only by a lucky chance that her caprices lead to some good deeds, not by choice. She is going to conquer, not defend or protect. Hence, she is an aggressor. Hence, unlikable in my books.

It always amuses me, that when Vyseris beggs and bargains, and do whatever to coherse someone to conquer Westerous for him, it is pathetic and unlikable, but when Dany does the same, it is suddenly aweinspiring and sympathetic.

[Lord Mord]

Hence, he is adjusting properly to his position, but he still is asking the question "How to do it right?" and he hopefully always will. Dany does not. She just goes and gets what she wants, right or not. It only by a lucky chance that her caprices lead to some good deeds, not by choice. She is going to conquer, not defend or protect. Hence, she is an aggressor. Hence, unlikable in my books.

It always amuses me, that when Vyseris beggs and bargains, and do whatever to coherse someone to conquer Westerous for him, it is pathetic and unlikable, but when Dany does the same, it is suddenly aweinspiring and sympathetic.

Viserys thought he could coerce people without any force, thought he could buy people with promises. Daenerys recognizes people willing to sell themselves require something a tad more substantial, and that threats are only effective when one has the arms or the wits to enforce them.

That said, while I don't hate Daenerys, you're quite right, it's hard to like her very much, considering the blood that follows in her wake.

[Kingslayer]

They fought a war to avenge his death after all.

No, they fought a war because Robb called the banners when Ned was arrested as a traitor.

You're overestimating the sentimentality of the Stark bannermen. They came because Winterfell called them, and they had a duty to come. Personal feelings didn't enter into it.

[Pellegrina]

Oh, and i will admit, if you wanted to match wits with other charecters, i will be the first to admit that Dany is smarter and more brave then Sansa and(please dont kill me) even Arya.

I'm not so sure that Dany is smarter and more brave than Sansa. Bear in mind that Sansa is now the age Dany was when she was cowed and under Viserys's thumb, before being khaleesi gave her a taste of power and authority. Sansa shows a lot of bravery in AFfC and she is more isolated than Dany; she is learning a lot.

I'm weirded out that so many people hate her for being prideful of her bloodline. Even the most average people today still take pride in their ethnicity, culture, gender, etc. Humans are very tribal even if this is diverted into something other than a direct bloodline and probably always will be. Accepting this without letting it get out of hand isn't a bad thing.

This is one of those things about "most people" I just don't get, probably because of my background (expat since a young age, never really known many of my relatives beyond the immediate family, never lived anywhere I had family ties to). I haven't felt proud of my nationality (US) since I was about 10 beyond enjoying the whiff of exoticism (my sister and I being pretty much the only foreigners at our primary and middle schools). Pride in white ethnicity is socially frowned upon . I feel vaguely proud of Italian culture by upbringing, but with a melancholy sense of never truly belonging. I can't quite shake a sense pride in one's bloodline may be faintly indecent!

What irks about her is the sense of towering inevitability attached to her, a sense that only becomes stronger as the story progresses. It makes the rest of the story totally meaningless - what use to tell us about politics in King's Landing or schemes in Dorne when they will all be swept clean away when the flying Burger King outfit finally arrives in Westeros?

That really is my main gripe against her - the rest of it is that if there had to be a sense of towering inevitability, I'd rather it attached to a character I *liked* more and had some grounds for empathizing with. With Sansa, I can remember being a bratty little girl who wanted everything to be nice, so I enjoy reading about her learning to rise above that.

Pellegrina:

I am encouraged that we are having such a lively discussion about this topic.

Me too!

Now, here is where I actually draw my greatest disagreement. I do not think Jon is "making" anything. In fact, when I read Jon, I am absolutely ASTONISHED that this character is as passibve as he is. Jon does not drive the story; the story happens TO Jon. I have illustrated this point on MANY occasions and will only draw the broad strokes here- his defeat of Qurion Half-Hand, his "joining" of the wildings, his election to the Command of the Wall, etc - NONE of these things happen BECAUSE Jon made any inherent decision or took any action- each event HAPPEN either because Jon was ordered to do it or because they were THRUST upon Jon. Even an action as simple as bedding Ygritte, Jon had to ESENCIALLY be tackled into doing it.

Jon did not even VOTE in the Election of the Commander for the Wall. Its THAT level of disinterest that strikes me as so astonishingly passive.

This is why I like Dany and do not enjoy Jon at all; Dany ACTS! She takes action, she does things- she sees a problem and attacks it- whether with her massively powerful dragons (who are REDICULOUSLY meak, weak, and small when ACoK begins and lets be honest, not at ALL as powerful as others would suggest) or her subtle charms. She is determined and willful. Jon is passive and disinterested in MANY of the events that take place. The events of the books happen TO Jon; Dany actually drives the story.

This is clearly a fundamental divergence in personal taste, because I agree with what you've said about the difference between them and I think you've put your finger on one reason why I don't enjoy Dany. It is alien to my nature to be so decisive and seek to impose my will on others; I question my motivations and the wisdom of my actions a lot more than Dany does.

Also, following on from what I said above on my blind spot to pride in one's antecedents, I guess I have a bedrock of sympathy for Jon and his search for an identity, and find Dany's ready-made "Blood of the Dragon" difficult to sympathise with, whether it derives from an arrogant sense of entitlement or a feudal sense of duty to the realm. I likethat Jon is drifting, uncertain of who he is and what he should do with his life, whereas Dany's certainties strike me as frighteningly driven and potentially misguided.

Again, my argument was that this was a survival mechanism- either make Drogo love me or I die. Very compelling.

Funny, I never read it that way at all! I thought she had just decided that seeing as she was saddled with this husband, she might as well try to make the best of it and try to enjoy what men and women do. So (as most girls would) she asked her handmaiden for advice, who happened to be a trained courtesan.

In fact, look at Stannis- Stannis wants to be King DESPITE his complete inability to rule due to lack of an army o startegic location. Yet, he MUST be King- not because he WANTS to (he does) but because he HAS to. This is ALSO NOT DANY! Dany wants to be Queen because she can save her people from the tyranny (precieved) of the Usurper and his brood.

Again, that's not something I read into her story arc. Admittedly, at the start I was definitely among those who didn't care much about her because she seemed so marginal, so I may have missed something. Dany's desire to abolish slavery does her credit, of course, but the passages I remember suggest that she is motivated at least as much by a desire for revenge and regaining what is "rightfully" hers. (I think it was Xarnrn who pointed out that technically Aerys abandoned any claim to rightful kingship and justified rebellion by his actions, a position I tend to agree with.)

Dany SEES this (all except the Others) and she KNOWS she can unite these people like Aegon did 300 years prior. Those are HER people and SHE can FREE them just as she did those slaves.

You probably know the books better than I do as a newcomer to GRRM worship, but my impression was that Dany's goals were already set well before she had much notion of the political situation in Westeros. When she learns of the political strife there, I thought her attitude was more "Oh good, the stage is ripe for my triumphant return" than "OMG I must save my poor people!". Admittedly, she's young, but there's still that whiff of prophecy.

I don't know why I keep reading fantasy when Chosen Ones get my goat so!

Dany WAS a slave- she was sold, bought, paid for, discarded, left to die and THRIVED in the most pure of hostile environments. And all along the way she has thought about the crises of her peril and the impact of her actions. Very compelling.

Sadly, it just doesn't do it for me :/ There's still that whiff of a violet-eyed Mary Sue, set up with the requisite tough background of adversity for her to triumph over. She was *sold* as a slave, but became a queen thereby and was practically on a pedestal once she got pregnant. I do still hope that perhaps by the end of ADwD I will become more interested in Dany as it seems bound to make my life a lot easier for the grand finale!

I hope that we can continue this lively debate. And somehow without name-calling.

Thanks! I've found it very enlightening so far - though I still don't like Dany, I will try to bear all this in mind when I reread ASoS (next in line for rereading).