Robb's stupid moves

[Ser Spidey]

That is a good argument but he still could have quickly married a girl and consummated the marriage. Ned and Catelyn did and presumably so did Jon and Lysa, before they led their armies to war in Robert's Rebellion.

ETA: If not at that moment, when he was contemplating his next move at Riverrun.

He didn't have a minute to waste-and wedding, no matter how fast, would have taken at least a day.

Riverrun-ok.

[shadowbinding shoe]

Wasn't it Catelyn's doing? Insisting that Robb is too young to get chained down already?

Also I think the Freys (unlike the Tullys) were not considered good enough to be given the prize (the marriage) before they handed the full sum (helped to win Robb's war by bleeding for him). Also Robb and his men were not that eager to claim their prize and postponed it as long as they could. Robb himself tells his mother that he prefers girls with bigger lineages.

[Knight of the Teabags]

The question as to why Robb didn't marry whichever of Lord Frey's daughters/grand daughters he liked best asap, but instead said he would do it after the war has got me thinking.

1) Considering it was Catelyn not Robb who negiotiated the agreement in the first place, is it not possible that Robb may have gone along with it 'for the time being' naively thinking that he might be able to renegiotate the pact at a later date from a stronger position?

2) Looking at things from Lord Frey's prespective asking Robb to wait til after the war is arguably more convenient for the nasty old man. Afterall were one of Lord Frey's daughters Robb's queen while the war was ongoing, abandoning Robb's cause (let alone betraying it) is potentially a lot more costly for Lord Frey - as Robb's father-in-law (with his daughter calling herself a Queen) Lord Frey would be seen as a chief co-conspirator in Robb's 'treason' against Joffery. As a mere promise from Robb to marry his daughter, Lord Frey has a get-out clause for their alliance if he ever wants to use it (he simply calls the marriage off) and if things go okay he reaps the reward if the war is won, whereas had Robb actually married a Frey daughter during the war Lord Frey really has to stand by his son-in-law through 'better or worse' if he wants his House to come out the war stronger than it started. Afterall historically the father-in-law (or that matter son-in-law) of a defeated rebel is lucky to get a begrudging pardon out of the ruling king let alone a reward...

Actually thinking about Lord Frey's don't-commit-too-firmly-to-any-side-til-you-know-the-outcome attitude in most conflicts, I wouldn't be at all suprised if the 'wait until after the war' part of the marriage pact was his idea in the first place!

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Ser Spider,

You are wrong.

IIRC, Robb warned Edmure not to do anything, but failed to tell him the reason.

I consider this a mistake.

No. Robb did not warn Edmure "not to do anything." He told him to "Hold Riverrun." An open ended and abigous order. Edmure is (in fact if not name) Lord Paramount of the Riverlands. To expect him to sit still and hold one castle while an army moves across his territory was foolish on Robbs part. If he wanted Edmure to stay in Riverrun without doing more his orders should have been more explicit.

[Ser Spidey]

Ser Spider,

No. Robb did not warn Edmure "not to do anything." He told him to "Hold Riverrun." An open ended and abigous order. Edmure is (in fact if not name) Lord Paramount of the Riverlands. To expect him to sit still and hold one castle while an army moves across his territory was foolish on Robbs part. If he wanted Edmure to stay in Riverrun without doing more his orders should have been more explicit.

Then I don't think we disagree.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Ser Spider,

Then I don't think we disagree.

Oh, at the end of the day I do think we agree. I'm simply pointing out that Robb did not warn Edmure about what actions he should or should not take in his order "Hold Riverrun."

[L'Sana]

Robb's mistakes in my mind:

1. Sending Theon to Balon. No, he couldn't have predicted the future, but there were many good reasons NOT to send Theon and no particularly good reason to do so.

2. Failing to warn Edmure about his intentions. We can argue back and forth all day about whether or not the order "Hold Riverrun" should have precluded Edmure from attacking Tywin, but it's not really relevant from Robb's perspective. The relevant bit is that Edmure is a young, rash glory-seeker looking to atone for his mistakes during the seige of Riverrun. He was not going to sit still while Tywin marched across the Riverlands or look for reasons not to be on the offensive. Even if Robb didn't know that, the Blackfish should have, and they should have planned accordingly.

3. Marrying Jeyne Westerling. Obviously. There were honorable ways out of the situation that did not involve marrying the girl.

4. Failing to punish Cat for freeing Jaime. Whether she was right or wrong to make the deal, she defied the King. She became a distinct liability with the bannerman. If Robb had confined her or something, it might have satisfied the Karstarks. He didn't do this, however, because he was feeling too guilty about mistake #3.

Beyond those, I think everything he did was understandable at the time. Bolton was a good choice for the initial mission (relieve Riverrun and free Ned), it was only later that having him in charge of half the army became a liability. Robb had to accept the Frey proposal; Lord Frey had Robb over a barrel and they both knew it. Robb could probably have pulled off being King in the North, at least, if not the Riverlands; he has Moat Cailin, and none of the Southern lords would likely have been that enthusiastic about trying to take him on. He had to go North after Balon's attack, and he could leave the Freys as enemies in his rear.

[Dracosmith]

You are wrong.

IIRC, Robb warned Edmure not to do anything, but failed to tell him the reason.

I consider this a mistake.

Yah I really wasn't sure if the plan to lure Tywin had come about before or after he left from Riverrun. Why did Robb fail to tell him the reason? It clearly sounds like it had been an intentional decision.

[Jon Targaryen]

Yah I really wasn't sure if the plan to lure Tywin had come about before or after he left from Riverrun. Why did Robb fail to tell him the reason? It clearly sounds like it had been an intentional decision.

Edmure had failed in his previous battle(s?). I bet Robb just expected him to do his best this time and Tywin the genius would break through. It might have still happened had word not come of the Tyrell offer of alliance.

ETA: Telling Edmure to hold back and let Tywin pass would seem suspicious.

[the silent speaker]

An open ended and ambiguous order.

It wasn't ambiguous to Edmure, and that's what keeps catching me up. From the defenses he made to Robb later, he disobeyed knowing he was disobeying.

[Lady Blackfish]

It wasn't ambiguous to Edmure, and that's what keeps catching me up. From the defenses he made to Robb later, he disobeyed knowing he was disobeying.

I disagree. After taking his public honors from Robb, Edmure is caught off guard when he learns he (as well as the Blacfish) is really upset with him. Then he assumes that it's because Robb wanted the glory himself. He quite clearly didn't realize the significance of his actions.

[Sneeki2]

As far as sheer boneheadedness goes, I tend to go with sending Theon as an envoy. There's really no sympathetic explanation for that one. For sleeping with Jeyne, I can say that he was a 16 year old in serious emotional distress. For going on to marry her, I can say that he had his sense of honor. For accepting the crown, he had his image as a leader to consider. For Roose Bolton and Walder Frey, if nothing else there is his inexperience. But with Theon, he had his mother begging him to his face to not do it, and he had the example of his father who for years saw fit to keep him as a hostage and had never totally warmed up to him. So that one gets my "most stupid" award, which of course is not necessarily the same as "costliest".

I think it came down to him thinking he knew Theon better than his mother did. Most parent's can clearly see the errors of many of their kid's friendships/acquaintances long before the child does themselves.

Underestimating his ememies and his lacking in political saavy is what led to his downfall (just like old Ned). His mom had a decent head on her shoulders and had a pretty good knowledge of Riverland politics, he should have kept her very close in all of his political dealings.

Ned and Robb represent the usual hero archtype found in a lot of fantasy writing to me. In those types of books, honor and loyalty are usually rewarded. In this series (more like life), those qualities can get you killed just as quick as any other.

[L'Sana]

It wasn't ambiguous to Edmure, and that's what keeps catching me up. From the defenses he made to Robb later, he disobeyed knowing he was disobeying.

Initially, Robb tells Edmure that he told him to "Hold riverrun," and Edmure says:

"I held Riverrun, and I bloodied Tywin's nose."

suggesting that he doesn't think that what he did was inconsistent with the "Hold Riverrun" order.

Later, Robb says "I told you to hold Riverrun. What part of that didn't you understand." And at this point, Edmure could again have said, "Yeah, well I did hold Riverrun. I just did some other stuff too," and he doesn't. I would suggest that this is because he recognizes that Robb is unimpressed by this argument and he feels guilty about messing up Robb's plans, not because he really believed that he knowingly disobeyed.

[Lady Blackfish]

Very true, Sneeki. Yet in just about all other instances he tried furiously to do what he thought his father would have done. Hell he should've just worn a "What Would Eddard Do?" t-shirt for the entirety of the second two books. It's just that in this one case even his father would've served as an example for more caution.

But I don't mean I don't understand it. From Theon's POVs it seems Robb was the only one to really form any sort of meaningful bond with him, Robb was just that kind of guy who wanted to give everyone, the kraken ward included, a chance. Everyone has blind spots and that's what makes the books and the characters real and compelling to me. Still, if someone's asking me which of Robb's decisions is less understandable than the rest, I'd pick that one.

[shadowbinding shoe]

Robb's marriage to Jeyne was a bigger change from his father's way than giving Theon his freedom. Jeyne made him think of Jon and the suffering a possible bastard would have if he married a Frey girl. It's a rebellion against his father's ways. He never wants a son of his to suffer the status of a bastard like his brother had to.

[Jon Targaryen]

Yes, that is another tragedy to add to R+L=J. Robb would not commit the "sin" of his father, so he married Jeyne, when Ned did not commit the sin at all.

[Lady Blackfish]

Ned didn't have to make quite the decision Robb did though, unless he impregnated Jon's mother between Brandon's death and his wedding. Brandon died after the Starks left Harrenhal, which was when Ned was in contact with Ashara Dayne, and Wylla quite frankly wasn't marriage material like Jeyne was.

In ASOS I believe Tywin says Robb's decision to marry Jeyne made him his father's son. Granted, Tywin's impression of Ned is not the be-all end-all, but the similarity is a lot more tenable than in the situation with Theon. Theon wasn't even his best friend like Robert was to Ned. I can see marrying Jeyne being the product of a much more rigorous line of "What would Ned do" self-questioning (and the difference seems to be what Robb had no way of knowing in the first place) than sending Theon to Pyke.

The irony is nevertheless appreciable, of course.

[Dimadick]

1. The Iron Islands situation not being resolved prior to stripping the North of most of its military defenses. Balon Greyjoy saw his opportunity when ,as he put it, only cowards, the elderly and those too young to fight, were left behind to guard it. He had already estimated that only Winterfell would be able to withstand a lengthy siege. All the other fortresses being easy targets.

In effect Balon suddenly saw an unexpected opportunity to achieve all his goals with a few simple strikes. By the time Theon arrived, the troops had been summoned, the battle plans drawn, and the situation too advanced for Theon to change. Even his capture of Winterfell was a way to prove he was able to do what Grey senior could not. A desperate attempt to gain a position in the new status quo of the Islands.

By the way, when it comes to Theon's role as a hostage, I think his value had been greatly overestimated by both Robert Baratheon and Eddard Stark. The two victors of the previous war thought in terms of mainstream Westerosi culture by which Theon would be the definite heir to the dominant family of the Islands. Meanwhile the entire Greyjoy clan seems to have considered Theon as good as dead by the time he left. Meaning that everyone made alternative plans on the fate of the throne, none of them involving the absent Prince. The security of the victor was thus mostly an illusion.

2. Trusting Roose Bolton as commanding officer of a substantial part of his armed forces may have seemed a good choice at the time. If centuries-old conflicts defined current political choices, then Westeros society would be in constant open war, not covert political machinations. However when Roose led said armed forces to defeat after defeat while casualties were mounting, Robb failed to investigate the situation or attempt to replace him.

Seriously, following the fiasco in the Battle of Duskendale, why would Robb leave him in command? By the (false) explanations of Roose, about three thousand men just took off on their own for a foolhardy mission. Making Roose seem unable to control his own troops.

3. Both Edmure's independent military activity against Tywin and Catelyn's attempt at exchanging the valuable hostages of both sides, result from his rather poor understanding of both Tullys and their motivations. He basically expected them to either take purely defensive actions or sit inactive and wait for further developments. But he was not dealing with the likes of Rodrik Cassel.

Edmure was not just seeking glory. He was a new and untried leader with previous failures giving him a negative reputation. He was overeager to prove his competence and step out of the shadow of Hoster. The plans of Robb never offered him such an opportunity. Meanwhile after becoming increasingly familiar with rash and desperate actions by his own mother, Robb fails to either offer her another mission to keep her preoccupied or to have someone keep an eye on her.

4. Not completing his Frey marriage soon enough. In time betraying the Freys with another marriage. I think Walder could care less if Robb took Jane Westerling as a mistress, provided his wife was still a Frey. Also shooting down the strategy proposed to him by Stevron Frey and ,indirectly, Walder right before declaring himself a king.

In summary: Let Joffrey, Renly and/or Stannis Baratheon play the Game of Thrones and patiently wait for a winner to emerge. Choose to swear loyalty or challenge the winner at your leasure. (Assuming the winner has suffered casualties while your own forces are relatively unharmed). Meanwhile as soon as Renly forms his army, Tywin would need a quick truce with the North to go face the royal claimant. Allowing Robb to dictate terms to allow the Lannisters to withdraw safely from the Riverlands. Keeping Jaime as a hostage to be negotiated for against Tywin.

Robb dismisses the entire plan because it offered chances for political gains but not real vengeance. I don't think the decision endeared him to the Freys.

5. No espionage and secret diplomacy. There seems to have been no Varys or Qyburn counterpart serving as Master of Whisperers and collecting information on the activities of nominally loyal supporters. While Tywin wins some of his most important victories by secret negotiations and alliances with strange bedfellows, Robb

hardly even attempts them.

[Dimadick]

"What I would like to know is, does any of you have an idea about how could Robb have avoided the Karstark incident? Punish Cat? Kill Jaime?"

Good question. Lord Karstark was irrational in his obsession with avenging his fallen sons. Killing Jaime, the other Lannister prisoners of war and even Catelyn for even thinking of releasing them might have partly satisfied his need for revenge. But the actions would have burned any bridges for negotiations with surviving Lannisters, hurt the reputation of Robb and effectively condemn Sansa and other Stark-supporting hostages to death. On the other hand anything less would still have left Karstark feeling disillusioned with the Northern cause and still likely to betray Robb. A no win situation however you look at it.

(Curiosity: The death of Jaime by orders of Robb or Karstark would have secured Tyrion in his previously doubtful position as Heir to Casterly Rock. Possibly opening the way to further Lannister in-fighting. Not sure if the Starks could take advantage of it).

[Sneeki2]

Very true, Sneeki. Yet in just about all other instances he tried furiously to do what he thought his father would have done. Hell he should've just worn a "What Would Eddard Do?" t-shirt for the entirety of the second two books. It's just that in this one case even his father would've served as an example for more caution.

But I don't mean I don't understand it. From Theon's POVs it seems Robb was the only one to really form any sort of meaningful bond with him, Robb was just that kind of guy who wanted to give everyone, the kraken ward included, a chance. Everyone has blind spots and that's what makes the books and the characters real and compelling to me. Still, if someone's asking me which of Robb's decisions is less understandable than the rest, I'd pick that one.

You know, Theon wasn't really such a bad kid until he got back around the Iron folk (Robb must have been clueless as to the cut throat politics of the Ironlands and the reputation of the head Greyjoy).

His stay with the Starks was probably the worst thing in the world for him. I liken the court of the Kraken to be much like the court of the Lion. Tyrion learned how to play the game and still retain some amount of normalcy (though Jamie and especially Cersei are definetly damaged goods). Theon, however, was not nearly smart enough to do the same. He squandered just about eveything he learned among the wolves to garner his father's favor.

Theon has one hell of a family, and I thought the Lannisters a bit hardcore.