Is Cersei pregnant?

[JohnDoe]

Nice thread.

Well, to stay on-topic, I'm with those who think she's fat and pregnant.

But I think her biggest problem in her present situation is Kettleblack's confession that she ordered him to kill the last High Septon. Since she's a widow, I'm not sure she'd be executed for fornication - she might just end up a permanent guest of the Silent Sisters? But if found guilty of conniving the death of the High Septon, short of her champion winning a trial by combat, she'd certainly be for the chop.

On the other hand, I suppose pregnancy as proof of fornication will open a whole can of worms. I think she used sex to tempt Lancel into helping to kill Robert, and I wouldn't be surprised if Lancel felt obliged to confess again to the current High Septon. A charge of fornication would give strength to allegations of incest, and threaten Tommen's throne. Would the Lannisters, led by Kevan, stand by her? The Tyrell's wouldn't after she's tried so hard to have Margaery killed.

And I agree with those who think Jaime is unlikely to try to defend her, especially if she's pregnant.

Who's the father, and whether or not she carries to term, doesn't much impact on any of the above.

So gloriously messy!

[Finn]

There's a lot of mention of her drinking wine in the book, including a few passages that mention her drinking several cups in succession over a short period of time. Why can't she be putting on weight as a reflection of Robert AND be pregnant also?

I'm with those who think she's fat and pregnant.

So gloriously messy!

This is a really great point.

The weight gain could (like the dead chick) *foreshadow* pregnancy rather than function as an indicator of pregnancy.

This solves some of the problems of the bun-in-oven theory. And I like the idea of the weight gain as losing control/reprising Robert a lot better if it's *also* subtly preparing the reader for the possibility of pregnant Cersei.

[Gold Storm]

Nice thread.

Well, to stay on-topic, I'm with those who think she's fat and pregnant.

But I think her biggest problem in her present situation is Kettleblack's confession that she ordered him to kill the last High Septon. Since she's a widow, I'm not sure she'd be executed for fornication - she might just end up a permanent guest of the Silent Sisters? But if found guilty of conniving the death of the High Septon, short of her champion winning a trial by combat, she'd certainly be for the chop.

On the other hand, I suppose pregnancy as proof of fornication will open a whole can of worms. I think she used sex to tempt Lancel into helping to kill Robert, and I wouldn't be surprised if Lancel felt obliged to confess again to the current High Septon. A charge of fornication would give strength to allegations of incest, and threaten Tommen's throne. Would the Lannisters, led by Kevan, stand by her? The Tyrell's wouldn't after she's tried so hard to have Margaery killed.

And I agree with those who think Jaime is unlikely to try to defend her, especially if she's pregnant.

Who's the father, and whether or not she carries to term, doesn't much impact on any of the above.

So gloriously messy!

Thats a great point, Lancel feels very guilty about his affair with Cersei and will or probably already has confessed to High Septon about it. This could be why they grabbed Kettleback and questioned him further about his actions.

[Fatuous]

He doesn't have to 'finish' inside of her for her to get pregnant.

If that was true, Cersei would have had Lancel's baby long before Jaime ever got to King's Landing. Need I draw you a diagram, use a flow chart or describe some other sexual innuendo term?

Now Cersei's fat and pregnant. I guess that's progress.

[shevchenko65]

I'm not saying that she is pregnant with Lancel's baby, I'm just saying that pulling out is not a viable method of birth control.

[Fatuous]

I'm not saying that she is pregnant with Lancel's baby, I'm just saying that pulling out is not a viable method of birth control.

Well, that's now and factual. It works in a fictional society where gelding is a common practice if you don't manage to do it, especially when Queens are involved.

[Finn]

Well, that's now and factual. It works in a fictional society where gelding is a common practice if you don't manage to do it, especially when Queens are involved.

Wha ? Dude, I don't know whether you need a remedial course in sex ed or how "fiction" works.

Sure, this is a fictional world so "pulling out" could be a viable method of birth control; it could also be a world in which men ejaculate sentient strawberry jam. However, it certainly seems to be the case that the biology and physics of sex works the same in Martin's world as it does in the real world. In the real world, "pulling out" is not a viable method of birth control regardless of how "motivated" one is.

[Fatuous]

Wha ? Dude, I don't know whether you need a remedial course in sex ed or how "fiction" works.

Sure, this is a fictional world so "pulling out" could be a viable method of birth control; it could also be a world in which men ejaculate sentient strawberry jam. However, it certainly seems to be the case that the biology and physics of sex works the same in Martin's world as it does in the real world. In the real world, "pulling out" is not a viable method of birth control regardless of how "motivated" one is.

As I said, it worked for Lancel and Tyrion even encouraged him in the moistening of his sister's belly. Are you saying Tyrion doesn't know an effective birth control method when he sees one {"fear of execution" more so than "pulling out". It's amazing how that can really focus one's mind on to the task at hand}? And then there's moon tea but I suppose Cersei wouldn't think of that either.

None of you certainly have.

But this goes back to sex as power and you guys want what? Pregnant, weak Cersei at the hands of her brute of a "little" brother, her valonquer. And you want that to be Jaime rather than Tyrion. Plus, you want the murder to occur because of a pregnancy. Is that about it?

It's a weak chain of events. It's disgusting in terms of the rest of the story because of its inelegant simplicty. You could have Cersei killed because she's as insane as Aerys, as evil as the Others, as ruthless as Euryon Croweye {It's probably going to be a combination of all three, I think she's going to go down hard} and you want her killed by her brother in a jealous rage because she got knocked by someone other than Jaime?

I'm pretty sure he doesn't care anymore.

[shevchenko65]

I'd rather have her killed by an angry/jealous jamie because she got pregnant.

I wasn't aware that Tyrion was an expert on birth control methods.

And these boards are really starving for topics, if we're down to discussing effective and ineffective methods of birth control in Westernos.

[Finn]

As I said, it worked for Lancel and Tyrion even encouraged him in the moistening of his sister's belly. Are you saying Tyrion doesn't know an effective birth control method when he sees one {"fear of execution" more so than "pulling out". It's amazing how that can really focus one's mind on to the task at hand}?

OK. Remedial sex ed it is.

So . . . if you *wanted* to impregnate someone, I would not advise pulling out before the deed is done; it almost certainly decreases the probability of insemination. If you did *not* want to impregnate someone, I also would not recommend the "pulling out" method; the possibility of insemination still exists --and this is the important part-- even if you manage to pull out "in time."

But this goes back to sex as power and you guys want what? Pregnant, weak Cersei at the hands of her brute of a "little" brother, her valonquer. And you want that to be Jaime rather than Tyrion. Plus, you want the murder to occur because of a pregnancy. Is that about it?

It's a weak chain of events. It's disgusting in terms of the rest of the story because of its inelegant simplicty. You could have Cersei killed because she's as insane as Aerys, as evil as the Others, as ruthless as Euryon Croweye {It's probably going to be a combination of all three, I think she's going to go down hard} and you want her killed by her brother in a jealous rage because she got knocked by someone other than Jaime?

That certainly is an ugly straw man you've knocked over. Kudos.

[bastard guidon]

I'm of the opinion she's just getting older and a bit fatter.

Theres a paragraph during the Tommen / Margery wedding where she's staring at Margery thinking "All girls that age look beautiful even peasant girls" and lots of other thoughts that made me think she's getting jealous of these young beauties. I think she's had her fill of men mooning over Sansa too (who she "looked after" for quite some time).

Also from what I'm reading, she's seeing Jaime in a different light too, and as they are twins I take it to mean the two golden Lannister twins are growing older and losing their "shine"... Theres a bit where Loras and Margery are dancing and she compares it to herself and Jaime.

All that glitters is not gold.....poor Cercei's getting old. Since the High Septon has the Queen Regent in his clutches and under the tender care of some dried-up old septas, the truth of the matter will out soon enough. Out...get it?

"You may be right about glory, Sharp, quite right. But. there's one thing to be said for glory.....you can take glory with you when its your time to go."

[dita]

But this goes back to sex as power and you guys want what? Pregnant, weak Cersei at the hands of her brute of a "little" brother, her valonquer. And you want that to be Jaime rather than Tyrion. Plus, you want the murder to occur because of a pregnancy. Is that about it?

It's a weak chain of events. It's disgusting in terms of the rest of the story because of its inelegant simplicty. You could have Cersei killed because she's as insane as Aerys, as evil as the Others, as ruthless as Euryon Croweye {It's probably going to be a combination of all three, I think she's going to go down hard} and you want her killed by her brother in a jealous rage because she got knocked by someone other than Jaime?

I'm pretty sure he doesn't care anymore.

But it's also a very human scenario, isn't it?

If you think about it, Cersei's reasons for killing Robert are also not that heroistic (if you discount for a moment the impending doom that was coming for her incestuous children).

For Cersei it came all down to that very first night in which he called her Lyanna and the fact that he was not Rhaegar. I somehow doubt the twincest children would even exist if it were not for the fact that Robert did not hold up to his wives ideals in men.

I think it would be pretty ironic if she would not be killed for her ruthlessnes or because she is an evil manipulative bitch, who is not even intelligent enough to have the right to be manulative, but for the simple fact that she could not keep her legs closed.

On Jaime's caring or not:

Depends on the situation he is in when (if) he finds out. Did you know that Tyrion would kill his father on the loo? I did not (although i hoped for a similar scenarion).

[A wilding]

I somehow doubt the twincest children would even exist if it were not for the fact that Robert did not hold up to his wives ideals in men.

I think that there are few women whose standards w.r.t. to husbands would be low enough to include Robert. Ones who only cared about being queen perhaps. Cersei was half willing to give Robert a try, but if he ever made any effort at all to make the marriage work we never saw it. But yes, she did go back to Jaime, and conceive Joffrey with him, only after the marriage had failed.

I think it would be pretty ironic if she would not be killed for her ruthlessnes or because she is an evil manipulative bitch, who is not even intelligent enough to have the right to be manulative, but for the simple fact that she could not keep her legs closed.

But that makes sex out to be pleasure for Cersei, when it is mainly a weapon. She primarily opens her legs to buy men, not for pleasure. So a pregnancy would not exactly be ironic, simply an occupational hazard.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

That would indeed seem to put Osney into play, it could even work with the "To Jocelyn she said, 'Tighter. Cinch it tighter, you simpering little fool" on p. 172. though it might be too early for signs to be showing. Incidentally that is the same chapter as the egg incident.

"Might"? When do you imagine the first sexual encounter with Kettleblack took place? If the first encounter was in payment for the death of the High Septon, I hardly see how Cersei could have been showing--going off of the tentative timeline--only about a month after Tywin's funeral, when she first realizes the danger the High Septon poses. According to Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, women generally start to show between weeks 12 and 17, at which point clothes become tighter. It's hard to see how this incident, which occurs too early by a number of weeks, could be an indication of pregnancy if Kettleblack is the father.

[Zoë Sumra]

Not to go TMI on the conversation but I have a friend who's about nine or ten weeks pregnant and who was already complaining of an expanding waistline at six weeks - not due to the baby showing per se but due to hormonal changes etc. making her grow.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Not to go TMI on the conversation but I have a friend who's about nine or ten weeks pregnant and who was already complaining of an expanding waistline at six weeks - not due to the baby showing per se but due to hormonal changes etc. making her grow.

...and that would still be a couple of weeks too early, even assuming that Cersei comes up with her plan right after Kevan leaves dinner, fucks Kettleblack that night, and then has him wait for over a month and a half to kill the High Septon, which strikes me as an unlikely chain of events anyway. More likely, she'd wait for Lancel to leave for Castle Darry so that he can't confess to the new High Septon as well, and Lancel doesn't leave until after Tommen's wedding, when Cersei starts complaining that her clothes are too tight.

[Dimadick]

But Cersei dying at the hands of Jaime -in some way, directly or indirectly - is too good not to be true.

Particularly since she recalls that Melara Hetherspoon taught her to trust nobody, except Jaime. Jaime seeming to be a blind spot for her.

[Mais]

Just thinking about this question again and I seem to recall that when Jamie came back and had sex with Cersei that GRRM stated that she was on her moonsblood. If this is true then she can't be pregnant. We all know that this stops during pregnancy.

[shevchenko65]

The discussion is over whether or not she was knocked up by a Kettleback after that encounter with Jaime. The fact that she was on her period then just means that Lancel definatly would not be the father.

[Cruella_Da_Oz]

You still can get pregnant when on your period, IIRC. It is very unlikely, but not impossible. I remember reading it elsewhere, but it may be wrong info. Then again, even if it's right, I don't think that GRRM either knows it or would use it as a plot point for to-be-miscarried fetus.