The Jon's Parentage Re-Read 2

[JoannaL]

I am normally not posting on this topic (I read it though) because it seems to be something for specialists and experts (which I am not). Also I am guilty of not having read the 100 or so pages of the Lyanna and Rhaegar topic. But since last week (since the 9. week opened) a question is spinning around and around in my head. Its because of that quote by GRRM:

You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.

Also, did the Kingsguards know what was in the Tower?

Certainly.

January 2nd, 2002

It says WHAT not WHO was in the tower. What if we all got it wrong?

What if Rhaegar wanted to find/make something (a magical device of some kind or a weapon) and not a PTWP (after all he could think he had the prince already with Aegon and three heads with Rhaenys and Viserys)?

What if to do this he needed a couragous female descendant of the first men (and in Harrenhal after the knightofthelaughingtree incident thought Lyanna would fit just fine)

What if he knew the fight for dawn had already started and agents of the enemy were around who must be deceived of his purpose (there are some groups around which questionable goals; lets put in the Faceless Men here for a start ('all men must die'))

So he vanished with Lyanna with the cover story that he abducted her out of love or lust (which is out of character for Rhaegar, we all wondered about that). They vanished for a year! What were they doing? Just sitting in the TOJ? It could have been some kind of quest were they were out of touch with the rest of the world and Rhaegar coulnt know or react when his story backfired so badly.

So they succeeded in finding or making whatever it is and brought it to the ToJ. Rhaegar found out about the mayhem Aerys has caused in the meantime and left (and died). He left 3 KG to protect IT.

When Eddard showed up the KG would give battle (makes much more sense this way, why should they battle Eddard over Lyanna?) Perhaps even Lyanna joined the battle(she could fight after all and that would explain her 'splattered with gore 'death much better), thinking some agents of the Other were with Eddard (Eddard may have had unknownly some contact with the agents of the Other, notice that he does know faceless men- Syrio Forel) Eddard won, Lyanna died. The promise would be not to speak about IT or hide IT.

I know thats sounds farfetched and all in all I tend to the R+L = J theory. But then again, we do not have so much proof for that as well, we are just accustomed to think of Jon as Rhaegars son.

Has this IT- theory been discussed before? Has it some value?

Please give me your thoughts.

[Shewoman]

One of the visions Dany has in the House of the Undying is of Rhaegar and a woman Martin has identified as Elia. Rhaegar is holding Aegon and says "His is the song of ice and fire." Someone should write a book about that. More than one, maybe.

These visions are described as being of things that were, or will be, or never were. But it does seem to suggest that Rhaegar believed that some sort of union or unity between North and South was desirable. It's been suggested on these boards often enough that that could be at least part of the reason why he developed an interest in Lyanna Stark (and if she was the Knight of the Laughing Tree at Harrenhal, that might have further piqued his interest). And I've long thought it was interesting that when Meera and Jojen come to pledge Greywater's loyalty to Bran, they swear by fire and ice. I'm not sure that we've seen those words in conjunction aside from their oath and Dany's vision.

We do get the strong impression that Lyanna was in the Tower of Joy when Ned found her shortly before she died; Ned remembers getting there with his friends, fighting the King's Guard, and finding Lyanna in a room that smelled like blood. He connects these things together--although Martin warns us that the dream isn't to be taken literally: "He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood." Ned and Howland Reed did pull that tower down to bury the dead after the battle; it is "long fallen" by the time of his dream. He never sees Lyanna in this dream, but he hears her calling him--although apparently that call was actually from Vayon Poole, waking injured Ned up to give him something to drink.

I, too, find the "what" of "what was in the Tower" surprising. But I don't think we should take that to mean that there were no people in the Tower. Given whateverthehell happened at Summerhall, it is tempting to think of an attempt to restore the dragons if Rhaegar had happened upon some eggs--and if a dragon gored Lyanna, that would explain the smell of blood in her room and Theon's vision of her among the dead of Winterfell dressed in white and covered in gore.

It doesn't shed much light on Jon's parentage, but it does make a VERY humble suggestion about what the people who may have been his parents could conceivably have been up to.

[Poobah]

Sorry for the derail, I really enjoy reading this thread, but Syrio Forel is a faceless man, Eddard knew him before he found out that Arya wanted to learn to do more than 'stick them with the pointy end'? I thought he was a highly skilled swordsman with a good enough background / reputation / references that Eddard was willing to let him teach his daughter?

[Jon Targaryen]

grinachu,

I don't agree. Obviously it's been a while since I've been a casual reader, but I remember thinking the question of Jon's parentage open.

But I don't think you were ever a casual reader. You joined an internet messageboard dedicated to the series. Obviously, you were exceptional. But you have a point in the statement that Jon's parentage was open. I could see the casual reader holding that opinion. The old poll thread only asked if people thought of R+L before coming to the boards.

I don't know about using "what." I think "who" would refer to Jon or Lyanna or whomever and "what" would refer to "the baby" or "the mother" or "the captive" or whatever. I don't see it as much of an issue.

[JoannaL]

Poobah

there are some who claim that Syrio Forel was a FM. But that is beside the point here. I am not claiming that the FM are agents of the Others I am just saying that perhaps someone (or some group) is and put in the FM as an example.

My point is we have only so much hints in the books about what was going on between R and L (all of them are in this topic here)

We normally explain them with the following assumptions:

- R believed that because of a (to us unknown) prophecy he needed another son who was the PTWP

- He seemed to believe that a Stark (because of here first men blood?) had be the mother

What if we try to explain everything with following starting points (also unproven)

- Rhaegar believed that he had to find/or make something to fight the Others

- for this he needed a Stark (perhaps because of their magic)

- he needed to keep his true purpose hidden because of the enemy

I think you can explain every citation listed here week for week with that as well (some even better, like why did R and L not explain anything to anyone and where were they all the time, why did R not react quicker to the chaos in KL and so on...)

Shewoman

One of the visions Dany has in the House of the Undying is of Rhaegar and a woman Martin has identified as Elia. Rhaegar is holding Aegon and says "His is the song of ice and fire." Someone should write a book about that. More than one, maybe.

These visions are described as being of things that were, or will be, or never were. But it does seem to suggest that Rhaegar believed that some sort of union or unity between North and South was desirable. It's been suggested on these boards often enough that that could be at least part of the reason why he developed an interest in Lyanna Stark (and if she was the Knight of the Laughing Tree at Harrenhal, that might have further piqued his interest)

This is a very interesting vision, I agree, but to our question it is ambiguous at best. The song of ice and fire could also just mean something like 'fighting in the North with dragons' for all we know and Rhaegar says this specifically about AEGON.

I like your dragon idea. I seem to recall (not sure) that Rhaegar discussed dragons with Aemon, so perhaps this is what this is all about. I also think it possible that R and L were up to something else and could still be in love and have Jon.

But for this topic the more important question is: if we can explain everything without Rhaegar in love /or in need of a PTWP, what proof do we have left then for R +L = J ?

[Shewoman]

If Rhaegar considered one of his children to have "the song of fire and ice," that's an indication that he was thinking of some sort of north/south (Targaryen/Stark) collaboration. The Targaryens are associated with fire (it is how they dispose of their dead) and the Starks with ice ("Winter is coming").

The Starks are wargs in the present day; I don't think we've any evidence that earlier generations of their family had this ability, but we can't rule it out either; aoo fo the children of the present generation have the ability, which indicates that it's hereditary. I'm not aware of any other Stark "magic"; what are you referring to? If Rhaegar wanted to create someone with the abilities inherent in "ice and fire," a Targaryen having a child with a Stark sounds like a good way to do it.

We haven't exactly heard the prophecy of the Prince That Was Promised, but we've certainly heard about it. I think it's quite possible that bookish Rhaegar came across it in his studies. We know that he suddenly believed he needed to become a warrior--Selmy says so. We don't have any evidence that he thought he needed to invent something.

Melisandre understands the Prince That Was Promised to be involved in the Battle for the Dawn. If Rhaegar also believed that prophecy, the only enemy he'd have to keep his work secret from is the Others beyond the Wall. I don't see why he wouldn't let people in Westeros know what he was doing. What enemy do you think he was hiding his work from? The Starks of all people, living closer to the Wall than other nobility, would be likely to support an attempt to end that threat.

What other proof do we have for R+L? He crowned her Queen of Love and Beauty at Harrenhal in his own wife's presence--an event that apparently caused consternation (Ned remembers it as the moment when all smiles died). That seems to indicate some relationship between the two, at least in his mind. When Ned is with Lyanna as she dies, she's holding dead rose petals. This could be the crown that Rhaegar gave her (which was a crown of blue roses). I find it hard to believe that Ned brought his sister dead roses.

Brandon Stark certainly thought that Rhaegar was involved in his sister's disappearance; he rode to King's Landing with his attendants to challenge Rhaegar over it.

Jaime Lannister understands that the war was fought over Lyanna: American paperback GoT pp. 418-20 (Jaime PoV): "Robert did all he did for pride, a cunt, and a pretty face."

Dany--unborn at the time--has heard about Rhaegar dying on the Trident for the woman he loved and knows that Rhaegar was involved with Lyanna Stark. She asks Selmy if Elia was a bad wife, since Rhaegar took another woman. Presumably she got this from Viserys, the only member of her family she's ever met.

Ned's refusal to tell anyone--even Jon--who Jon's mother is must have some explanation--as must his memories of having promised Lyanna things and the lies he's told to keep those promises.

[the silent speaker]

Y'know, the South isn't really associated with fire. The Targaryens are, but their ancestral holdings are much more mid-continent, and they aren't really iconic of everything south of the Neck taken as a whole. I think it's possible that Rhaegar looked into a little more than House sigils when deciding how his prophecy should be interpreted (and at that, the Starks aren't nearly so tied up with ice as such as the Targaryens are with fire).

ETA: The dead rose petals can't have been the Harrenhal crown itself, whatever symbolism they have or don't have. Harrenhal was two years prior. Rose petals wouldn't survive that long even dead.

[Shewoman]

The Stark words are "Winter is coming," which suggests a connection to ice. Their sigil is an animal that lives only in the north.

[JoannaL]

Shewoman

If Rhaegar considered one of his children to have "the song of fire and ice," that's an indication that he was thinking of some sort of north/south (Targaryen/Stark) collaboration. The Targaryens are associated with fire (it is how they dispose of their dead) and the Starks with ice ("Winter is coming").

As pointed out before it could mean something like fighting in ice with fire ....

The Starks are wargs in the present day; I don't think we've any evidence that earlier generations of their family had this ability, but we can't rule it out either; aoo fo the children of the present generation have the ability, which indicates that it's hereditary. I'm not aware of any other Stark "magic"; what are you referring to? If Rhaegar wanted to create someone with the abilities inherent in "ice and fire," a Targaryen having a child with a Stark sounds like a good way to do it.

Lyanna may have had the magic abilities, there is some reference to her 'wolf blood' somewhere. Stark magics seems to be warging and whatever else Bran is able to learn from the Three-eyed crow. It is a magic not related to Targaryen 'blood and fire' and in that sense possible very helpful (for a PTWP granted but also on a quest were you need both magics. I could for example imagine that it would be easier for Lyanna to access the Isle of Faces

We haven't exactly heard the prophecy of the Prince That Was Promised, but we've certainly heard about it. I think it's quite possible that bookish Rhaegar came across it in his studies. We know that he suddenly believed he needed to become a warrior--Selmy says so. We don't have any evidence that he thought he needed to invent something.

Yes, but a warrior can need a lot of things for example swords or dragons...

Melisandre understands the Prince That Was Promised to be involved in the Battle for the Dawn. If Rhaegar also believed that prophecy, the only enemy he'd have to keep his work secret from is the Others beyond the Wall. I don't see why he wouldn't let people in Westeros know what he was doing. What enemy do you think he was hiding his work from? The Starks of all people, living closer to the Wall than other nobility, would be likely to support an attempt to end that threat.

As you may have noticed I started a topic in the hope that someone may come up with some hints that there are agents of the Others (or agents of humankind destruction) south of the wall. Until now, no one had any idea, lets see...

Why would the Starks not support such an attempt - no idea, perhaps they would not believe him. On the other hand the same argument holds true for the PTWP Jon theory: Why did Rhaegar not go to Rickard Stark, explain everything and marry Lyanna officially. That would have been much better for the PTWP offical status. Starks would give in eventually to the Crown prince (if this is about worldsaving and all) - > no war (Robert would be really enraged but it would be only Robert).

What other proof do we have for R+L? He crowned her Queen of Love and Beauty at Harrenhal in his own wife's presence--an event that apparently caused consternation (Ned remembers it as the moment when all smiles died). That seems to indicate some relationship between the two, at least in his mind. When Ned is with Lyanna as she dies, she's holding dead rose petals. This could be the crown that Rhaegar gave her (which was a crown of blue roses). I find it hard to believe that Ned brought his sister dead roses.

Brandon Stark certainly thought that Rhaegar was involved in his sister's disappearance; he rode to King's Landing with his attendants to challenge Rhaegar over it.

Jaime Lannister understands that the war was fought over Lyanna: American paperback GoT pp. 418-20 (Jaime PoV): "Robert did all he did for pride, a cunt, and a pretty face."

Dany--unborn at the time--has heard about Rhaegar dying on the Trident for the woman he loved and knows that Rhaegar was involved with Lyanna Stark. She asks Selmy if Elia was a bad wife, since Rhaegar took another woman. Presumably she got this from Viserys, the only member of her family she's ever met.

That would all be because of the Lyanna/Rhaegar love cover story, which R invented to hide his true purposes . Alternatively, he just vanished with her on a quest and everything else was just in the imagination of the others... Brandon and Robert thinking that if he vanished with her it had to be an abduction and so on....

Ned's refusal to tell anyone--even Jon--who Jon's mother is must have some explanation--

Here we would be back now with N +A , perhaps he had had a bad conscience because of the suicide

as must his memories of having promised Lyanna things and the lies he's told to keep those promises.

The promise would be to hide IT or not to speak about IT

You see, all in all, everything can be explained that way. I thank you for this summary, so the two theories could be compared. Overall I still think the R + L =J theory is more likely, but this nagging feeling stays, that we miss something, that GRRM has more for us than just a simple love story. And there is the quote with 'what was in the tower'....

[Shewoman]

JL: Shewoman: If Rhaegar considered one of his children to have "the song of fire and ice," that's an indication that he was thinking of some sort of north/south (Targaryen/Stark) collaboration. The Targaryens are associated with fire (it is how they dispose of their dead) and the Starks with ice ("Winter is coming").

JL: As pointed out before it could mean something like fighting in ice with fire ....

Shewoman: The Starks are wargs in the present day; I don't think we've any evidence that earlier generations of their family had this ability, but we can't rule it out either; aoo fo the children of the present generation have the ability, which indicates that it's hereditary. I'm not aware of any other Stark "magic"; what are you referring to? If Rhaegar wanted to create someone with the abilities inherent in "ice and fire," a Targaryen having a child with a Stark sounds like a good way to do it.

JL: Lyanna may have had the magic abilities, there is some reference to her 'wolf blood' somewhere. Stark magics seems to be warging and whatever else Bran is able to learn from the Three-eyed crow. It is a magic not related to Targaryen 'blood and fire' and in that sense possible very helpful (for a PTWP granted but also on a quest were you need both magics. I could for example imagine that it would be easier for Lyanna to access the Isle of Faces

Shewoman: "Wolf blood" as used in connection with the Starks seems to mean independence and perhaps rage, such as Brandon had. I've never seen the phrase used with the connotatino of magic. And isn't the Isle of Faces associated with the Reeds rather than the Starks?

Shewoman: We haven't exactly heard the prophecy of the Prince That Was Promised, but we've certainly heard about it. I think it's quite possible that bookish Rhaegar came across it in his studies. We know that he suddenly believed he needed to become a warrior--Selmy says so. We don't have any evidence that he thought he needed to invent something.

JL: Yes, but a warrior can need a lot of things for example swords or dragons...

Me: WOuldn't Rhaegar have access to whatever weapons he wanted? Aside from the "what" in the Martin quote--which can be interpreted in a number of ways--have we seen anything to suggest that Rhaegar was trying to make or create implements?

Shewoman: Melisandre understands the Prince That Was Promised to be involved in the Battle for the Dawn. If Rhaegar also believed that prophecy, the only enemy he'd have to keep his work secret from is the Others beyond the Wall. I don't see why he wouldn't let people in Westeros know what he was doing. What enemy do you think he was hiding his work from? The Starks of all people, living closer to the Wall than other nobility, would be likely to support an attempt to end that threat.

JL: As you may have noticed I started a topic in the hope that someone may come up with some hints that there are agents of the Others (or agents of humankind destruction) south of the wall. Until now, no one had any idea, lets see...

Why would the Starks not support such an attempt - no idea, perhaps they would not believe him. On the other hand the same argument holds true for the PTWP Jon theory: Why did Rhaegar not go to Rickard Stark, explain everything and marry Lyanna officially. That would have been much better for the PTWP offical status. Starks would give in eventually to the Crown prince (if this is about worldsaving and all) - > no war (Robert would be really enraged but it would be only Robert).

Shewoman: What other proof do we have for R+L? He crowned her Queen of Love and Beauty at Harrenhal in his own wife's presence--an event that apparently caused consternation (Ned remembers it as the moment when all smiles died). That seems to indicate some relationship between the two, at least in his mind. When Ned is with Lyanna as she dies, she's holding dead rose petals. This could be the crown that Rhaegar gave her (which was a crown of blue roses). I find it hard to believe that Ned brought his sister dead roses.

Brandon Stark certainly thought that Rhaegar was involved in his sister's disappearance; he rode to King's Landing with his attendants to challenge Rhaegar over it.

Jaime Lannister understands that the war was fought over Lyanna: American paperback GoT pp. 418-20 (Jaime PoV): "Robert did all he did for pride, a cunt, and a pretty face."

Dany--unborn at the time--has heard about Rhaegar dying on the Trident for the woman he loved and knows that Rhaegar was involved with Lyanna Stark. She asks Selmy if Elia was a bad wife, since Rhaegar took another woman. Presumably she got this from Viserys, the only member of her family she's ever met.

JL: That would all be because of the Lyanna/Rhaegar love cover story, which R invented to hide his true purposes . Alternatively, he just vanished with her on a quest and everything else was just in the imagination of the others... Brandon and Robert thinking that if he vanished with her it had to be an abduction and so on....

Shewoman: If it's a "cover story" it was implemented immediately, since Brandon heard it very soon and took it seriously enough to risk his lives and those of his squires for it.

Shewoman: Ned's refusal to tell anyone--even Jon--who Jon's mother is must have some explanation, as must his memories of having promised Lyanna things and the lies he's told to keep those promises.

JL: Here we would be back now with N +A , perhaps he had had a bad conscience because of the suicide

Shewoman: Jon, born after the war ended, had to be conceived a few months after the year-long war started. I have a hard time 1) placing Ned and Ashara together at the right time, since Ned was a general in the war whose movements or absence would be noted, and 2) picturing Ned having sex with Ashara after he married Catelyn and so knew he couldn't claim the child if they had one or save Ashara's reputation.

JL: The promise would be to hide IT or not to speak about IT

Shewoman: After the war was over and Rhaegar and Lyanna were both dead, why would it matter whether or not Ned told anyone about whatever objects Rhaegar and Lyanna had been trying to make?

JL: You see, all in all, everything can be explained that way. I thank you for this summary, so the two theories could be compared. Overall I still think the R + L =J theory is more likely, but this nagging feeling stays, that we miss something, that GRRM has more for us than just a simple love story. And there is the quote with 'what was in the tower'....

Shewoman: According to this theory, why did Rhaegar crown Lyanna as the Queen of Love and Beauty at Harrenhal in the presence of most of the nobility of Westeros and his own wife? That seems to have been considered controversial at the time ("all smiles died"), and it does sound more like a romantic gesture than like an invitation to come build robots to defeat the Others. In Meera's account of Harrenhal in Storm of Swords, she describes the "wolf maid" crying when Rhaegar sang--which sounds like her interest in him was personal.

Yours isn't a theory about who Jon's parents are but about what Rhaegar and Lyanna might have been doing instead of being Jon's parents. Seems like you're building an awful lot on the word "what." And I am sure that whatever Rhaegar and Lyanna's story is, it's not a simple love story.

[JoannaL]

Shewoman: Ned's refusal to tell anyone--even Jon--who Jon's mother is must have some explanation, as must his memories of having promised Lyanna things and the lies he's told to keep those promises.

JL: Here we would be back now with N +A , perhaps he had had a bad conscience because of the suicide

Shewoman: Jon, born after the war ended, had to be conceived a few months after the year-long war started. I have a hard time 1) placing Ned and Ashara together at the right time, since Ned was a general in the war whose movements or absence would be noted, and 2) picturing Ned having sex with Ashara after he married Catelyn and so knew he couldn't claim the child if they had one or save Ashara's reputation.

I don't know the finer details of the R+L or N+A discussion; there may be points in favor and against since there are also people around who believe in N+A .For me the most important point in favor of R+L was always that R was not the person to act out of passion or love so there was a hidden purpose so Jon=PTWP if there is another explanation for the hidden purpose I have no idea who J 's parents are.

JL: You see, all in all, everything can be explained that way. I thank you for this summary, so the two theories could be compared. Overall I still think the R + L =J theory is more likely, but this nagging feeling stays, that we miss something, that GRRM has more for us than just a simple love story. And there is the quote with 'what was in the tower'....

Shewoman: According to this theory, why did Rhaegar crown Lyanna as the Queen of Love and Beauty at Harrenhal in the presence of most of the nobility of Westeros and his own wife? That seems to have been considered controversial at the time ("all smiles died"), and it does sound more like a romantic gesture than like an invitation to come build robots to defeat the Others. In Meera's account of Harrenhal in Storm of Swords, she describes the "wolf maid" crying when Rhaegar sang--which sounds like her interest in him was personal.

Yours isn't a theory about who Jon's parents are but about what Rhaegar and Lyanna might have been doing instead of being Jon's parents. Seems like you're building an awful lot on the word "what." And I am sure that whatever Rhaegar and Lyanna's story is, it's not a simple love story.

You are right, a lot of 'what if' just for one small "what", I know... So, very likely wrong, I won't deny it, but still I bet there will be some twist to R +L=J when we finally hear the full story from GRRM...

[Lady Cheesevillage]

ETA: The dead rose petals can't have been the Harrenhal crown itself, whatever symbolism they have or don't have. Harrenhal was two years prior. Rose petals wouldn't survive that long even dead.

Sure they can. I have the dried roses from my wedding three years ago. They're dusty and prone to crumbling if I handle them, but they're perfectly intact.

[Shewoman]

I'm sure there will be a twist. But since this thread is to figure out who Jon's parents are and your theory isn't dealing with that, maybe it needs its own thread (perhaps the one you started about the war for the dawn).

[Maia]

One of the visions Dany has in the House of the Undying is of Rhaegar and a woman Martin has identified as Elia. Rhaegar is holding Aegon and says "His is the song of ice and fire."

But consider also "I am the fire that burns against the cold". IMHO, it is much more likely that in said song Rhaegar's children were supposed to be "fire" because the Others are already associated with "ice". Also, Lyanna seemed to be a fiery person herself, so I strongly doubt that she could have represented ice in any case.

And really, there is no indication that Rhaegar rejected the notion that Aegon was "the promised prince" and was shopping for another candidate. For one thing, Aegon fulfilled the one part of the prophecy that Jon never could have - he _was_ conceived under the "Red Star", on the very night when it appeared. We don't even know if "song of ice and fire" wasn't just a poetic ephemism invented by Rhaegar himself to allude to the new War for the Dawn. At the very least, it hasn't been mentioned by any other characters familiar with the prophecies of the "Prince" / Azor Ahai.

Now, if one accepts "R+L =J" and also accepts that Rhaegar was at least partly acting to bring about the prophecy, there is a question as to why he would have chosen her as the mother despite all attendant obstacles and risks.

IMHO, we are still missing something there. Like - why did Rhaegar suddenly change his mind about himself being the "Prince"? Why did he start to talk about "three heads has the dragon, there must be one more" (paraphrasing)? Was it just that something indicated that the 3 heads must belong to the same generation and Rhaegar himself lacked a third sibling? Was it that nobody else in his family seemed worthy to be one of the 3?

Or was it that for some reason he became convinced that the 3 "heads" must recreate Aegon and his sisters, as naming of his older children would seem to indicate? But then the third child was supposed to be a "Visenya" and _she_ was a warrior. Maybe that explains Rhaegar's choice of Lyanna - as the KOTL she was a rare female warrior herself and may have seemed as a likely mother for a warrior princess.

In any case there is less than ever evidence for Jon being "the promised prince" after AFFC, as he doesn't fit any of the prophecies, or that Rhaegar ever intended him to be one.

[the silent speaker]

The Stark words are "Winter is coming," which suggests a connection to ice.

I did say "not as much".

I have the dried roses from my wedding three years ago. They're dusty and prone to crumbling if I handle them, but they're perfectly intact.

Didn't know that. Still, Lyanna was clutching hers. They still should have crumbled.

[Shewoman]

I have dried flowers from five years ago. They've yet to lose a leaf or petal, and I move them around a lot.

[post menopausal rhino]

Hi, coming out of lurkdom to make my first post

I hoped it meant that R actually loved L, and that later on, when GRRM decides to reveal more to us, we would hear that R would bring L blue roses regularly, and she was clutching the last bunch he gave her before he left for KL and then the Trident.

Just me being a hopeless romantic maybe!

[Gold Storm]

I would like to know if the roses were the same ones that Rhaegar gave her at Harrenhal, or if he went out and got her new ones. If it was the the same roses, she could be thinking about happier times before everything went wrong; or if Rhaegar went out and got her new ones it could mean they had a romantic relationship and he was trying to romance her.

[Shewoman]

Either way, they seem to be a romantic image. The Tower of Joy was in the south; if that's where Rhaegar and Lyanna were all along (and we don't know that for sure), he'd've had a hard time finding blue roses in that area. I think they're a northern flower. So I think she's clutching the crown she received at Harrenhal.

[Gold Storm]

I think that you are right about the the blue rose being a northern one. I was thinking the Ned used a hot spring to build Cat a hot garden for her, that if Rhaegar loved Lyanna, he made her an ice garden in some cave or something like that where he could grow her northern flowers.