The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)

[kungtotte]

[quote name='BericD' post='1632147' date='Dec 28 2008, 16.41']3. The books repeatedly compare Jon's looks to Ned. That is one of the reasons that Cat despises him so much. He is a constant reminder to her of Ned's betrayal.[/quote]
Ned's sister would presumably be similar in appearance to him.
Jon is described to look like Ned.
Arya is described to look like Jon/Ned.
Ned mentions that Arya has Lyanna's look.

This is far from evidence of the theory, of course, but Jon's looks being similar to Ned's isn't going to refute it either.

[quote]5. How long was L gone before Ned found her in the tower? Maybe Eddard + L = Jon[/quote]
Dude, what? Saint Ned, the most honourable man in Westeros, fucked his [i]sister[/i]?

[Piper]

[quote name='BericD' post='1632147' date='Dec 28 2008, 10.41']2. Having Jon by another woman was one of the flaws that made Eddard human. If we are to find out that all this time he was protecting his sister's child, I might puke. He may have to be risen to the title of Saint Eddard. Some of the best aspects of GRRM's books are that his characters are all flawed.[/quote]

Ned will never be a Saint, given his last words. He betrayed his honor when he lied and told the world that Joffery was the true king. He's flawed, either way.

[quote]5. How long was L gone before Ned found her in the tower? Maybe Eddard + L = Jon[/quote]

Lyanna was taken before the war started. Ned finds her after he lifts the seige of Storm's end. I think that's over a year between when they would have seen each other. There also aren't any clues suggesting they had that sort o relationship. This dog won't hunt.

[SFDanny]

[quote name='BericD' post='1632147' date='Dec 28 2008, 10.41']Just got done reading the Tower of the Hand summary on Jon's parents. Pretty fascinating stuff. Although it could be possible, I still don't think that the text supports the fact that L+R= Jon.

1. We get clues that both Ned and Cat have previously loved before they were married, but grew to love each other. It is also clear that they do fall in love and that Eddard is ashamed of his fathering Jon. If L+R= Jon, at some point Ned could have easily let Cat in on the secret. The fact that he didn't after fathering 5 other children with her and entrusting her with everything, tells me that the L+R= J theory isn't correct.[/quote] Ned tells us he lied and those lies cost him and those he loved dearly, so how does Ned not telling Catelyn (a lie of omission) about Jon's true parentage rule out this theory? Just what in his relationship with Catelyn, other than Jon's birth, is a candidate for a lie that hurts Catelyn and costs Ned great pain in keeping it a secret? You, of course, could be right that Lyanna and Rhaegar ≠ Jon, but your argument doesn't lend much support for that conclusion.

[quote name='BericD' post='1632147' date='Dec 28 2008, 10.41']2. Having Jon by another woman was one of the flaws that made Eddard human. If we are to find out that all this time he was protecting his sister's child, I might puke. He may have to be risen to the title of Saint Eddard. Some of the best aspects of GRRM's books are that his characters are all flawed.[/quote] So betraying his best friend, the king, lying to his wife and children for 14 years about Jon, lying to Jon and not telling him he might be the rightful king of Westeros, allowing Jon to go take vows that would strip him of his rightful inheritance, etc. etc. make him into a [i]saint[/i]?

[quote name='BericD' post='1632147' date='Dec 28 2008, 10.41']3. The books repeatedly compare Jon's looks to Ned. That is one of the reasons that Cat despises him so much. He is a constant reminder to her of Ned's betrayal.[/quote]Right. Now this shows how Ned's lies hurt Catelyn and how the shame of having a bastard raised in Winterfell as an equal with his trueborn children threatens his marriage. Just how does this support your conclusion in point one?

[quote name='BericD' post='1632147' date='Dec 28 2008, 10.41']4. Finally, I will go and re-read AGOT, but it seemed to me that Cat was the one that was pushing for Jon to go to the wall. Didn't Ned suggest that Jon could go to King's Landing with him, and Cat protested because it would cause people to think ill of her? If L+R= Jon, then Ned would be a fool to take Jon to King's Landing.[/quote] Cat was not pushing for Jon to go to the Wall. Maester Aemon brings it up, and Cat purposefully keeps her mouth shut to allow Ned to come to the conclusion by himself that this is the best course of action. Also Ned is the one who objects to taking Jon south with him, not Catelyn. You're right that if L+R=J is true, then Ned would be a fool to take him to King's Landing, and given that it is Ned who raises the objection to this course it tends to support the theory. Catelyn only says Jon can't stay with her.

[quote name='BericD' post='1632147' date='Dec 28 2008, 10.41']5. How long was L gone before Ned found her in the tower? Maybe Eddard + L = Jon[/quote]The war lasts about a year. Unless Ned meets up secretly with Lyanna in the midst of the war, he can't be the father of a child with his sister. This is crackpot territory.

[knightsking]

There is a strong possibility that R+L=J, but there is not enough details of the tourney at Harenhall to be conclusive.
?+L=J I am 100% sure is true. Not yet convinced R is Jon's father. Plus whenever there are milk brothers involved there is the possibility for baby swapping.
R+L=J I am 95% convinced is true.

[BericD]

[quote name='SFDanny' post='1632379' date='Dec 28 2008, 15.04']Ned tells us he lied and those lies cost him and those he loved dearly, so how does Ned not telling Catelyn (a lie of omission) about Jon's true parentage rule out this theory? Just what in his relationship with Catelyn, other than Jon's birth, is a candidate for a lie that hurts Catelyn and costs Ned great pain in keeping it a secret? You, of course, could be right that Lyanna and Rhaegar ≠ Jon, but your argument doesn't lend much support for that conclusion.[/quote]

Like I said in my earlier post, it doesn't rule out any other theory. It just doesn't make any sense. Ned could have cleared up any misconception with her easily enough. It makes more sense that Ned didn't talk about Jon's mother because he was ashamed of his actions.

[quote]So betraying his best friend, the king, lying to his wife and children for 14 years about Jon, lying to Jon and not telling him he might be the rightful king of Westeros, allowing Jon to go take vows that would strip him of his rightful inheritance, etc. etc. make him into a [i]saint[/i]?[/quote]

In regard to Jon's rightful inheritance, what rightful inheritance did he have? As far as Ned was concerned, Robb, Bran, Rickon were in line to inherit Winterfell. And no sane person would have believed that given the circumstances Jon would ever inherit anything from his alleged Targ bloodlines.

[quote]Cat was not pushing for Jon to go to the Wall. Maester Aemon brings it up, and Cat purposefully keeps her mouth shut to allow Ned to come to the conclusion by himself that this is the best course of action. Also Ned is the one who objects to taking Jon south with him, not Catelyn. You're right that if L+R=J is true, then Ned would be a fool to take him to King's Landing, and given that it is Ned who raises the objection to this course it tends to support the theory. Catelyn only says Jon can't stay with her.[/quote]

Thanks, I didn't remember that sequence of events that well.

[quote]The war lasts about a year. Unless Ned meets up secretly with Lyanna in the midst of the war, he can't be the father of a child with his sister. This is crackpot territory.[/quote]

I agree, it was a poor attempt at humor. One of the reasons I like GRRM is because of his originality and up until the last book, his ability to not be cliche'. If L+R= J, it would be an incredibly cheesy slight of hand by GRRM. R +L = J is the stuff of soap operas not good literature. Unfortunately, in AFFC we got some inclination that he is not above the Batmanesque cliffhanger endings with Arya and Brienne.

[Shewoman]

kungbruce, Ned spends a fair amount of time being horrified at the Lannister twincest. Hard not to believe that, if he'd had sex with his sister, he wouldn't have thought, "Well, there was that one time" at least ONCE. Furthermore, there is no indication in Martin's description of Ned's reunion with his sister at the ToJ that they had seen each other since she supposedly disappeared from the North. I don't think it likely that Ned found Lyanna after the war started, had sex with her, and then left her where he found her. Doesn't really sound Neddish. When he obsesses about Lyanna, he thinks of the promise she made him make to her but I don't recall his ever feeling responsible for her death, which would surely be the case if he found her during the war and left her where he found her.

Piper is right in saying, "Lyanna was taken before the war started. Ned finds her after he lifts the seige of Storm's end. I think that's over a year between when they would have seen each other. There also aren't any clues suggesting they had that sort o relationship. This dog won't hunt."

Knightsking, what kind of information about Harrenhal would help you here? The Jon Snow who was born after the Sack of Kings Landing can't have been conceived at Harrenhal, which was (according to Martin) a year or two before the war started. What do you think might have happened at Harrenhal that would affect the war that started a year or two later? It has often been suggested that Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree and that Rhaegar realized it and was attracted to her strength, bravery, and sense of justice. We also hear that she cried when he sang at Harrenhal, which could mean that she was attracted to him or that he sucked at singing.

As far as milkbrothers go, Edric Dayne and Jon are milkbrothers, but all that means is that they were nursed by the same woman. Edric, however, is several years younger than Jon (so they weren't nursed at the same time) and we have no reason to think that they've ever met. Jon was at Winterfell after the war ended before Catelyn and Robb got there from Riverrun and pretty much stayed there until he went to the Wall. We have no reason to think that Edric has ever been that far north. Since Edric is the Lord of Starfall, his ancestry and date of birth are well known.

Someone said: "So betraying his best friend, the king, lying to his wife and children for 14 years about Jon, lying to Jon and not telling him he might be the rightful king of Westeros, allowing Jon to go take vows that would strip him of his rightful inheritance, etc. etc. make him into a saint?" I'm not aware that anyone has nominated Ned for sainthood . . . but turning a baby over to someone who will surely kill him out of hatred for the baby's father isn't exactly taking the high moral road either. It's possible that, had things turned out differently, Ned might have told Jon about his parents some day. Unfortunately, if he planned to do that he clearly left it too late.

[SFDanny]

oops! first, I [url="http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?s=&showtopic=30232&view=findpost&p=1632379"]posted[/url] that Maester Aemon first raised the question of Jon going to the wall, but of course it was Maester Luwin, not Aemon. Just posting too fast and not checking enough before I hit "add reply."

[quote name='Shewoman' post='1632591' date='Dec 28 2008, 23.16']Someone said: "So betraying his best friend, the king, lying to his wife and children for 14 years about Jon, lying to Jon and not telling him he might be the rightful king of Westeros, allowing Jon to go take vows that would strip him of his rightful inheritance, etc. etc. make him into a saint?" I'm not aware that anyone has nominated Ned for sainthood . . . but turning a baby over to someone who will surely kill him out of hatred for the baby's father isn't exactly taking the high moral road either. It's possible that, had things turned out differently, Ned might have told Jon about his parents some day. Unfortunately, if he planned to do that he clearly left it too late.[/quote]

lol, "someone," Shewoman? That would be me. Hope this doesn't mean you're pissed at me for something! Too many posts between the two of us for that to happen.

My point was to show that Ned[i] is [/i]a "grey" character. He has his demons. He has had to make his choices that have had negative consequences on his family. Ned is like us all, but he tries harder than most to make "moral" choices, honorable choices, and he pays for them over and over again. While Ned maybe at the opposite end of the human moral continuum than Ramsey Bolton, Lord Walder Frey, or Tywin Lannister, he is part of the same spectrum that spans humanity. Not a saint, just a man doing his best.

btw, I agree with you that Ned planned to tell Jon about his mother, but time ran out. If we are correct that he is the trueborn son and rightful heir of Rhaegar and Lyanna, then Ned knowingly let Jon give away that inheritance when Jon takes his vows as a brother of the Night's Watch. Not that that meant much at the time, but it is an example of a choice Ned makes that harm others as he struggles to make the best decision possible and still keep his promises.

[Shewoman]

Of course I'm not pissed at you, SF Danny! I saw that quote in a box that didn't ID the original poster and was just too lazy to go back to look for it.

Ned is greyer than a lot of people give him credit (or blame) for. I think he tries to do what seems right to him, but he doesn't always have good alternatives among which to choose. He may well have thought that Jon would be more obscure (and therefore safer) at the Wall than at KL and been willing to trade off Jon's potential Targ future to save his life, and I think the fact that Jon had said he'd like to go to the Wall may have made Ned think he didn't need to ask Jon himself. But he still should've.

[Lady Blackfish]

[quote name='BericD' post='1632450' date='Dec 28 2008, 17.39']Like I said in my earlier post, it doesn't rule out any other theory. It just doesn't make any sense. Ned could have cleared up any misconception with her easily enough. It makes more sense that Ned didn't talk about Jon's mother because he was ashamed of his actions.[/quote]

I think it's possible that because Ned takes his honor [i]so[/i] seriously, that he'll keep his promises as much as he can, and if he believed that Catelyn might perceive housing Jon Targaryen as a threat to her own kids, he would keep it from her in order to safeguard Jon (as per his promise to Lyanna in the standard R+L=J theory). Personally I think Ned misjudged here, not because Catelyn isn't very protective of her children but because Jon's looks are easily ascribable to Ned and not Lyanna and really I can't imagine anybody in King's Landing hearing about how Catelyn's treatment of Jon might change if she found out he was Ned's nephew instead ... but I can believe that Ned would make that (mis)judgment, I find it in character for someone who has no patience for intrigue and yet is forced into one because of his values (honor, love, family, etc).

[Ser Bruce the Hound KG]

Also with regards to Ned honour when ask by Cat about N+A=J he stats
" never ask me about Jon he is my [b]Blood[/b] and that all you need to know". We know Ned would only lie as far as need be by not calling Jon his here may incate some thing

[automne]

[quote name='Shewoman' post='1629751' date='Dec 24 2008, 19.04']I'm not sure if it was in the Daynes' interest to have the cover story. It seems to me it was in [b]Ned's[/b] interest to have a woman who would agree to say publicly that she was Jon's mother.
[...]
If something happened involving the Daynes and Lyanna, could it have been something involving Arthur Dayne, who was apparently at the ToJ when Lyanna was there? Is there a more ominous reason than childbirth for the fact that her room smelled like blood when Ned found her?[/quote]

IMO it was in both Ned's and the Daynes' interests to have people believe that Ned and Wylla were Jon's parents.
I can't help but think that the Daynes had their [i]own reasons [/i]for providing a back up to Ned's cover story. -- apart from their loyalty to the Targs.
I find it odd that they would call their heir Ned and that the young boy would admire Ned Stark -- [i]the-man-who-killed-his-uncle-and-broke-his-aunt's-heart.[/i]
I wonder what made the Daynes forgive Ned.

There are so many unanswered questions that the only two facts I am reasonably convinced of are :
1. Lyanna did have a baby and made Ned promise to raise the child as his own. (I see no other promise which would literally torture him so many years later.)
2. Jon is [i]Ned's blood[/i], in other words [i]his nephew[/i].

Then, I have my favourite crackpot theory as a way to explain the Daynes attitude towards Ned.

[Shewoman]

And your favorite crackpot theory would be . . .?

Ser Bruce, I think Ned tells Catelyn that Jon "is my blood" because that is the truth if Jon has a Stark parent. He is clearly trying to shut down her line of speculation and he certainly succeeds; she never asks him about it again. She seems to take this as confirmation that Ned is Jon's father, although he doesn't actually say that.

[SFDanny]

[quote name='Shewoman' post='1632708' date='Dec 29 2008, 01.19']Of course I'm not pissed at you, SF Danny! I saw that quote in a box that didn't ID the original poster and was just too lazy to go back to look for it.

Ned is greyer than a lot of people give him credit (or blame) for. I think he tries to do what seems right to him, but he doesn't always have good alternatives among which to choose. He may well have thought that Jon would be more obscure (and therefore safer) at the Wall than at KL and been willing to trade off Jon's potential Targ future to save his life, and I think the fact that Jon had said he'd like to go to the Wall may have made Ned think he didn't need to ask Jon himself. But he still should've.[/quote]

lol, I was hoping that was the case!

We agree on Ned. He is a much more complicated character than most people give him credit for being. And while I agree with you Ned should have asked Jon, and sat down with him to tell him something about his mother, before leaving for King's Landing, I'm really glad he didn't. It would have destroyed the mystery, and it shows how difficult it is for Ned to keep his promises to the dead [i]and[/i] his commitments to the living.

[Shewoman]

I realize the Daynes were pro-Targ, but why would they need to back up Ned's story? Edric Dayne's Aunt Allyria, who told him that Ashara suicided over Ned, was very young at the time the suicide took place if it did. Ned seems to have planned to take the baby home with him since he realized there was a baby, so it's not like the Daynes would have to explain an extra child about the place.

[Shewoman]

Beric D., I think that if Ned had told Catelyn that they were raising a son of Rhaegar's, she would have been extremely upset, and with reason. If Robert had ever realized that a son of Rhaegar's--a secret Targaryen who would be considered by some in Westeros as the true king--was being raised at Winterfell, I don't think he would have hesitated to kill Jon and Ned and perhaps others. He would certainly see it as an utter betrayal by Ned.

[Ser Bruce the Hound KG]

Robert was more then a little insane when in came to the Tragaryen and had he found out he would have sent the warden of the west to do what he does best. Had Cat found out she would have given Jon obver to Robert to protect her sons

[automne]

[quote name='Shewoman' post='1633546' date='Dec 30 2008, 03.32']why would they need to back up Ned's story?[/quote]

one of my favorite crackpot theories:
a) Arthur Dayne is Jon's father.
b) Everyone in Westeros believed that Lyanna was abducted and raped (or seduced) by Rhaegar.
c) Had Robert heard about Lyanna's baby he would have assumed it was Rhaegar's and would have killed it. The chances to convince him that the baby's father was Arthur Dayne were simply nil. Robert would never have let the baby live no matter what.
d) Ned claimed the baby as his because it was the only way to protect it.

[Shewoman]

Thanks for explaining, Automne.
It does seem that most people believed Rhaegar was involved in Lyanna's disappearance--because of Harrenhal and the Crown Rhaegar gave her, I suppose--and I agree that Robert would have assumed Rhaegar fathered any child Lyanna had during that time and would have killed it.

Ned claiming the baby did save it . . . but I also think Lyanna asked him to. He thinks about his promise to her an awful lot. Recentloy we've had a thread on this board about what Christmas present we'd give our favorite characters. I'd give Ned a therapist.

[Rinso]

One thing here got me thinking... Just how [i]DUMB[/i] are Robert and those around him if R+L=J?! So, let me get this straight... Ned arrives in King's Landing shortly after Tywin. Jaime kills Aerys and Gregor murders Elia and her kids. Later, Ned and Robert have a terrible fight because of that. Ned leaves King's Landing, lifts the seige at Storm's End and presumably heads to Dorne where he finds Lyanna and the three KG knights at the Tower of Joy. She leaves him Jon and dies. Then Ned goes to Starfall to return Dawn to the Daynes. After that he returns with a baby and [i]nobody suspects anything[/i]?! I mean, Robert was all mad how Rhaegar raped Lyanna thousands of times and never got suspicious about the fact that his friend goes, finds Lyanna, she dies and he returns with a baby? I mean, come on, even Hodor would see that there is something fishy.

[SFDanny]

[quote name='Rinso' post='1634217' date='Dec 30 2008, 15.10']One thing here got me thinking... Just how [i]DUMB[/i] are Robert and those around him if R+L=J?! So, let me get this straight... Ned arrives in King's Landing shortly after Tywin. Jaime kills Aerys and Gregor murders Elia and her kids. Later, Ned and Robert have a terrible fight because of that. Ned leaves King's Landing, lifts the seige at Storm's End and presumably heads to Dorne where he finds Lyanna and the three KG knights at the Tower of Joy. She leaves him Jon and dies. Then Ned goes to Starfall to return Dawn to the Daynes. After that he returns with a baby and [i]nobody suspects anything[/i]?! I mean, Robert was all mad how Rhaegar raped Lyanna thousands of times and never got suspicious about the fact that his friend goes, finds Lyanna, she dies and he returns with a baby? I mean, come on, even Hodor would see that there is something fishy.[/quote]

I think there maybe one at least - Varys - who suspects, but Ned's multiple cover stories, backed by Ashara's death and Wylla's claiming of Jon, combined with Ned's legendary honor are more than enough to persuade most that Jon is his. In fact, the way Ned handles this reinforces to everyone that he is Jon's father. Why else would he shame his wife by bringing Jon home if it is not because of the stubborn honor that Ned has shown throughout his life? If he had sent Jon to be raised by one of his bannermen I think more questions would be raised. Also, Robert believes the Wylla story because it fits so nicely with his own weaknesses and it relieves him of the need to question more closely his friend about Lyanna's death. The rest of Westeros loves the story that Jon is Ned and Ashara's love child that he stole from the grieving mother causing her to commit suicide. Who, other than Varys, would look into this in any greater depth? I think Ned knows all of this, even to the point that he may have taken his trip to Starfall [i]when he did[/i] in order to engender the rumors about Ashara, and feels incredibly guilty for causing the shame he must know he has for his wife and for a woman he may have once loved. I think these are the lies Ned talks about in [i]AGoT[/i] and it is part of the very interesting layered character of Ned Stark.