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Dharma

Syrio Forel

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Aside from that, what we know about Yoren and his ways of doing his business tells us enough to reasonably predict that he didnt wait for days and days to collect the last three prisoners during the Lannister coup or just after it.

That's an assumption, not something to pinpoint the timeline on. There was a lot of time between the Lannister coup and the beheading, there is no reason to have the three already locked-up in the wagon all that time. It could be, but I see no reason why it must be.

Cybroleach,

Jaqen kill merchant X is caught sentenced to BC, does FM trick scares Rorge, sits in sell. There.

Haven't you noticed hoe good he is? What he is capable of? What his manners are?

I am not claiming he is superman, not at all, but be thrown in the black cells bij beasts as Rorge and Biter does not fit by Jaqen's character at all, imo.

And he is not a minor character, he is someone that completely changes Arya path, he is the faceless man that practically enlists Arya into his "guild". It's like a wizard coming out of nowhere that sees the unlikely talents of Arya and makes sure her talents are awoken. He is no ordinary character, no master thief, no exceptional assassin, he is a skin changer, he is able to change his face. Even in Westeros he would be seen as an oddity. This magical, powerfull, extra-ordinary man needs an explanation at all costs. Not a louzy "tried to kill merchant", that would be out of character.

We now know that he had a huge impact on Arya, we also know he is now Pate, close to the Marwyn mysteries, he is not a minor character at all. He needs an explanation, really. Martin goes at great lengths to explain Gregor's headache, Rorge and Biter's background, and all kind of other little backstories that make the dtory great.

However, he doens't give a backstory for Jaqen. He refuses to tell us definately what happened to Syrio. And futhermore has an even greater role for 'Jaqen' since he is seen at Marwyn's place. Do you think we ultimately get an answer to why Jaqen was in ther black cells, or are you satisfied without an explanation?

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Assumption based on a more relevant information from the books then your assumption based on nothing at all.

Also, again - we never hear about Jaqen scaring the living bejejus out of Rorge and Biter in the black cells or during their trip with Arya.

Also we have no idea when exactly a faceless man took the face of Jaqen.

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Assumption based on a more relevant information from the books then your assumption based on nothing at all.

Do you have a quote or something then, where your assumption is based upon?

Also, again - we never hear about Jaqen scaring the living bejejus out of Rorge and Biter in the black cells or during their trip with Arya.

Should they? Jaqen is chained at that moment iirc.

Also we have no idea when exactly a faceless man took the face of Jaqen.[/

Indeed, that's correct, unfortunately.

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Well, since the author is working from certain viewpoints, he can't write down everything. Sometimes because it is not important, sometimtes because he doesn't want to. There is a reason he doesn't write from Varys or Petyr's point of view.

The reason I come up with a scenario like this, is because it is unexplainable to me why Rorge and Biter are afraid of Jaqen. Why someone as clever as Jaqen, member of the faceless man guild, is in the black cells wihtou us hearing about it (well, that, imo, is Hiding a story behind our back). Something like that needs explanation, just like how grrm explained why Rorge are Biter are in there.

Speaking about Deus Ex Machines, there you have got one, a faceless man pops up out of jail solely to give Arya a coin??? Without giving us any clue where he came from. That's hiding the story with no reason at all. Think about it.

R&B's (Rorge & Biter's) fear of Jaqen is one of those initially surprising facts I call anomalies. R&B are among the fiercest and most vicious people we have the displeasure of meeting in Westeros, so it is initially surprising that two such toughs are afraid of polite, unthreatening Jaqen H'ghar; this is your first anomaly. Jaqen's appearance is your second anomaly, anomalous only in that it lacks a back story (and thus does not prove Jaqen is not Syrio).

I wholeheartedly agree that theories should be devised to explain such anomalies. The best theories explain multiple anomalies while introducing little conjecture that isn't itself well supported by textual hints.

While your first anomaly was originally striking, it is not very surprising in view of our knowledge of the FM. All that's necessary is that R&B knew Jaqen was an FM, and knew enough about FM to fear them. You can conjecture that Jaqen did kill somebody, and/or did steal somebody's face in view of R&B, but that's unsupported conjecture that goes far beyond what is needed to explain their fear. To conjecture yet further Jaqen was Syrio, and that a plurality of gaolers totally shirked their most basic duties, is moving far from canonical moorings and thus creating more anomalies than you're explaining.

R&B's fear may have served as a hint that Jaqen might be very dangerous indeed, despite his polite and nonthreatening manner. It gave Arya reason to respect Jaqen, and thus helped push her toward the FM, and it provided our first clues about the mystique of the FM. None of this seems to require a relationship between Jaqen and Syrio.

As for the overall fact that an FM popped up out of jail to give Arya a coin, I submit that your first paragraph addresses this rather well: Martin can't write the entire backstory of everything, but has to start someplace. It's pretty clear that he wanted Arya to get FM training, and he needed a plausible narrative to explain her doing so. Her long trip with him and Yoren, leading to her saving him, leading to him repaying her to balance the deaths, is a plausible, step-by-step mechanism for Jaqen and Arya to become thoroughly introduced; he sees her as good FM material, she sees that being an FM is good, scaring even R&B. I imagine the House of B&W like to get their recruits young, and Arya seems a near-perfect fit.

So my explanation is that Jaqen's appearance served as the narrative mechanism to put Arys into the world's foremost ninja school in Braavos. First GRRM shows her to be a good candidate (enthusiasm and talent for combat training), then he introduces her to an FM to point her in that direction, and finally he curtails all her other options.

Since introducing Jaqen and Arya is so helpful in moving her to ninja school (which is apparently important, based on the screen time devoted to it); and since R&B's fear serves a number of purposes (Arya high opinion of FM, protection of Arya from R&B, and their cooperation w/r/t, e.g., weasel soup); I do not find a need for any "ulterior" motive for these same facts.

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While your first anomaly was originally striking, it is not very surprising in view of our knowledge of the FM. All that's necessary is that R&B knew Jaqen was an FM, and knew enough about FM to fear them.

You are talking as if these FM are common in Westeros. How should Rorge and Biter have met this type of persons, why would they know anything about faceless men? They have grown up in places where FM are probably quite uncommon. And even if they have heard about FM, hearing something is totally different than seeing someone kill someone and than take over the dead man's face.

R&B's fear may have served as a hint that Jaqen might be very dangerous indeed, despite his polite and nonthreatening manner. It gave Arya reason to respect Jaqen, and thus helped push her toward the FM, and it provided our first clues about the mystique of the FM. None of this seems to require a relationship between Jaqen and Syrio.
I don't particular care about what good the fear was for the story, but why there was fear in the first place. Even if he was stronger, faster and deadlier than Rorge and Biter, they help him doing something, while they know that there is a huge chance to get killed. They look like people that would rather die than be bullied into such behaviour. So, imo, they know what he is capable of, and therefor, they have seen it, or something equally impressive. I can't believe them being scared by words and tales alone.

As for the overall fact that an FM popped up out of jail to give Arya a coin, I submit that your first paragraph addresses this rather well: Martin can't write the entire backstory of everything, but has to start someplace.

Than, if it is such an easy explanation as killing a merchant (or trying), why not just tell us. Like R&B. Why keep it deliberately mysterious. From every person we have seen, this single person is the one that is the most magic and mysterious of them all, why keep us ignorant and tell the much less interesting story of how Rorge raised Biter in a dogfigghting pit?

So my explanation is that Jaqen's appearance served as the narrative mechanism to put Arys into the world's foremost ninja school in Braavos.

But, his story is not over yet, he is now Pate. He apparently has his own story as well, Arya is just a side-story of his.

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ETA - If you'd like me to go over it all again, well, I'll see if I have the time. I'm not sure I see the point, though. It's not going to change your mind, is it? And these arguments do get quite lengthy.

I'd love to hear it, or at least be pointed to threads where I could read about it.

My conclusion is that he is alive, but I don't see why he would need to be Jaqen, or anyone else for that matter.

To me, the scene probably went something like this. Trant comes in with his thugs, Syrio sends Arya away and beats them up, leaving him and Trant. Syrio battles Trant till he's sure that Arya has had enough time to escape, then breaks off the fight and leaves. He's able to do this because Trant is in full plate armor and can't pursue. In the commotion Syrio somehow manages to leave the city, mostly likely via Varys (since he was the one who introduced him to Ned). Trant then tells Cersei that he disposed of Syrio when asked and leaves it at that.

Done. There's no need for him to be a faceless man, there's no need for him to impersonate Trant, there's no need for him to be Varys (though he could be). Now his story is open to be re-introduced if need be since we know he is from Braavos, and Arya is currently in Braavos and in need of something to tie her back to Westeros. Granted she has/had Sam and Dareon who could have done it as well, Syrio could have information related to her family more than just Jon, especially if he has ties to Varys, which he does.

I don't think it would be a deus ex machina at all for Syrio to be reintroduced to Arya's story arc at this point. She's not facing some insurmountable problem that he could give her guidance on.

If there is other evidence to suggest that he died or to refute the scenario I posed I really would like to hear it. I can and have changed my opinion on things when provided with a stronger argument (must be the scientist in me).

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I'd love to hear it, or at least be pointed to threads where I could read about it.

Here are a couple.

Link 1

Link 2

Link 3

Some of these deal with the Syrio = Jaqen theory, but many deal with points you raise in your post.

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Why do folks have trouble with the idea of Syrio dying? He had a good death. He fought valiantly and allowed Arya to escape.

Because there's nothing conclusive to say that he died.

Here are a couple.

Link 1

Link 2

Link 3

Some of these deal with the Syrio = Jaqen theory, but many deal with points you raise in your post.

Yay! Reading material for when I'm bored at work on Friday. Thanks!

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To me, the scene probably went something like this. Trant comes in with his thugs, Syrio sends Arya away and beats them up, leaving him and Trant. Syrio battles Trant till he's sure that Arya has had enough time to escape, then breaks off the fight and leaves. He's able to do this because Trant is in full plate armor and can't pursue. In the commotion Syrio somehow manages to leave the city, mostly likely via Varys (since he was the one who introduced him to Ned). Trant then tells Cersei that he disposed of Syrio when asked and leaves it at that.

Which is fine, except that Trant never even claimed to have disposed of Syrio - he only seems to have said that [syrio] "interfered" and thus prevented Trant from capturing Arya. Just a nitpick.

I don't think it would be a deus ex machina at all for Syrio to be reintroduced to Arya's story arc at this point. She's not facing some insurmountable problem that he could give her guidance on.

If there is other evidence to suggest that he died or to refute the scenario I posed I really would like to hear it. I can and have changed my opinion on things when provided with a stronger argument (must be the scientist in me).

Far from deus ex machina, the reintroduction of Forel and Arya is thoroughly foreshadowed: evidence hints Forel survived, logic directs him to return to his home of Braavos, and the combination of his extraordinary perceptiveness and Arya's very public existence (albeit in an unexpected persona) suggests he would very quickly recognize her.

However, there certainly IS evidence supporting a conclusion that he died: Forel is practically unarmed and is closely engaged with a fully armored knight who has just cut off his practice sword. Syrio cannot easily hurt Trant at the moment, but Trant could kill Syrio instantly with a successful sword strike. These facts constitute evidence that Trant killed Syrio, and frankly it appears on the face of it that Trant has gained the upper hand and Syrio is about to lose his life. Arya drew that conclusion, thinking to herself that Syrio is "probably dead".

Obviously, I believe that the many items of evidence favoring Syrio's survival outweigh the frightening appearance that his life is in serious jeopardy, but I'll argue that case elsewhere.

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Why do folks have trouble with the idea of Syrio dying? He had a good death. He fought valiantly and allowed Arya to escape.

Why do you leap from an observation that some of us think Syrio probably survived, to a conclusion that we have trouble with the idea of Syrio dying? That's just silly. I'm fine with Robb and Ned dying, for example; Syrio being dead would be just fine.

What you apparently fail to realize is that those of us who notice anomalies, such as Syrio moving in to engage an apparently terrifying knight, try to figure out how such anomalies can reasonably be consistent with other facts relevant to an issue, and sometimes from our investigation draw a conclusion that things did not transpire as they initially appeared to. This then causes us to redouble our investigation.

Of course, Sandor died just as the man said, Bran and Rickon were hung on the walls of Winterfell, and Jon is the biological son of Wylla. I can see how you'd be surprised that we challenge the immediately obvious appearance, because, after all, Martin hardly ever misleads the readers ...

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Well shit. From reviewing one of the threads mormont posted, I found this little nugget of insight from Other-In-Law and now I'm convinced that Syrio probably is dead after all.

My whole theory hinged on the idea that Syrio would prefer to escape after occupying Trant long enough to let Arya escape, but after reading the quote below I don't think that's a likely outcome.

One of the funny things about the claim that Syrio would run way, despite his specific words to the contrary, is how it completely ignores the culture of his background. Syrio was a water dancer, the highest status of the bravos, Braavosi swordsmen who strut and swagger through the alleys at night looking for any excuse to fight and kill each other.

Why? Are they suicidal? No, they have merely developed attitudes that are so prideful of their own abilities that they wantonly risk their lives to prove them. Syrio was one of the very best of these, good enough to be a water dancer and survive his tenure as First Sword (perhaps a new Sealord took office, and each one appoints his own First Sword) and go into retirement. So now he's an old man, very skilled, but with what to look forward to exactly? Family? If so, what is he doing in exile in Westeros? He gets a job teaching fencing to the hand's daughter, when events provide him with one last opportunity to really exercise his skill and his fearlessness, defending his client's daughter. He actually starts talking like a bravo, mocking his opponents and declaring that he does not run away from a fight.

Why on earth would he go back on his declaration and the bravo culture that he has lived his life by, just to survive and grow older, watching his teeth fall out one by one? Why wouldn't he embrace the chance to go out in a blaze of glory, like any bravo would dream of? Fighting to the death would hardly be 'stupid' from his perspective, it would simply be continuing to abide by the ethos he's lived his life by.

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Do you have a quote or something then, where your assumption is based upon?

Not one quote no, its a whole series of them from the time Yoren stood before the council, got approval from Eddard the Hand, then days and days passed, then coup happened, then several more days passed until Eddard got beheaded.

“Father asked if there were any knights in the hall who would do honor to their houses by taking the black, but no one came forward, so he gave this Yoren his pick of the king’s dungeons and sent him on his way.

this took place on the council when Eddard sent Beric Dondarrion to bring the Mountain to justice.

When Yoren grabs Arya at Eddards execution he already had all the men ready to move.

“Here’s something you don’t know. It wasn’t supposed to happen like it did. I was set to leave, wagons bought and loaded, and a man comes with a boy for me, and a purse of coin, and a message, never mind who it’s from. Lord Eddard’s to take the black, he says to me, wait, he’ll be going with you. Why d’you think I was there? Only something went queer.”

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Haven't you noticed hoe good he is? What he is capable of? What his manners are?

I am not claiming he is superman, not at all, but be thrown in the black cells bij beasts as Rorge and Biter does not fit by Jaqen's character at all, imo.

Actually we really have little evidece how good he is he assinates three unassming unguarded men and orcastrates a jailbrake. That harldy qualifies him as as the be all end all of assination. Regardless saying him getting caught is 'out of character' is a logical falicy such a profession always has that risk GRRM doesn't creat a perfect warrior but he has a perfect killer. Since we don't know such events that led to his capture you can't dismiss it as out of character unless you're suggesting he is impossible to catch.

And he is not a minor character, he is someone that completely changes Arya path, he is the faceless man that practically enlists Arya into his "guild". It's like a wizard coming out of nowhere that sees the unlikely talents of Arya and makes sure her talents are awoken. He is no ordinary character, no master thief, no exceptional assassin, he is a skin changer, he is able to change his face. Even in Westeros he would be seen as an oddity. This magical, powerfull, extra-ordinary man needs an explanation at all costs. Not a louzy "tried to kill merchant", that would be out of character.

We now know that he had a huge impact on Arya, we also know he is now Pate, close to the Marwyn mysteries, he is not a minor character at all. He needs an explanation, really. Martin goes at great lengths to explain Gregor's headache, Rorge and Biter's background, and all kind of other little backstories that make the dtory great.

However, he doens't give a backstory for Jaqen. He refuses to tell us definately what happened to Syrio. And futhermore has an even greater role for 'Jaqen' since he is seen at Marwyn's place. Do you think we ultimately get an answer to why Jaqen was in ther black cells, or are you satisfied without an explanation?

I will agree it is a nagging question that I hope will eventually get addressed. For arguements Syrio is Jaqen we still need the backstory of why he came to KL, found out about Arya, placed himself as her guardian, then dumped her with a coin.

I will also admit of the 3 theories of how he could possible survive it's the only one that has something of support in the text however the text also has alot stronger evidence against it, but something is stronger than nothing which is all that can be said of Syrio is Meryn or Syrio pops into thin air.

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Guest Other-in-Law

Well shit. From reviewing one of the threads mormont posted, I found this little nugget of insight from Other-In-Law and now I'm convinced that Syrio probably is dead after all.

Glad to be of assistance. ;)

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Smiling knight,

Father asked if there were any knights in the hall who would do honor to their houses by taking the black, but no one came forward, so he gave this Yoren his pick of the kings dungeons and sent him on his way.

Thanks for the quotes, but it doesn't say anything. He sent Yoren on his way, to do the thing Yoren still wanted to do. Apparently, when Ned gave him the pick of the dungeons, he still had to buy the wagons. And what about recruiting? Maybe buying other things as well?

Heres something you dont know. It wasnt supposed to happen like it did. I was set to leave, wagons bought and loaded, and a man comes with a boy for me, and a purse of coin, and a message, never mind who its from. Lord Eddards to take the black, he says to me, wait, hell be going with you. Why dyou think I was there? Only something went queer.

Maybe it's how I want to see it, but this quote looks to me as if Yoren is already ready to leave, and that the wait implied that he has to wait short, not another week or something. Because waiting all packed up with a wagons loaded and food buoght is one thing if it's just a couple of days, but if it's more than a week, it's a different story. He has the lower level of KingsLanding around him, thieves, beggars, etc. And a couple of monsters in a wagon, I have a hard time seeing him keep that in control sitting idle in KingsLanding. But I know, it is no evidence for anything, just saying it can be read both ways.

Actually we really have little evidece how good he is he assinates three unassming unguarded men and orcastrates a jailbrake. That harldy qualifies him as as the be all end all of assination. Regardless saying him getting caught is 'out of character' is a logical falicy such a profession always has that risk GRRM doesn't creat a perfect warrior but he has a perfect killer. Since we don't know such events that led to his capture you can't dismiss it as out of character unless you're suggesting he is impossible to catch.

Well, he clearly was caught, but I can't see him getting caught for a minor thing. He is able to set a dog upon his master, he can easiliy deceive Pate, and he has made Rorge and Biter afraid of him. He is confident enought to let Arya name three names, even if it is the king. If he got caught that easily, there is no need to claim so certainly that he can kill kings and the like, if he just failed in his previous mission...

On the other hand, if Jaqen was Syrio, his confidence is still credible. He got caught because he did a noble thing, but immediately did the right thing to escape the black cells (unfortunately he is locked up in a wagon), but the Wall would give him freedom. But even than, in that cage he didn't fail, he made sure he was trusted by Arya (that is a hard thing to do when you are in a cage with monsters). And allright, he had to be rescued by Arya, but still, he didn't fail in one of his missions. He probably did the only thing he could do to stay 'alive'. He can still claim he can kill anyone, since his black cell accident hadn't anything to do with failing, only with bad luck, and he made the best of it, apparently.

I will agree it is a nagging question that I hope will eventually get addressed. For arguements Syrio is Jaqen we still need the backstory of why he came to KL, found out about Arya, placed himself as her guardian, then dumped her with a coin.

My theory is that he was already there to kill Jon Arryn (but let's not get into that at this moment). And knowing about the viper's nest that KingsLanding is, it is not a strange thing to have one of your 'agents' already in place. I think it is strange that the first sword of Braavos came all the way over the sea to teach little girls how to dance.

I will also admit of the 3 theories of how he could possible survive it's the only one that has something of support in the text however the text also has alot stronger evidence against it, but something is stronger than nothing which is all that can be said of Syrio is Meryn or Syrio pops into thin air.

Well, that's at least something :-)

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Well shit. From reviewing one of the threads mormont posted, I found this little nugget of insight from Other-In-Law and now I'm convinced that Syrio probably is dead after all.

One of the funny things about the claim that Syrio would run way, despite his specific words to the contrary, is how it completely ignores the culture of his background. Syrio was a water dancer, the highest status of the bravos, Braavosi swordsmen who strut and swagger through the alleys at night looking for any excuse to fight and kill each other.

Why? Are they suicidal? No, they have merely developed attitudes that are so prideful of their own abilities that they wantonly risk their lives to prove them. Syrio was one of the very best of these, good enough to be a water dancer and survive his tenure as First Sword (perhaps a new Sealord took office, and each one appoints his own First Sword) and go into retirement. So now he's an old man, very skilled, but with what to look forward to exactly? Family? If so, what is he doing in exile in Westeros? He gets a job teaching fencing to the hand's daughter, when events provide him with one last opportunity to really exercise his skill and his fearlessness, defending his client's daughter. He actually starts talking like a bravo, mocking his opponents and declaring that he does not run away from a fight.

Why on earth would he go back on his declaration and the bravo culture that he has lived his life by, just to survive and grow older, watching his teeth fall out one by one? Why wouldn't he embrace the chance to go out in a blaze of glory, like any bravo would dream of? Fighting to the death would hardly be 'stupid' from his perspective, it would simply be continuing to abide by the ethos he's lived his life by.

My whole theory hinged on the idea that Syrio would prefer to escape after occupying Trant long enough to let Arya escape, but after reading the quote below I don't think that's a likely outcome.

Ah. So Syrio WAS suicidal - his goal was to go out in a blaze of glory. Compelling argument.

Except - don't bravos prefer to win? It's likely that Syrio has never LOST a sword fight. So he's going to reverse himself in his paramount quest - WINNING fights - in order to avoid reversing himself in terms of his bravo culture? And this is an argument that Syrio will remain consistent?

This "bravo culture" that controls Syrio's actions is OiL's invention - not merely unsupported speculation, it's contrary to a logical interpretation of the textual facts. We know bravos challenge, strut, and boast, but OiL's take is that they ARE suicidal (er, I mean, "wantonly risk their lives"), challenging at every opportunity to prove fearlessness. But techniques to avoid fights are canon (e.g., don't touch your sword, etc.), and discretion is a logical necessity or there'd be very few bravos. Terro and Orbelo would gladly have challenged fat Sam, but not the First Sword; and so it goes. Only the soon-to-die fail to exercise discretion. It simply cannot be a part of bravo culture to compulsively challenge against insuperable odds.

Syrio attributes his success to perceptiveness, and that would include appraising his enemies. However "bravo culture" might be correctly defined by one privileged to know, Syrio isn't a blind adherent to "bravo culture", but an individual with principles that have enabled him to survive long enough to lose his hair (50?). His skill and discretion have kept him from entering losing fights for a very long time.

I agree with OiL to this extent: Syrio is likely to continue the habits of a lifetime. It is clearly his habit is to win all the fights he enters.

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Thanks for the quotes, but it doesn't say anything. He sent Yoren on his way, to do the thing Yoren still wanted to do. Apparently, when Ned gave him the pick of the dungeons, he still had to buy the wagons. And what about recruiting? Maybe buying other things as well?

What we know of Yoren is that he is brutally efficient and doesnt waste time.

We can reasonably assume that he went to business as soon as he got the approval.

The selection of prisoners should not have taken him longer then one day, getting the wagons and supplies another day or two. Allow for another few days theoretically for various accidental delays.

Say a week all together.

Then the coup happens.

I dont think its reasonable to assume that Yoren took prisoners from the cells during the coup or after it.

His orders were given by Eddard Stark who is now a traitor and dispossessed of power.

Surely no one would allow him to take additional prisoners now, after the power shift, without checking who he wants to take away, right?

So, reasonably - we must conclude he took the prisoners before the coup and was finishing with other preparations while the coup was happening.

But even if he somehow didnt and got those last three during the coup or just after it still leaves several logical problems in how to explain how Syrio knew which prisoners face to take and why did he choose that instead of just taking any other face - which wouldnt get him into chains and the cage.

I tell you, i liked that theory myself, even posted a theory how Syrio was wounded by Trant, then left to die or was mistaken for dead - Trant leaving him to chase after Arya, which would later on get Syrio into cells as one of the prisoners (after someone checked all bodies and discovered he is wounded but still alive)...

But things just dont add up.

He had no way of knowing where Arya will end up. Not even Yoren knew until the last minute so Syrio/Jaqen couldnt have decided to follow her and so on, and so on.

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What we know of Yoren is that he is brutally efficient and doesnt waste time.

We can reasonably assume that he went to business as soon as he got the approval.

The selection of prisoners should not have taken him longer then one day, getting the wagons and supplies another day or two. Allow for another few days theoretically for various accidental delays.

Say a week all together.

That's an assumption as well, we don't know how long it takes to prepare a journey accross the world with a pack of ignorant travellers. Or what other bussinesses (if any) he had to do in KingsLanding, is it so farfetched to think that he had more to do? Or is there something in the books that rule out any delays?

Surely no one would allow him to take additional prisoners now, after the power shift, without checking who he wants to take away, right?

Why not, they take the black, they are still prisoners. I really can't see how the power shift can affect such a thing. And most of all the three black cell animals, why does anyone want to keep those three?

So, reasonably - we must conclude he took the prisoners before the coup and was finishing with other preparations while the coup was happening.

To me, it's not a reasonable conclusion at all. It could be, but it also could be the other way around. There is nothing conclusive about this.

But even if he somehow didnt and got those last three during the coup or just after it still leaves several logical problems in how to explain how Syrio knew which prisoners face to take and why did he choose that instead of just taking any other face - which wouldnt get him into chains and the cage.

Because, as a dangerous traitor not of noble blood he is thrown in the black cells. Than he had three options, no idea why he choose this one, maybe because he had about the same build as him (but I don't know if that is the case). But to be able to skinchange into Jaqen, he also had to made sure the death body was unrecognisable.

He had no way of knowing where Arya will end up. Not even Yoren knew until the last minute so Syrio/Jaqen couldnt have decided to follow her and so on, and so on.

As a matter in fact, I don't think Jaqen was there for Arya, he was there because it was his only way out of a certain death. That he met Arya again was a coincequence, nothing more, he just wanted to get to the wall and get free.

I tell you, i liked that theory myself

Than, I think, there is still a chance to get you in the Jaqen=Syrio camp.

Close your eyes.

Get, filthy as it is, in Rorge's mind. Go back to the point when you found the little boy, Biter you have called him. Think back at the time how you enjoyed the dog fights, fights in generally, how you love violence, how you laugh at the death. Think also how you enjoy to lead, how you are proud about your non-existant conscience. Go to Harrenhall, and your feelings when seeing Jaqen, you trembled, you was afraid, and you willingly let yourself lead into a figth you didn't choose yourself. This one person, all alone, without friends, commanded you. How did that happen? You are a self-made monster, and proud of it, but turned into a scared little lamb. What was it again, what happened to you? Had it something to do with violence? But you love violence, you thrive on it. Did he do an remarkable trick, totally unheard of like controlling your mind? No, than he would be a skinchanger, he is a faceless man remember. Do you know what they are capable of, what their name is all about? Remember your companion in the black cells, formerly known to love violence as much as you do. Remember it now? Remember that day when that new prisoner came in? Don't look away, the scary Jaqen is gone, think about flowers, you don't have to be afraid anymore.

Open your eyes. Now you know. The door is open, come on over.

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Sigh,... At this point i would rather stab you in the liver and be done with it all,

but i cant, unfortunately, so ill write one more short and sharp message.

:)

Its obvious that you just want to believe in the idea of Syrio=Jaqen so much that youll take unreasonable and unsubstantiated excuses over reasonable and generally backed up, sensible observations about characters and realistic time tables.

Youre just inventing things that dont make any sense.

Suddenly Yoren goes off just gallivanting over Kings Landing against everything we know about him as a character and mysterious unknown events delay him.

Suddenly he cannot collect a dozen criminals and arrange necessities for the trip even if he spent almost all his life (or was it something like twenty years) doing just that all the frigging time.

Then he goes into the Red keep in the middle of the fighting or after it and just releases whoever he likes from the prison, no one asking him anything. But by miracle he chooses only the three, not taking any Starks, northerners or other that Lannisters wouldnt like to set loose at that time.

With allowance given by a traitor - who is in those cells too. But Yoren doesnt take Eddard, even if nobody would have anything against that. Because they dont care. And everyone is ok with that.

And by miracle Syrio chose to take the face of Jaqen so he could stay a prisoner in black cells, one probably destined to be executed. That was his grand plan.

Or he miraculously knew that Jaqen is going to be taken north. How? who knows?

By accident.

I dont mean to offend. I just cant think seriously about such logic.

But when i start thinking that someone imagines Martins logic as such... my head starts to hurt.

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