Valonqar; A double bluff?

[Gareth Stackspear]

She thinks it means Tyrion. A lot of people think it really means Jaime. I personally think that it reffers to Dany. Why? Well, according to Aemon on the ship the prophecy about the return of the dragons reffered to a valanqor and he said that he and Raegher mistook this to mean little brother, however he was now convinced that it was dany, and said that valanqor didn't specify sex, it just meant younger sibling. Since she is the valanqor of prophecy, I think the Magei might have been reffering to Dany as well. Just my two cents.

Excellent point, but if it can refer to any younger sibling, that would also include Arya Stark.

[Josephus]

I always read the prophecies as not being true, in of themselves, but Greek prophecies - that is, the character is told them, attempts to avoid them, and instead brings them about

with no prophecy, Cersi doesn't target Tyrion, she doesn't get so protective of the children, and she doesn't go psycho all the time.with it, she forces tyrion to oppose her, places the children in actual dangerous situations (that guard, the best all around, just isn't safe enough, but mommy is), and is absolutely batshit insane attempting to avoid it

Cersi, the younger queen, brings about the older queens downfall

[Inquisitor Glokta]

I always read the prophecies as not being true, in of themselves, but Greek prophecies - that is, the character is told them, attempts to avoid them, and instead brings them about

with no prophecy, Cersi doesn't target Tyrion, she doesn't get so protective of the children, and she doesn't go psycho all the time.with it, she forces tyrion to oppose her, places the children in actual dangerous situations (that guard, the best all around, just isn't safe enough, but mommy is), and is absolutely batshit insane attempting to avoid it

Cersi, the younger queen, brings about the older queens downfall

How could the part about Roberts 16 children and Cersei's 3, be brought about through Cersei knowing it? Oo

[BericDondarrion]

Jaime wasn't born clinging to Cersei AFTER she was born for nothing. Tyrion is the red herring, Jaime is her little brother who will do the deed.

[Josephus]

How could the part about Roberts 16 children and Cersei's 3, be brought about through Cersei knowing it? Oo

easily, she screws him and refuses to have the multiple abortions she mentions - the prophecy doesn't happen

instead, she is a cold wife who screws around and aborts everything possibly his

[Josephus]

Jaime wasn't born clinging to Cersei AFTER she was born for nothing. Tyrion is the red herring, Jaime is her little brother who will do the deed.

does anybody say that elide Cersei?

I always thought it was a story she told herself to feel more connected

[Woofless]

If we are talking other younger brothers, I like the Hound.

[Not a kneeler]

Strangling is very personal and very immediate. I don't see it as a premeditated act that involves something that is weeks in the planning. Also, it is not the sort of thing most women are capable of, with the exception of Brienne who would be physically strong enough to do it. I don't see any other female able to do it unless they use a device. As much as I like the idea of Arya, I dismiss it for these reasons.

Tyrion is obvious and Cersei thinks it will be him. When has Cersei ever been right about anything?

Jaime is possible and he certainly has motive if she causes the death of Tommen and Myrcella. With him, though, it would have to be instant rage. I don't think he would do it if he had time to think about it. I could be wrong about this.

Stannis has cause if he finds out she orchestrated the death of Robert, but he's way up north and such a cold fish. He doesn't like to touch women so he would just run her through, not strangle her.

Loras is possible if Cersei manages to kill Margaery.

The Hound is possible if Cersei kills Arya or Sansa. Since I don't think either one of these character will die, the Hound is left without a strong enough motive.

Osfryd and Osney Kettleblack are possibilities, but not strong ones. They are spearcarriers not movers and shakers, and wouldn't it be bittersweet if Cersei was offed by a second-rate character. Still it would be very much George's style to do the unexpected here.

I think almost all of us will be surprised.

[Lord of Dragonstone07]

I have the feeling it is Kevan.

If the prophecy meant Cersei's little brother, it should have been "your valonquar". "The valonquar" sounds to me like it is meant to be a person who is defined by being the little brother - which neither of Cersei's brothers is. Jaime is the Kingslayer - his defining characteristic is that he is the Kingsguard who killed his king. Tyrion is the Imp, he is defined by his physical deformities. Kevan, on the ohter hand, is defined by being the younger brother, and second of Tywin Lannister. This is remarked upon by Tyrion, and later by Genna - Kevan was always content to play the second fiddle to Tywin, to be his right hand man, his helper.

And he has a pretty good reason to want Cersei gone...

If you have read Dance of Dragons, you will know Kevan will never try to harm, forget kill Cersei

[Lord of Dragonstone07]

Jaime wasn't born clinging to Cersei AFTER she was born for nothing. Tyrion is the red herring, Jaime is her little brother who will do the deed.

Its been noted many times that Jaime cam holding Cersei with his right hand, i.e; the hand that was cut of. So now, his connection has started to weaken, both actually and metaphorically. I bet it is Jaime

[jerzy59]

In Tyrion's first chapter in ADWD we have this : “He had learned to read High Valyrian at his maester’s knee, though what they spoke in the Nine Free Cities … well, it was not so much a dialect as nine dialects on the way to becoming separate tongues.”

So by valonqar (especially used with "the"), Maggy doesn't necessarily mean "little brother". I wonder if she used "valonqar" meaning "heir apparent". Making Stannis the valonqar.

[Epyon]

If it's

-HER little brother: Jaime or Tyrion are the only two possibilities... Either is frankly possible, especially if Dany invades/sacks KL with Aegon, as Tyrion will be there trying to kill her, and Jaime might be forced into a situation where it happens, because Cersei has a complete mental breakdown during the sack ala the Mad King (like if say, Jaime goes back and tries to rescue Tommen, and Cersei thinks that he's kidnapping him). I gotta say, I struggle with a dwarf being big/strong enough to strangle a fully grown person, but I also struggle seeing how Jaime would choke her with a prosthetic hand. If it's Jaime, I'd check the sequences when he first gets his hand/ Cersei's comments on it for any forshadowing.

-ANY little brother: You open up tons of other possibilities....The Hound, Jon Snow, Victarion, Euron, Stannis, Loras (unlikely since show Loras is the eldest), etc.

-Valonquar is indeed gender ambiguous. Lacking any sisters, it would also open up ANY little sister: Sansa, Arya, Margery, and/or Dany being the most likely. I don't really see any of them being strong/tough enough to throttle asphyxiate someone with their bare hands, however.

[starkbucks]

With magic users ability to glamor and faceless men ability to change faces, anyone can be Cersei killer as long as Cersei "thinks" the person killing her is the valonqar of somebody.

[Lord of Dragonstone07]

This is a great theory and makes perfect sense to me. I can't believe I forgot about Edmure being a little brother. With the Tully's proven predilection towards revenge I can completely see him sneaking in to strangle her in her own bed. Also maybe getting close to her won't be too difficult since she may decide to make Edmure her next conquest after returning to Casterly Rock.

Haha, I feel that way most of the time on this forum. Every time I think I've come up with a brilliant theory that no one but myself has seen, I see someone thought of it 6 years ago.

Edmure her next conquest? Seems very unlikely, but a great crackpot!

[Consigliere]

IF it turns out that valonqar means "little brother" or some variation of that then my money is on Jaime. The only evidence of him being the younger twin comes from AGoT and is something that can be easily overlooked.

Another possibility exists that valonqar means something totally different to what Cersei has been told. We know that Tyrion learned to speak High Valyrian from his maester but in ADwD he notes that "what they spoke in the Nine Free Cities … well, it was not so much a dialect as nine dialects on the way to becoming separate tongues.”

If there is to be a twist with this prophecy then I think that it could turn out being that valonqar means something totally different to what we have been told. IF that turns out to be the case then my money is on Lady Stoneheart. ACoK, Catelyn V: “I have no skill with swords, but that does not mean that I do not dream of riding to King’s Landing and wrapping my hands around Cersei Lannister’s white throat and squeezing until her face turns black.”

[Lady Blizzardborn]

How about the little brother who is Hand of the King using the chain of golden hands? We don't currently have a little brother who is Hand, but we could get one.

The strangler bead is unlikely, but possible.

The most likely options are Jamie, Stannis, and Tyrion. So I'm thinking it's not any of them.

Second tier includes Sandor, Loras or Garlan (both younger than Willas, and Loras may be younger than Margaery), Euron or Victarion, Jon or Aegon, Bran or Rickon.

Then there are the wild card picks: Arya, Dany, Lady Stoneheart, Theon. Of those four LS is my pick. Dany doesn't strangle people, she doesn't even kill them herself for the most part. She would totally staff that out. Arya is probably not physically strong enough. Theon has less motive than the others do and probably lacks the strength. The only reason I included him is because he could use a redemptive act and a lot of people would thank him for killing Cersei.

And here's my dark-horse candidate: Varys. No one knows for sure about his background and he could easily have an older sibling or two. It's been suggested that Illyrio's wife Serra was his sister so that's one possible sibling right there.

[Aedan Stormrage]

Well, according to the present encarnation of the High Valyrian language by David Peterson, "valonqar" is only "younger male sibling". So there's that. As to whether GRRM will abide by this... that's anyone's guess.

[Oberoth]

Aegon was a little brother and has already begun taking westeros. He might be the one to kill cersei.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Well, according to the present encarnation of the High Valyrian language by David Peterson, "valonqar" is only "younger male sibling". So there's that. As to whether GRRM will abide by this... that's anyone's guess.

After all the other parts of the prophecy coming true it would be kind of a let down if somebody who is not a little brother kills Cersei, or she drowns in the bathtub after too much wine.

I wonder if Darkstar has/had any older siblings... I could see him maybe strangling someone.

[maurernr]

Sadly, if the prohpecy is true, Tommen will die before he gets the chance. :cry:

I like the idea of Bran, though.

However, I'm still convinced it will be Jaime.

Agreed all around. It would still be cool if it were Jaime though