The ethics of "free" e-books

[Multaniette]

[quote]Not clear what you’re saying here. The library [i]pays[/i] the author. When you “freely” copy an electronic text the author doesn’t get paid, which is the topic of this thread. (But maybe I misunderstand you and you were comparing different things.)[/quote]

Not necessarily. e-books are often scanned from hardcopies - in this case the person who buys the original hardcopy and makes it available to others is analogous to the library.

[Happy Ent]

[quote name='Multaniette' post='1452140' date='Jul 23 2008, 13.30']e-books are often scanned from hardcopies - in this case the person who buys the original hardcopy and makes it available to others is analogous to the library.[/quote]
... maybe a library that (1) doesn’t ask the author or publisher [i]permission[/i] to hand out the book and (2) pays them a negligible fraction of the amount all other libraries pay.

That’s not a library.

[Shevchyk]

[quote name='Happy Ent' post='1452151' date='Jul 23 2008, 06.46']... maybe a library that (1) doesn’t ask the author or publisher [i]permission[/i] to hand out the book and (2) pays them a negligible fraction of the amount all other libraries pay.

That’s not a library.[/quote]

That's the internet.

[Mister Manticore]

Wait, I thought the Internets were all about Porn.

Have I been using it wrong?

[The Pita]

No, you've been using it right.
Everyone on this thread has been using it wrong.
[i]Nerds[/i]

[Shevchyk]

Porn and bitching about movies, Manticore.

And the BBC. The Beeb secretly owns the internet. Don't tell anyone.

[Multaniette]

[quote name='Happy Ent' post='1452151' date='Jul 23 2008, 16.46']... maybe a library that (1) doesn’t ask the author or publisher [i]permission[/i] to hand out the book and (2) pays them a negligible fraction of the amount all other libraries pay.

That’s not a library.[/quote]

1. Libararies 'ask' authors and publishers permission before stocking their books?
2. Not necessarily.

[back_packn]

[quote name='Intercept' post='1451726' date='Jul 22 2008, 22.38']In my opinion it's really no different from me going to the library. The difference is simply the convenience.[/quote]

Not the only difference. The library has a limited copies of a book, usually 1 or 2, therefore readership of those books is very limited. An illegal ebook can be downloaded and read by millions simultaneously.

[Mister Manticore]

[quote name='Shevchyk' post='1452227' date='Jul 23 2008, 07.59']And the BBC. The Beeb secretly owns the internet. Don't tell anyone.[/quote]

Well, at least I don't have to worry about all those embarrassing moments being kept forever then.

[Wilf]

[quote name='Geddon' post='1449446' date='Jul 21 2008, 21.33']I believe that people are generally honest and are happy to pay for things as long as the following conditions are met:
[list]
[*]The product they are buying is as good or better than the free version they can find
[*]They feel the price is fair
[*]They believe the money they are spending is ending up with the right people (i.e. the creative talent rather than the corporate suits)
[/list][/quote]

I think Geddon is right on the money here. With the most important of those three being that the price is fair.

Even someone like me who being Dutch pirates everything he can, has started to buy and pay for music once the price they ask for it became reasonable. Sadly the prices for movies and games are still far from reasonable.

That's the great thing about books. multiple hours of fun for a tenner...now that's a good deal!

[Happy Ent]

[quote name='Wilf' post='1452461' date='Jul 23 2008, 17.23']Even someone like me who being Dutch pirates everything he can, has started to buy and pay for music once the price they ask for it became reasonable. Sadly the prices for movies and games are still far from reasonable.[/quote]
Explain [i]reasonable[/i]. Say, how many cafe lattes should a song of music cost? (Takes the same time to consume initially, can be re-listened.)

Do you mean reasonable from the consumer’s point of view, or from the producer’s? (For example, should a [i]Prince[/i] album be a lot cheaper than Schütz’s Easter Oriatorium simply because many, many more people will buy it, so the content provider’s interests are satisfied by paying much less?)

I’m [i]really[/i] curious. Really. Please define [i]reasonable[/i].

[Joe Abercrombie]

[quote name='Happy Ent' post='1452787' date='Jul 23 2008, 17.33']I’m [i]really[/i] curious. Really. Please define [i]reasonable[/i].[/quote]
Me, in a massive fucking house.

[Peadar]

[quote name='Joe Abercrombie' post='1452839' date='Jul 23 2008, 18.53']Me, in a massive fucking house.[/quote]

We call those brothels :leaving:

[The Pita]

Don't walk away
We've all been there.

[Peadar]

[quote name='The Pita Enigma' post='1452903' date='Jul 23 2008, 19.19']Don't walk away
We've all been there.[/quote]

Joe's House?

[The Pita]

In a sense of the word.

[Zoë Sumra]

[quote name='Happy Ent' post='1451141' date='Jul 22 2008, 20.48']As for tactile sensations or aesthetics, nobody is kidding me. For (say) 1000$ (a small investment for a bibliophile) I could easily imagine an e-book reader that is much nicer than 99.99% of all books ever sold. By the way, most books are [i]crap[/i]. I actually enjoy well-produced books. Canvas or leather hardbacks, smythe sewn, book-mark, etc. I pay attention to typefaces and ligatures, to margin sizes, to paper quality, etc. Thus, almost every book I buy is a disappointment. If I could buy a sleek gizmo that actually is a joy to handle, the physical pleasure of reading an e-book would be manifold the joy I get from handling a book: basically [i]I[/i] get to decide the quality of the reading experience when I shell out the money for a really classy device (leather! ultra-expensive electronic ink! or shiny-shiny chrome! or it could be pink!), instead of having such issues decided by the publisher on a book-by-book basis.[/quote]
Sleek gizmo =/= joy to handle, when it comes to a book. I pay attention to paper quality and typeface as much as the next typesetter, but for me, a book is a joy to handle when I can curl up in some cushions with it and feel paper crackling under my fingers, as opposed to squinting at words on an inappropriately sized LCD screen. In addition - do dedicated e-book readers come with scroll down or page down? I've never used one so wouldn't know. Scroll down only would be a deal-breaker for me, as would any other screen-related issue likely to cause headaches.

A pay-for-ebook model depends upon universal availability. I admit I read [i]The Hedge Knight[/i] via a copied e-book because I couldn't find Legends in Britain, in either a physical or electronic format. In my experience, I've also been unable to find a wide range of MP3s on sale in Britain, hence I buy CDs. I think I'll be buying books for a long time on that basis alone.

Historically, there has been a high acceptance of free consumption of books. In the argument about libraries and payments to authors, I don't believe anyone said explicitly that the key is that libraries are free to the user. At the last Eastercon, Gaiman made the point that virtually no one discovers their favourite author by buying one of their books: buying comes second to borrowing from friends or libraries. I can't count the money I've dropped on full series by authors discovered via lending.

I believe, though, that this is tied to the idea of a book as an artefact - something far less ephemeral than music, for instance - and if the model of consumption changes to an electronic format, literature may lose some of its value with the loss of physical product.

[Geddon]

[quote name='Eloisa' post='1453448' date='Jul 24 2008, 00.18']Sleek gizmo =/= joy to handle, when it comes to a book. I pay attention to paper quality and typeface as much as the next typesetter, but for me, a book is a joy to handle when I can curl up in some cushions with it and feel paper crackling under my fingers, as opposed to squinting at words on an inappropriately sized LCD screen.[/quote]

I'm not sure that the manufacturers can address the [i]paper crackling[/i] issue but they've already fixed the [i]squinting at words on an inappropriately sized LCD screen[/i] problem. They stopped using LCDs and created a new type of display that is as easy to read as ink on paper.

Also, the text on most of these devices can be resized on the fly - normal to large print size at the touch of a button. Hence no more squinting, the added accessibility is one of the advantages of electronic readers over print books.

[quote name='Eloisa' post='1453448' date='Jul 24 2008, 00.18']In addition - do dedicated e-book readers come with scroll down or page down? I've never used one so wouldn't know. Scroll down only would be a deal-breaker for me, as would any other screen-related issue likely to cause headaches.[/quote]

They use a page metaphor. You press a button and the next (or previous) page is displayed.

[quote name='Eloisa' post='1453448' date='Jul 24 2008, 00.18']A pay-for-ebook model depends upon universal availability. I admit I read [i]The Hedge Knight[/i] via a copied e-book because I couldn't find Legends in Britain, in either a physical or electronic format. In my experience, I've also been unable to find a wide range of MP3s on sale in Britain, hence I buy CDs. I think I'll be buying books for a long time on that basis alone.[/quote]

You are probably right there. Even if publishers really get on board with the idea of eBooks and release all new titles in that format it will still take a very long time to digitise all the old books.

On the other hand the publishers will already have digital copies of many books that have gone out of print. The negligible cost of converting them to eBooks (compared to setting up a new print run) will mean that those less commercially successful works will become available again.

[quote name='Eloisa' post='1453448' date='Jul 24 2008, 00.18']Historically, there has been a high acceptance of free consumption of books. In the argument about libraries and payments to authors, I don't believe anyone said explicitly that the key is that libraries are free to the user. At the last Eastercon, Gaiman made the point that virtually no one discovers their favourite author by buying one of their books: buying comes second to borrowing from friends or libraries. I can't count the money I've dropped on full series by authors discovered via lending.

I believe, though, that this is tied to the idea of a book as an artefact - something far less ephemeral than music, for instance - and if the model of consumption changes to an electronic format, literature may lose some of its value with the loss of physical product.[/quote]

Yes, there will have to be a shift in perception. At the moment people attach value to the physical item, they will have to be convinced that what they are actually buying is access to the content between the covers. If they can't be convinced of this then getting them to pay for eBooks will be difficult.

Regarding eBook libraries; I envisage there would be some sort of compensation system for creators. Libraries would have to purchase a specific number of licenses for digital copies to be loaned out to patrons and that money would go to the publisher and author. I also don't think that charging for eBook loans is an unworkable idea. After all most libraries already make small rental charges for CDs and DVDs. The key is to make the charge small enough that people don't baulk at paying it.

[HammerOfGod]

[quote name='Happy Ent' post='1450760' date='Jul 22 2008, 12.19'][i]Ethically and morally wrong[/i]? With a straight face? C’mon. If “something happens” to your hardcovers, you’re expected to buy them over and over again. If something happened to your vinyl LPs (like, playing them more than 20 times) you were expected to buy them again. That was [i]ethically wrong[/i]?[/quote]

I have purchased all the books of {The Wheel of Time} except Knife of Dreams three times...I still have the original Knife of Dreams...I also purchased all the audio books of the series...the Audio book of Lord of Chaos was $200...yes I have supported TOR quite well...I just downloaded several e-books from Tor that are free....Tor has some kind of promotion going on this month and they are giving away a whole shitload of novels in e-book format...

Mistborn is the very first book...

[Tom the Merciful]

This is a very tricky topic and can be discussed over pages and pages with no real coclusion.
For myself, I can say that yes, I have downloaded or got in other way some ebooks, but I can honestly tell you that I never read any of those except the one I downloaded legally - Scott Adams' God's Debris.
I just love to own the real stuff and I have no problems paying up to 20$ for a hardcover or 10$ for a paperback.

That said, let's see into the problem. Copyright infringement is a criminal act in my country and probably in most countries of the World. This means that by making, dealing, using or storing copies of a copyrighted work of art, you are in theory becoming a criminal. However, there's always the issue of social danger, so nobody will prosecute you if you own few illegally copied movies, books or music albums. So, having the criminal issue out of the way, we can talk about ethics.

Here I see that the main issue could be moral justification of such an act. Theoretically, a Fraud Triangle consists of three things - mentioned justification, opportunity and motivation. Internet makes it possible for everyone to download or share a copy of a book, so the opportunity is there in most cases. Motivation is also not an issue, as there is always enough promotion out there to motivate you to purchase something. So, let's speak of justification.

If you think that it's unfair to release books in MMP one year after hardcovers or you think that the price of 30$ for a book is excessive, you are at least half way to justifying eventual illegal actions. I can agree that corporations are greedy and that the way they behave is unethical, but they always argue in the following way: "If copyright is not ensured there will be loss of jobs or, at least, lack of new openings." This is not completely valid as nobody's doing anything to create new jobs, but to increase profits. That said, whenever you hear anything about social responsibility of corporations, think twice. Corporations are not here to be socially responsible, but to create profits.
On the other hand, our whole economy today is based on certain premises. Everything would be simpler and cheaper if an author could print his book and sell it. Then, additional players in the chain would not be needed. But we need editors in real world. Editors need secretaries. Print houses need marketing. Publishers also need marketing. This means there have to be two marketing directors with many employees, including PR, promotion managers, product managers,... They all need offices that need to be cleaned and refurbished from time to time. There are also accountants and controlling people who take care of finances. Publishers also take loans some time from banks who charge interest.......

In the end, you are paying for all that. Fair? Maybe not, but how do you earn your salary? Are you producing and selling something?
You get the point. Contemprary capitalism does not look fair on the outside. But it works and we're all part of the game.

So, try to minimize your illegal actions. If only to protect yourself.