Marwyn

[Gaston de Foix]

I agree with Other-in-Law, whose post it is difficult to improve upon. Re Melisandre's necklace, it's worth noting that the Strangler comes from Asshai as does Melisandre.

[hackhamster]

Marwyn suggests that Aemon was at the Wall because the Citadel wanted him away from them, whereas Aemon says he was on the Wall because, well, he swore vows to get away from being used against his brother.

Both statements could be true at the same time, depending on your viewpoint. Aemon's desire to de-politicize himself could have jibed with the Citadel's wish to keep out of Targaryen politics by not resisting Aemon's self-exile.

FWIW, I'm an adherent of the Anti-Magic Citadel Theory: Marwyn's warning regarding and denunciation of the Grey Sheep to Sam was a way for George to show Sam that he hadn't really found the sanctuary he'd been seeking, that the Citadel was a potential enemy, and that his preconceptions about the Citadel we entirely wrong. It was also a window into yet another faction in Westeros whose long-haul goal is hidden from view, a precursor to perhaps finding the resources of the Citadel against her when she finally comes West. As usual, George muddies the waters then leaves us hanging.

[Blackstone]

Sorry, once again the evidence doesn't back you up on that either. Marwynn and Aemon's stories are not congruent.

When Aemon was first a Maester, he was a Maester for one of his brother's castles. If the Citadel wanted to shelve Aemon out of the way, they would have at least sent him to the Wall right away.

When the succession that lead to Aemon the Unlikely (i.e. our buddy Egg) being raised King, Aemon considered himself out of the succession because of his Maester's oaths. There was talk of having the High Septon absolve Aemon of his oaths. Rather than letting that happen, Aemon went to the Wall so that he would not be used politically against his brother.

Let's see some actual evidence of the conspiracy and let's stop pretending that everything the citadel does or doesn't do that is inconsistent with the conspiracy is somehow the conspiracy being extra-clever.

[wvlr]

When the succession that lead to Aemon the Unlikely (i.e. our buddy Egg) being raised King, Aemon considered himself out of the succession because of his Maester's oaths. There was talk of having the High Septon absolve Aemon of his oaths. Rather than letting that happen, Aemon went to the Wall so that he would not be used politically against his brother.

This seems exactly the senario that I posted above showing how that it could have easily been induced by someone plotting to get him out of the way. The Plotter (if there was one - because I am NOT saying that it was a certianty - just that it could have happened.) Would have had an agent pressuring Aemon to take the position that was rightfully his - kingship. The "There was talk of having the High Septon absolve Aemon of his oaths." matches with that perfectly. They would not have cared if he joined the NW or disappeared into the East as long as he was out of the Citadel's hair. Maybe the

I'm sorry, but the evidence that you are referencing is actually working against you.

[Gaston de Foix]

Sorry, once again the evidence doesn't back you up on that either. Marwynn and Aemon's stories are not congruent.

When Aemon was first a Maester, he was a Maester for one of his brother's castles. If the Citadel wanted to shelve Aemon out of the way, they would have at least sent him to the Wall right away.

When the succession that lead to Aemon the Unlikely (i.e. our buddy Egg) being raised King, Aemon considered himself out of the succession because of his Maester's oaths. There was talk of having the High Septon absolve Aemon of his oaths. Rather than letting that happen, Aemon went to the Wall so that he would not be used politically against his brother.

Let's see some actual evidence of the conspiracy and let's stop pretending that everything the citadel does or doesn't do that is inconsistent with the conspiracy is somehow the conspiracy being extra-clever.

Marwyn and Aemon's stories aren't contradictory. That was my point. Nothing more.

maesters don't become archmaesters without a period of service to some Lord. The point Marwyn was making isn't that Aemon could become archmaester immediately upon becoming a maester and forging his chain, it is that he should have been one because he was qualified, but he could not be trusted to be let into the innermost councils of the Citadel because of his blood and birth.

[shadowbinding shoe]

But it's the nobles that were discussing this and making decisions, not a council of archmaesters. To influence this council the plotters would need maesters serving key noble houses to be in on the plot. And as we discussed earlier that's unlikely. A maester that's sworn to serve a particular house (and not the Citadel) and is not in contact with his buddies from Oldtown is a big risk for the plot.

And for what would all this effort be needed? To get rid of Aemon from the Citadel's politicking? Why is he so dangerous? Of the Targs he was one of the more rational ones. He wasn't as interested in magic as Marwyn, and his lot. Why is he someone that must be gotten rid of but Marwyn and like minded gray wolves not?

Re: the poison proof necklace

My impression of these necklaces is that their insanely expensive. I can imagine suspicious Mel saving her last pennies to buy one or getting it in a more underhanded way but would Marwyn make the sacrifices necessary to obtain it? Are his motives that strong?

[Ran]

... but he could not be trusted to be let into the innermost councils of the Citadel because of his blood and birth.

Aemon couldn't be, but Marwyn is ... ? Of course, Marwyn claims he's not in fact trusted, but if this doesn't bar him from being in the Citadel as an archmaester, why would it bar an old man like Aemon?

Re-reading it, I'll note that he doesn't even _claim_ that the Citadel has a hand in Aemon joining the Watch. He merely suggests the Citadel should have been able to do something to get him off the Wall... but if we're all happily supposing third parties trying to make sure Aemon stayed away, one can as well suppose that there were third parties who _did_ try to work out how to get him to the Citadel, and he just refused to do so because of his vows. Marwyn, biased against the "grey sheep", just supposes they purposefully "failed" and discounts entirely Aemon's reasons.

It's funny, it's not as if he thinks the Citadel would refuse to send maesters to Dany. Reading it again, I realized that he's actually trying to outrace the other maesters from the Citadel whom he expects would be sent when they get Aemon's news. What in the world is this talk of killing Aemon for urging the Citadel to send aid to Dany, when Marwyn expects the Citadel will do it? Perhaps for their own motives, but still -- what's the point? Except to push his particularly conspiracy theory, anyways?

Re-reading the chapter, Marwyn strikes me as a little ... off. Like, I guess, most conspiracy theory nuts tend to be.

[Gaston de Foix]

Aemon couldn't be, but Marwyn is ... ? Of course, Marwyn claims he's not in fact trusted, but if this doesn't bar him from being in the Citadel as an archmaester, why would it bar an old man like Aemon?

Re-reading it, I'll note that he doesn't even _claim_ that the Citadel has a hand in Aemon joining the Watch. He merely suggests the Citadel should have been able to do something to get him off the Wall... but if we're all happily supposing third parties trying to make sure Aemon stayed away, one can as well suppose that there were third parties who _did_ try to work out how to get him to the Citadel, and he just refused to do so because of his vows. Marwyn, biased against the "grey sheep", just supposes they purposefully "failed" and discounts entirely Aemon's reasons.

It's funny, it's not as if he thinks the Citadel would refuse to send maesters to Dany. Reading it again, I realized that he's actually trying to outrace the other maesters from the Citadel whom he expects would be sent when they get Aemon's news. What in the world is this talk of killing Aemon for urging the Citadel to send aid to Dany, when Marwyn expects the Citadel will do it? Perhaps for their own motives, but still -- what's the point? Except to push his particularly conspiracy theory, anyways?

Re-reading the chapter, Marwyn strikes me as a little ... off. Like, I guess, most conspiracy theory nuts tend to be.

Marwyn fears an assassination attempt by the Citadel at Dany "their man in a galley". It's not like Dany doesn't have potential assassins around, but perhaps the Citadel has something that the Sorrowful Men don't. More likely they'll send someone from Westeros who can slip something into her drink while telling her sad tales of the death of (Targaryen) Kings.

As for why he's an archmaester, I really don't know. I think we'll figure that out once we learn more about the politics of the Citadel.

An interpretation re his comments about Aemon would be that he thought Aemon should never have been sent to the Wall to take vows, rather than thinking that once Aemon took his vows he should come back.

Marwyn definitely seems off, but I also see signs that GRRM is trying to make him a charismatic and believable figure, perhaps even a bold truth teller rather than paranoid. "He was not a man to be refused".

[Blackstone]

Well I just reread the whole Marwyn/Sam dialogue. Now, I'll change my tune. I remembered Marwyn as a crackpot figure, now I think he's up to no good.

Sam explains to Marwyn that Aemon believed that Danerys was the fulfillment of prophecy, man's only hope and that she had to be brought home to be protected.

Marwyn says that prophecy is tricky in somewhat pungent terms.

Then, Sam states that Aemon wanted the citadel to send a Maester to her, and that he would have gone himself if his strength had held out.

It's not until now that Marwyn starts to say crazy stuff. As soon as Sam suggests that he would tell the others that Dany should have a Maester on behalf of Aemon, Marwyn suggests that Sam should STFU. He tells Sam that the citadel would have killed Aemon and even killed Sam. He also instructs Sam not to tell the other Arch-Maesters anything at all about Aemon and Dany and dragons. Then he claims that the Citadel has no use for Dragons or Sorcery and that it was they who killed the dragons, and that they let him rot on the Wall when they could have made him Arch-Maester.

Basically, I think Marwyn is just trying to scare Sam into silence so that no one follows him to Dany for a good long while.

[Gaston de Foix]

Marwyn says that prophecy is tricky in somewhat pungent terms.

That, at least, is true. Ask Cersei or Stannis, both of whom would be fortunate to have such counsel. Marwyn's recognition of the danger of relying on prophecy goes some way towards establishing his credibility in my eyes.

[Guest Other-in-law]

Grinachu,

Thanks.

SBS,

Marwyn wouldn't have necessaily have had to pay an arm and a leg for an anti-poison amulet. He could have learned how to make them himself. That's the whole reason he traveled east, to learn the ancient sorceries of other civilisations. Of course, some of them might have refused to reveal their knowledge, but it sounds like he traded his own expertise for that of other people. That's how Mirri Maz Duur learned maester medicine from him.

Returning to an older exchange about the curiosity that Marwyn ever became an Archmaester in the first place, I had said:

But why would the Archmaesters in completely different fields be qualified to judge whose best in a different field from their own? Nor does a popularity contest make sense...if that was the case, I would expect a rapidly anti-magic VS Archmaester instead of the unpopular Marwyn. My suspicion is that one has to prove one's knowledge and proficiency in a subject to win an Archmaestership. The Citadel is ostensibly a meritocracy.

And Ran responded:

Given that archmaesters have a rather broad area of expertise, I don't see why they _wouldn't_ be qualified to determine who is worthy of becoming an archmaester. I don't honestly see who else could be capable of making the decision. I certainly don't see how the Grand Maester would be.

I would expect that the committee or what have you that selects a new Archmaester would need to be qualified to judge such candidates as have applied for the spot. Normally, all the Archmaesters would meet that criterion, and as the senior and highest ranking maesters it would not be surprising for them to be the judges (excluding senile ones like Walgrave). An alternative is that there are actually several teaching maesters for each (normal) department serving under the Archmaester, who are particular specialists in that field (Gormon seems to fall into this category); and that they choose the new Archmaester. There would be a conflict of interest issue, of course, because they would probably comprise most of the applicants for the spot, but this is not unlike the college of Cardinals, again. A third possibility is that the retiring or dying Archmaester is entitled to name a successor. Or even that Lord Hightower can make the appointments if he chooses. Or it could be something else entirely.

The Archmaester for Magic is a totally different situation since most maesters don't bother forging that unusually useless, elective link. Do the other Archmaesters have it? It seems unlikely and how can they be qualified to judge the candidates if they themselves don't even meet the minimum proficiency requirement for the field? If the judges are always Archmaesters with the restriction that they must actually have the link in question themselves, it could have been a very small group indeed that appointed Marwyn. Supposing, just for fun, that Walgrave was the only living Archmaester who had the valyrian steel link; would the other Archmaesters accept his decision or claim it was fraud and that Marwyn had hoodwinked an old man of wandering wits? What if none of them at all had the link? Whatever the answer is (assuming GRRM has even decided, or intends to reveal any of this), I'm sure it will be interesting. Looking forward to Sam's next chapters, however long it will be that get them. There should be a lot of questions answered then.

[shadowbinding shoe]

SBS,

Marwyn wouldn't have necessaily have had to pay an arm and a leg for an anti-poison amulet. He could have learned how to make them himself. That's the whole reason he traveled east, to learn the ancient sorceries of other civilisations. Of course, some of them might have refused to reveal their knowledge, but it sounds like he traded his own expertise for that of other people. That's how Mirri Maz Duur learned maester medicine from him.

I think you'll agree this amulet is of high level expertise type. When Mirri and Marwyn exchange knowledge they don't give their full knowledge to each other. They reveal some of the more basic stuff. There must be a reason why these amulets are so expensive and are only made in one place. The amulet is a top level secret that would be revealed to no outsider. What is surgical knowledge compared to cash for the undying? (besides, I think Sam or Leo in the prologue would have remarked on Marwyn's jewelery if he had any)

But you raise an interesting question. Was Marwyn breaking his maester vows by revealing Citadel knowledge to outsiders? Free knowledge is not a traditional concept. You have to become an initiate in order to learn the secret knowledge of a learned group.

[Gaston de Foix]

But you raise an interesting question. Was Marwyn breaking his maester vows by revealing Citadel knowledge to outsiders? Free knowledge is not a traditional concept. You have to become an initiate in order to learn the secret knowledge of a learned group.

Sam intends to join the Citadel. The others are already forging their chain. In any event a mentor-protege system seems to be in place in the Citadel. Marwyn has his little coterie, the others have theirs.

[shadowbinding shoe]

Sam intends to join the Citadel. The others are already forging their chain. In any event a mentor-protege system seems to be in place in the Citadel. Marwyn has his little coterie, the others have theirs.

I meant teaching Mirri Maz Durr. She's not an initiate of the Citadel so her right to learn their secrets is questionable. I think they were both breaking the laws of their respective orders.

[Guest Other-in-law]

I think you'll agree this amulet is of high level expertise type.

No, not really. It might be, but it also might be fairly commonplace for a magical item, for all we know.

When Mirri and Marwyn exchange knowledge they don't give their full knowledge to each other. They reveal some of the more basic stuff.

Presumably they don't have time to teach every single thing they know to each other, but they probably started with lots of duplicate information anyway. They probably both knew a lot of the basics already.

There must be a reason why these amulets are so expensive and are only made in one place. The amulet is a top level secret that would be revealed to no outsider.

Um...where on earth are you getting this stuff?? Made only in one place? We don't know that. Aside from Mel's ruby (which is very probably in this category), all we have is this:

"Dany's tight silver collar was chafing against her throat. She unfastened it and flung it aside. The collar was set with an enchanted amethyst that Xaro swore would ward her aginst all poisons. The pureborn were notorious for offering poisoned wine to those they thought dangerous, but they had not offered Dany so much as a cup of water."

Nothing about the particular rarity or exclusive manufacture of such amulets. They're just given a simple mention.

What is surgical knowledge compared to cash for the undying?

Marwyn has been specifically described as "studying with Warlocks and Shadowbinders".

(besides, I think Sam or Leo in the prologue would have remarked on Marwyn's jewelery if he had any)

If he was wearing it at the time, and if it wasn't hidden under his maester's collar. And, to be sure, if he even had one.

That's not the only explanation for why Marwyn hasn't been poisoned of course, though it's perfectly viable. As I said at the beginning, the Grey Sheep may simply prefer to let him rant and prattle and try to ignore him. The MacBeth school of conspiracy management (just keep racking up that murder tally, there's no downside to it!) is hardly the most effective way to avoid drawing attention to a plot.

And Marwyn's own unorthodox habits have been mentioned, he frequents all kinds of strange places in the undercity, sailor's temples, rat pits, and black brothels, consorting with mummers, singers, sellswords, beggars, Summer Islanders, and Ibbenese. Maybe the Grey Sheep never got so much as a chance to poison him, because he doesn't stay and eat with them in their ivory tower refectory, instead going wherever he pleases and eating with people they wouldn't even know?

As to teaching outsiders, remember that one isn't required to stay at the Citadel. Oberyn Martell forged some links there, maybe picked up some of that fascinating maesterly poisoning wisdom, and then got bored and left. One says their vows after they've gotten the requisite schooling out of the way, not before.

[Magnar of Haeg]

What if it's just hazing? The shrug, the ghastly smile... Marwyn's an obvious nonconformist pitted against the status-quo-loving Skeptics-In-Charge... He's the tenured rogue, and no doubt pans his contemporaries shamelessly as often and loudly as possible... but perhaps he's just having a bit of fun at Slayer's expense with the whole murder bit.

[Theo1]

Marwyn is dark flame whom Danny is warned about