The Jon's Parentage Re-Read 2

[snake]

Snake, I'm sorry if you've already said this, but I can't remember; what is it that you think the promises were? I am yet to hear an alternative promise that Ned made to Lyanna that makes sense of all of Ned's memories and guilt about it.

I never did come up with anything good although I never really tried.

I'm gonna have to put some serious thought into this and get back to you.

[Stratonice]

Week 6

Three men in white cloaks, he thought, remembering and a strange chill went through him. AGOT 420 Ned thoughts

Seems likely he's associating the situation to when he apporached the ToJ and found Lyanna on her deathbed. Passing three men in white cloaks only to find a loved one on his/her deathbed.

It doesn't really say anything about Jon's parents though.

"Promise me, Ned."

"I promise." Promise me, Ned, Lyanna's voice echoed.

AGOT 422 Robert and Ned

Another loved one asking him to promise things on their deathbed. Robert is even using the exact same words. Maybe the fact that Robert loved Lyanna makes the connection stronger in Ned's mind too.

If R+L=J then the fact that they both in the end entrusted him with the wellfare of their children after their deaths is another similarity. But it's not a necessary one for the quote to be significant.

When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises. AGOT 525 Ned thoughts

I've always taken this particular quote to refer to more recent events. This is just after the big scene in the throne room. The broken promises could easily be explained as the promise he knows Robert asked of him to care for and protect Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella that he broke, the promise he meant to Robert to care for and protect his bastard children which he's now unable to keep, the promise LF made to secure the City Watch which was broken, etc. The blood of his men dead on the floor of the throne room, maybe worry is making him imagine the blood of Arya and Sansa being spilt somewhere as well, the blood of people who will die in the battles to come because he failed, etc.

Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles had died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

This scene when connected with Dany's vision in the House of the Undying does seem to indicate that R+L=someone at the Wall. (Jon's the candidate that makes the most sense.) In other places we're told of how Lyanna loved flowers and especially winter roses which makes the interpretation of her as Jon's mother even stronger but here's a clear connection between her, Rhaegar and blue winter roses.

This scene means nothing in relation to any other possible combination of parents.

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.

AGOT 526-527 Ned thoughts

The crown of winter roses wasn't just a beautiful gesture but came with severe consequences. In the end blood flowed and Ned lost nearly all his family as a result of that gesture.

More connection between Lyanna and winter roses. The fact that he thinks of how she loved their scent in connection with her death hints, but very vaguely, that she at least didn't hate Rhaegar. That would suggest he didn't rape her but it doesn't necessarily say anything of who Jon's parents are.

The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words. If he could only see the boy again, sit and talk with him

AGOT 530 Ned thoughts

Regardless of who Jon's parents are, Ned has never told Jon who his mother is.

If R+L=J he also lied to his wife and to his best friend, he committed treason against a king that was also his best friend, he's allowing people to continue suspecting that Ashara is Jon's mother and there's a woman in Dorne openly claiming to be the mother of his bastard in order to help him keep his sister's secret. Grief over his sister who died to young is probably mixed in with it as well.

If N+A=J he broke his wedding vows to Catelyn and never even told her who with as well as he fathered a child on the daughter of a noble House that he would be unable to marry and then took the child away from her at the same time he came to tell her he'd killed her brother.

If N+W=J he broke his wedding vows to Catelyn and never even told her who with and then took the child away from his mother.

So plenty of sorrow and shame regardless of option but Wylla's case seems the weakest.

(Dany saves some Lamb women from slavery and rape.)

"You are your brother's sister, in truth."

"Viserys?" She did not understand.

"No," he answered. "Rhaegar."

AGOT 558 Dany and Jorah

I've gotten the impression, not just from this quote but overall, that Rhaegar was seen as something of an idealist and this is kind of what I get from this as well. That he had the reputation of being the kind of man who would have attempted to stop something he saw as wrong just as Dany did. It's of course interesting that the specific situation used involves the very crime Rhaegar himself has been accused of...

It doesn't really say anything of who Jon's parents are though.

"The maid's a fair one," Osha said.

"Robert was betrothed to marry her, but Prince Rhaegar carried her off and raped her," Bran explained. "Robert fought a war to win her back. He killed Rhaegar on the Trident with his hammer, but Lyanna died and he never got her back at all."

AGOT 613 Osha and Bran

This doesn't really prove anything. Bran, just like Edric Dayne, wasn't even born when those things happened so he only knows what he's heard other people mention. It's even possible that he only heard the rape part of the story when the King's party came to visit Winterfell.

"We went down to the crypts. Father was there, and we talked. He was sad."

...

"It was something to do about Jon, I think."

AGOT 611 Bran

The most interesting part of this quote for me isn't really connected to Jon's parentage at all but is in the fact that Bran and Rickon apparently learned of Ned's death in a dream they both shared.

As for the Jon part, there are other hints as well that he would've wanted to tell Jon the truth of his origins before he died regardless of who they were. (At least that's how I took his wish to write a letter from the Black Cell, etc.)

[Shewoman]

Stratonice said, "I've gotten the impression, not just from this quote but overall, that Rhaegar was seen as something of an idealist and this is kind of what I get from this as well. That he had the reputation of being the kind of man who would have attempted to stop something he saw as wrong just as Dany did. It's of course interesting that the specific situation used involves the very crime Rhaegar himself has been accused of..."

Yes. This indicates that not everyone thinks of Rhaegar as a rapist.

I interpret Ned's desire to write to Jon from prison the same way you do.

Oh--and I haven't gotten the impression that the story that Lyanna was raped was very widespread. Bran mentions it, but obviously he's too young to know anything others haven't told him; I think he's repeating what he's heart people at Winterfell say. Robert interprets the relationship as a rapeful one in his conversations with Ned, but he wasn't there either. Cersei and Catelyn have weighed in with Mommy-suggestions and neither of them have thought it might have been Lyanna. I can't remember anyone else who mentions it. To recap: the only people I can think of who thought R+L=rape were Robert, who had reason to want to believe it, and Bran, who has no personal knowledge of what happened. He probably heard it from the people of the castle. Have we heard anyone else claim the relationship was one of rape?

[Jon Targaryen]

Bravo everyone. This is the best discussion of a theory I've ever seen on this board. I can't wait till the summary weeks. In light of getting there, week seven is now open.

[snake]

Week 7

His father had sent letters to the Lord of Greywater over the years, but none of the crannogmen had ever called at Winterfell.

ACOK 249 Bran thoughts

Odd that a man such as Howland, who liked to travel, never left Greywater after the Rebellion. Perhaps Howland is hiding something. 'Tis curious that it doesn't mention that Howland ever sent any messages back although he probably did.

Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name

ACOK 530 Dany thoughts

Ones of Dany's visions that could only be Viserys tales being reflected back at her.

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness ��‚�� mother of dragons, bride of fire

ACOK 530 Dany thoughts

A blue flower yet not necessarily a rose. Still, I find the "filled the air with sweetness" part rather odd. If Jon is R & L child then is he supposed to make everything sweet? Is he the sugar king.

Bael the Bard story

ACOK 561 Ygritte

Just a story.

That night he dreamed of the feast Ned Stark had thrown when King Robert came to Winterfell ... he saw that he was dining with the dead ... But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna.

ACOK 608-609 Theon thoughts

Spattered with gore? That seems rather harsh for a childbirth. Perhaps something else killed Lyanna. Perhaps she was killed by someone.

It would also seem she was sad about something but no matter what the outcome that seems rather reasonable.

For the believers I guess you could see the crown as her newfound royalty and the white as a wedding dress. But that seems to be stretching things a bit.

[Sarella]

His father had sent letters to the Lord of Greywater over the years, but none of the crannogmen had ever called at Winterfell.

ACOK 249 Bran thoughts

I think all it tells us is that Howland is an old friend of Ned's, but not the kind that comes to hang out just for fun. Obviously they shared an experience at the TOJ, nomatter what happened there, and have the kind of frienship that is formed by such a shared experience.

I think it is pretty safe to say that Howland knows more than any living person about Jon's parentage since he was Ned's companion on the journey on which Ned obtained Jon.

Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name

ACOK 530 Dany thoughts

Snake, this could reflect what Viserys had told her, but that would mean Viserys told her that Rhaegar had loved Lyanna and murmured her name as he died. Viserys couldn't know this, and wouldn't share it even if he did know.

Also, it is one of many visions, most of which can't just be part of Dany's subconscious or reflections of things she's heard. E.g. she doesn't know anything about Stannis, but she sees a vision of him with his glowing sword and that he casts no shadow.

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness... mother of dragons, bride of fire

ACOK 530 Dany thoughts

All other mentions of blue flowers in the book involve Lyanna or a female Stark. Is this one an exception?

Bael the Bard story

ACOK 561 Ygritte

All of GRRM's stories have meaning. Old Nan's stories about the others, the last hero, and the children of the forest, Sallhador Saan's story about Azor Ahai forging Lightbringer, The Knight of the Laughing Tree. They all mirror what the current characters are doing or have other significance to the series.

The simplest and best meaning of Bael the Bard story is that it mirrors what happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna.

That night he dreamed of the feast Ned Stark had thrown when King Robert came to Winterfell ... he saw that he was dining with the dead ... But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna.

ACOK 608-609 Theon thoughts

Another blue rose reference. And I think "spattered with gore" would accurately describe a childbirth that resulted in the death of the mother.

[Markus]

snake,

The situations were similar in Ned's eyes. ... So after Lyanna dies they discuss what's to be done. They cannot agree so they fight.

You're right. There can be drawn parallels.

I accept that dreams are not literal but his dreams about the ToJ are based on actual events so if he dreamed of blood and broken promises then it probably has some root in actual events.

We simply don't know to which extent the events were actual or imagined. If they were actual then the promises didn't have to be his own. If they were his own then it's more likely that they were broken after he reflected earlier that he kept his vows.

You might not associate the thorns with cruelty but Ned seemed to and he had more information on that than we do.

You're correct. When Ned thinks the thorns were cruel and we think they've to be given a more figurative meaning then we 've to find some cruelty in what followed from Rhaegar taking an interest in Lyanna. Fortunately, there is plenty to choose from between the deaths of Brandon and Rickard and the war and all it entailed. It began with beauty, the love between Lyanna and Rhaegar, but led to cruelty and death. Ot at least that's the way one would interprete it in hindsight if one would already know that Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love and were happy at first. Which is something we don't know of course.

I doubt Ned felt shame for denying Jon his Targaryen heritage, if it even existed. I still think the shame is because of how he handled the situation with Jon's mother.

Well, I think Ned would have felt pretty bad about lying to Jon and all it entailed.

In any case, Ned would of course have felt shame about fathering Jon and not telling Jon who his mother was too. But we already "know" that Ned never broke his marriage vows and I've never seen a good reason why Ned would have either falsely claimed to have fathered Jon after his marriage when he fathered him before or why he wouldn't have told Jon and Catelyn who his mother was if she was Wylla or Ashara Dayne.

I don't think so since Ser Jorah probably never knew Rhaegar's opinions on rape. I just think that Dany showed a kind of "true steel" that Rhaegar was known to possess.

It just makes more sense if Jorah knew that Rhaegar didn't care for rape. That was the most salient thing about the scene and not that Dany was assertive.

Perhaps not well known but Bran states it in such a way that he seems certain of it's truth.

What does it require for a boy of seven years to be "seemingly" certain of something? I don't think that we can infer much from the remark other than that Robert isn't the only person in the realm who thinks that Lyanna was raped.

[snake]

Markus,

You're right. There can be drawn parallels.

We simply don't know to which extent the events were actual or imagined. If they were actual then the promises didn't have to be his own. If they were his own then it's more likely that they were broken after he reflected earlier that he kept his vows.

True. But I'm just using the ToJ dream as a reference and assuming that his other dreams have some sort of real life basis as did that dream.

You're correct. When Ned thinks the thorns were cruel and we think they've to be given a more figurative meaning then we 've to find some cruelty in what followed from Rhaegar taking an interest in Lyanna. Fortunately, there is plenty to choose from between the deaths of Brandon and Rickard and the war and all it entailed. It began with beauty, the love between Lyanna and Rhaegar, but led to cruelty and death. Ot at least that's the way one would interprete it in hindsight if one would already know that Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love and were happy at first. Which is something we don't know of course.

Quite possible. Still, I lean toward the seemingly beautiful gift hiding the dangers and cruelties of what later happened to Lyanna.

Well, I think Ned would have felt pretty bad about lying to Jon and all it entailed.

In any case, Ned would of course have felt shame about fathering Jon and not telling Jon who his mother was too. But we already "know" that Ned never broke his marriage vows and I've never seen a good reason why Ned would have either falsely claimed to have fathered Jon after his marriage when he fathered him before or why he wouldn't have told Jon and Catelyn who his mother was if she was Wylla or Ashara Dayne.

How do we know never broke his marriage vows. He said he did and Edric Dayne has confirmed it?

It just makes more sense if Jorah knew that Rhaegar didn't care for rape. That was the most salient thing about the scene and not that Dany was assertive.

I think the assertiveness angle is valid, especially coupled with the scene that happens a little later between Dany and one of Drogo's bloodriders. It shows she has courage and is not afraid to stand up for what she believes is right. Besides, I Rhaegar might well not have condoned rape but IMO was certainly capable of doing so if it meant fulfilling his prophecy.

What does it require for a boy of seven years to be "seemingly" certain of something? I don't think that we can infer much from the remark other than that Robert isn't the only person in the realm who thinks that Lyanna was raped.

Could be you're right but the passage just seems to suggest that Bran kind of grew up with the tale. Especially in the matter-of-fact way in which he told Osha.

[Angalin]

Could be you're right but the passage just seems to suggest that Bran kind of grew up with the tale. Especially in the matter-of-fact way in which he told Osha.

You do have to wonder who told Bran, though. It's not as if Ned or Catelyn would sit the children down and tell them a bedtime story about how the crown prince carried off their aunt and raped her. Maybe they should have: it would have been a gentler way to disillusion Sansa than what she got instead.

[edit to correct relationship]

[snake]

Another thing I recall is that Maester Luwin is with them as well and doesn't contradict Bran. He does so on a few occasions when Bran is saying something out of turn but this time he's silent. It must be because he has heard and believes the tale as well.

[Shewoman]

Week 7

QUOTE

His father had sent letters to the Lord of Greywater over the years, but none of the crannogmen had ever called at Winterfell.

ACOK 249 Bran thoughts

Howland and Ned were the only survivors of the battle with the KG. Perhaps Howland was seriously wounded and that made travelling difficult. If Lyanna and how Howland was the Knight of the Laughing Tree at Harrenhal, that might indicate that he wasn't a warrior. Ned says that Howland saved his life in the fight, and I think it's likely that that came at some cost to Howland.

QUOTE

Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name

ACOK 530 Dany thoughts

This obviously refers to Rhaegar's death at what became known as the Ruby Ford. We don't know what the woman's name was, though. That means we can't use it as proof of R+L=J OR N+A OR N+W OR George + Condeleeza. Wouldn't it be a hoot if the name turned out to be "Cersei"? Tywin wanted marry her to Rhaegar.

QUOTE

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness--mother of dragons, bride of fire.

ACOK 530 Dany thoughts

It's hard not to see this as making a connection between Lyanna and her damned blue roses and the Wall, although Snake is right that the type of flower isn't named. Perhaps the somewhat overblown "filled the air with sweetness" is to indicate that there's still hope of winning the Battle for the Dawn? Or maybe Dany is actually seeing a commercial from whoever is sponsoring these visions.

I'm not dealing with the questions of marriage or legitimacy, but if Rhaegar was trying to create a child of fire and ice, he's the fire. Lyanna could, in that sense, be understood as a bride of fire.

QUOTE

Bael the Bard story

ACOK 561 Ygritte

It does bear some resemblances to possible reconstructions of R and L.

QUOTE

That night he dreamed of the feast Ned Stark had thrown when King Robert came to Winterfell ... he saw that he was dining with the dead ... But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna.

ACOK 608-609 Theon thoughts

How I long for a vision of Lyanna with a chrysanthemum.

When Ned finds Lyanna, the room smells like blood and, of course, roses. We don't know exactly how Lyanna died. Was it from childbirth (or complications following it)? If she hemorrhaged, blood would go everywhere--certainly on her clothing. Did someone try to do a Caesarean on her to save the baby? That would explain gore on her clothes as well. I don't think this passage requires that she was killed (although if she died from a Caesarean, someone did kill her even if that wasn't the intent).

I'd say she was sad about having been involved, however inadvertently, in the deaths of her father, brother, and Rhaegar.

Snake, I think you're right about Luwin.

[Jon Targaryen]

In preparation for our week 8 (we're not there yet), I'm looking for AFFC quotes related to Jon's Parentage. I only have one so far, where Jon says his blood is not royal. A little irony if he is Aerys's grandson. I may have found a new one. Aemon talks about how Rhegar thought Aegon was AAR because he was conceived on the night of a comet. Wouldn't the same thing apply to Jon and wouldn't Rhaegar have told Aemon? So, Aemon talking about his "choices" takes on new meaning, if so.

Any other AFFC quotes related to Jon's Parentage?

[Stratonice]

Week 7

His father had sent letters to the Lord of Greywater over the years, but none of the crannogmen had ever called at Winterfell.

ACOK 249 Bran thoughts

This quote establishes that Ned and Howland stayed in contact through the years after the war but it is also one of those who establish Howland Reed as a mysterious character. There are plenty of other characters that are mentioned but we have yet to see on screen but few of them are given this aura of mystery. It seems clear (to me) that there is some riddle to be solved here.

Knowledge of R+L=J or N+A=J could be a part in the mystery to solve regarding Howland Reed. Another possibility is that he knows something about the CotF or the Others that will be necessary to win. Whatever it is, if Jon's parentage is part of the mystery, Wylla's case is once again the weakest since N+W=J is the official line.

Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name

ACOK 530 Dany thoughts

Rhaegar's last thought was of a woman but we don't know what the name was. Considering he died fighting Robert who was betrothed to Lyanna it seems reasonable she would have been on his mind at the time, but then he could have been thinking of Elia and how his mistakes would impact her life and their childrens lives.

But even if it is Lyanna's name it doesn't really say anything about who Jon's parents are.

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness ��‚�� mother of dragons, bride of fire

ACOK 530 Dany thoughts

This combined with the quote from week 6 where Rhaegar gives Lyanna the crown made of blue roses is among the strongest support for R+L=J.

True, it doesn't mention what kind of flower it is, but then the winter roses are the only blue flowers I can remember reading about anywhere in the books. Blue flowers (roses specifcally) is almost ridiculously tightly tied to Lyanna, the only other time they are mentioned is in a story about a young Stark girl who's story in many ways mirror Lyanna's. The fact that the crown Rhaegar gave her were made from the same flowers ties him to them as well.

Another interesting word in there is the word "grew". The blue flower is not frozen in a wall of ice or hanging from a wall of ice. It's growing. That could mean a lot of different things but the combination of Jon being very young when he comes to the Wall and so is growing up (in the sense maturing from boy to man) as well as growing in importance (his rise to LC) could work. Another possible interpretation could simply be of a person really belonging at the Wall (rather than just visiting or happening to be there when Dany arrives or something). But maybe I'm reading too much into this.

Anyway, this quote is only relevant to Jon's parentage if R+L=J, but then this quote doesn't make much sense to me at all at the moment if that's not the case either.

That night he dreamed of the feast Ned Stark had thrown when King Robert came to Winterfell ... he saw that he was dining with the dead ... But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna.

ACOK 608-609 Theon thoughts

Not sure if I'm reading this a bit to symbolically but how about the white dress being a symbol for her innocence/naivety at the time she ran off with Rhaegar and the gore spattered over it symbolising all the blood that flowed as a result. The sadness as well as the crown of blue roses Rhaegar gave her fits well with this interpretation too. If that's the case then it's support of Lyanna going willingly with Rhaegar but it doesn't really say anything about who Jon's parents are.

[Markus]

Quite possible. Still, I lean toward the seemingly beautiful gift hiding the dangers and cruelties of what later happened to Lyanna.

Lyanna dying as a result of falling in love and birthing a child can also be seen as cruel. We don't need Rhaegar raping her for this. The question is what do the beautiful roses which Lyanna loved so much represent? What would have been lovely and beautiful for Lyanna about being abducted and raped?

How do we know never broke his marriage vows. He said he did and Edric Dayne has confirmed it?

The relevant quote was discussed in this thread (part 1) about a week ago or so. We can be fairly certain that Ned never broke his marriage vows because he chided Robert for making promises to his lovers which he soon forgot and contrasted this with the claim that "Ned Stark kept his vows."

I think the assertiveness angle is valid, especially coupled with the scene that happens a little later between Dany and one of Drogo's bloodriders. It shows she has courage and is not afraid to stand up for what she believes is right. Besides, I Rhaegar might well not have condoned rape but IMO was certainly capable of doing so if it meant fulfilling his prophecy.

Dany was assertive but I will say it again that stopping a rape was still the most salient thing to the scene. It wouldn't make much sense for Jorah to draw a parallel to Rhaegar when there would have been a greater difference between Dany and Rhaegar salient. If he was honest.

As for Rhaegar raping for a prophecy only, it can't be disproven. It just seems to me that he wouldn't have had to resort to rape when Lyanna crying at his songs and Ned claiming that Lyanna's wolf blood (her wildness) brought her to an early grave are suggestions she was in love with Rhaegar. Would Ned blame her wildness if Lyanna was merely a victim who was abused and raped?

Could be you're right but the passage just seems to suggest that Bran kind of grew up with the tale. Especially in the matter-of-fact way in which he told Osha.

I don't think one can infer the source of Bran's knowledge or how wide spread they were from his remark. He could have said the same if he just overheard a remark once. Maester Luwin not contradicting him is interesting though. Still, he may not have been sure of the truth to be able to contradict him.

[Shewoman]

Angalin--thanks for the message about chrysanthemums. For some reason I haven't been able to return the message.

Jon Targaryen--was Jon Snow conceived on the night of a comet? Your last post implies that but I don't remember that detail.

Stratonice, I like your suggestion that Howland knows something important about the Children of the Forest. Your idea that Rhaegar was thinking of Elia and their children as he died is a definite possibility.

And I had never really noticed that the blue rose in the Wall is GROWING! I don't think you're reading too much into this.

I think in a sense the blue roses represent Lyanna herself--beautiful Northern flowers and a beautiful Northern girl. But roses, once cut, begin to die, and Lyanna, when she left the North, didn't survive. The use of these thorny roses in the Crown of Love and Beauty perhaps suggest that Lyanna will know love, but that it will bring with it a painful price.

Markus, Edric Dayne can't confirm anything about Jon and Wylla; he wasn't born until 3 years or so after Jon was. Anything he says is something he's heard from someone else (I think this quote originally came from Snake).

Once Dany starts to feel at home with the Dothraki, she becomes more assertive. She instigates the public sex act with Drogo that leads to conception. She makes Viserys walk back to the khal. She tells Drogo what Viserys has said when Jhiqui is afraid to do it (this leads to Viserys' "crowning"). If Jorah was comparing her assertiveness to Rhaegar's, he had opportunity well before the "sheepwomen" episode. I agree that the salient thing here is not her assertiveness so much as its cause: protecting women from rape. It seems to me that this is the first time Jorah really sees her as Rhaegar's sister. Given that one of the first things we hear about Rhaegar is that he raped Lyanna (this is, of course, from Robert), this seems to me to be intentionally suggesting that not everyone sees Rhaegar as Robert does.

[Jon Targaryen]

Jon Targaryen--was Jon Snow conceived on the night of a comet? Your last post implies that but I don't remember that detail.

Aegon VI was conceived on the night of the comet.

[sholtzma]

So is this the order of conception and comets and births?

Aegon conceived w/comet

Aegon born

Jon Snow conceived and then born (what is timeline here exactly b/w Aegon and Jon Snow?)

Daenerys conceived and then born 8-9 months after Jon Snow is born

Comet much later when Dany hatches dragons

[Jon Targaryen]

So is this the order of conception and comets and births?

Aegon conceived w/comet

Aegon born

Jon Snow conceived and then born (what is timeline here exactly b/w Aegon and Jon Snow?)

Daenerys conceived and then born 8-9 months after Jon Snow is born

Comet much later when Dany hatches dragons

That is correct. I don't know about Aegon and Jon. When Jon was born Aegon was still "a babe at the breast."

[sholtzma]

That is correct. I don't know about Aegon and Jon. When Jon was born Aegon was still "a babe at the breast."

So Aegon could have been a few months old up to a year old, I would think. No chance that the first comet coincided with Jon's conception or birth. Not that it necessarily needed to, but this comet remains a mystery to me, unless we have some late magical unveiling of Aegon. This "Aegon-was-conceived" comet still has unknown significance in the story.

[Shewoman]

I believe Martin has said that Aegon was "about a year old, give or take a turn" when he was killed. I think his and Rhaenys' deaths occurred around the time of Jon's birth--before rather than after. Ned left King's Landing angry at Robert for accepting Tywin's having had Rhaegar's children murdered, and my impression is that if Lyanna gave birth, it was fairly shortly before Ned found her.