Valonqar; A double bluff?

[littlespider]

Sansa. With the Strangler.

[7V3N]

I am now convinced that is is Sandor Clegane. I have come to the realization that in a work of this magnitude, GRRM does not waste words. He has set up Sandor's return not only though the gravedigger, but by having Jaime think to himself of how this or that person would stand no change against the Hound if it truly was Sandor.

The Sandor v. Gregor plot is too strong in flavor and scope to have been wasted on the "leave him be" incident in GOT. GRRM, like the writers of Seinfeld, likes to tie things together.

Sandor is the younger brother who will slay

Ser Robert Strong

, and those, with his iron hands, choke the life from Cersei.

WOAH! I never thought of that. He would fight for the Faith and be able to live at peace again, knowing (Un)Gregor is dead, and by doing so he would be the one to "kill" Cersei.

[a free shadow]

I am now convinced that is is Sandor Clegane. I have come to the realization that in a work of this magnitude, GRRM does not waste words. He has set up Sandor's return not only though the gravedigger, but by having Jaime think to himself of how this or that person would stand no change against the Hound if it truly was Sandor.

The Sandor v. Gregor plot is too strong in flavor and scope to have been wasted on the "leave him be" incident in GOT. GRRM, like the writers of Seinfeld, likes to tie things together.

Sandor is the younger brother who will slay

Ser Robert Strong

, and those, with his iron hands, choke the life from Cersei.

That is one of the best theories I've read. Of all the theories on all the things. :cheers:

[lorastyrell-]

She thinks it means Tyrion. A lot of people think it really means Jaime. I personally think that it reffers to Dany. Why? Well, according to Aemon on the ship the prophecy about the return of the dragons reffered to a valanqor and he said that he and Raegher mistook this to mean little brother, however he was now convinced that it was dany, and said that valanqor didn't specify sex, it just meant younger sibling. Since she is the valanqor of prophecy, I think the Magei might have been reffering to Dany as well. Just my two cents.

I never thought of it like that! I like that theory. for the longest time I thought it would be Jaime, but he only has one hand, unless he can use his golden hand to strangle her too? Anyway I re-read that part in AFFC today and I was thinking; what if it's Stannis? Stannis is Robert's younger brother... so that's what I'm thinking. Either Stannis or Jaime... I can't see it being Tyrion; he's far from Westeros and I don't think he'll be going back any time soon.

[Mladen]

Obvious choice is Tyrion. However, I think it`s Jaime...

[lorastyrell-]

my take: Stannis is "the little brother." Him being Robert's younger brother is an enormous part of his character. And I wouldn't doubt for a second that he'd hesitate to kill Cersei, for whatever reason. As for the younger queen, it's gotta be Daenerys, taking what Cersei holds dear: the throne! and possibly Jaime?

[SimonSez]

What about Littlefinger or Aegon?

After reading a few theories of Varys and (Cat's "Little brother") Littlefinger's ultimate plans intertwining, what if to please the new king (Aegon), Littlefinger presents the dead Lannister children and the strangled Cercei at the new king's feet?

Or, to avenge his killed kin, Aegon kllls her for Tywin's crimes against the Targeryns.

[Wankerfell]

I don't think it's a death she's talking about. Choking the life from someone can also mean stealing their will or breaking their spirit, or even defeating them in some way. It certainly was not intended to be taken literally, as Jaime is missing a hand, and I'm not entirely sure it's possible for Tyrion to wrap his hands around anyone's throat. Remember, the last time he strangled someone, he used a chain. So we're not talking about literal strangulation here, and probably not even literal death--at least not at someone else's hands. I foresee an Ashara Dayne-esque ending for our Cersei.

Those dismissing the "the" before "valonqar" really need to reconsider. The translation of "valonqar" is "little brother," not "your little brother" or "my little brother." It's just "little brother." If you're referring to someone else's brother in, say, Spanish, do you say "How is the hermano?" or do you say "How is YOUR hermano?" Obviously the latter. The phrasing "the valonqar" is deliberate, and meant to convey the idea that it's not literally Cersei's brother, but someone who is a little brother. Whether that's Stannis, or someone else, I couldn't say. It may not even mean "brother" in the familial sense. In any case, it's not meant to be Tyrion or Jaime.

The bit about golden crowns doesn't refer to them becoming kings or queens. It just refers to them being Jaime's kids, that they'll be pure Lannisters. "Golden shrouds" conveys the idea that they will die in her lifetime.

But what stands out to me most of all is the revelation that Robert has 16 bastards! That was a busy guy!

[ThePaleMare]

I don't take the prophecy literally. I don't think her brothers will strangle her, however I think a younger brother will "choke" off her kingdom or army or just indirectly cause her death. I think Stannis, Sandor, or Lance l are good candidates.

[ThePaleMare]

Or a younger Kettleblack.

[Castellan]

Rambling thoughts:

Well, like a classic paranoid narcissist, Cersei has made Tyrion her bete noir and is doing everything possible to make him want to strangle her, and also everything possible to get rid of any support from anyone else. I have also been thinking Maggy obviously assessed Cersei as a nasty little girl and seems quite capable of mixing true prophecy with touches designed to make Cersei go absolutely nuts.

And may as well air my crackpot thought - when i went back and re-read the prophecy the 'drowning in your own tears' bit nagged at me until I thought perhaps it could refer to the tears of Lys which she might use as her last resort. Yes, I know its a metaphor for grief but I guess all this prophecy dissection has got to me.

Sandor seems a real possibility though because he is a character defined by being a little brother, he has also become a loose cannon (if he's still alive). Other little brothers are Loras and Theon. Its really hard to see how Theon could end up killing Cersei though, and why he'd bother.

[rmholt]

Well, I've just been reading the wiki article for Cersei, and at one point it talks about hew she has been haunted by threats of a valonqar who will strangle her.

Now most of us, take this to mean Jaime and events seem to be heading that way. However, I got to wondering if valonqar could have a duel meaning and there it was in the article;

What if in this phrase Valonqar means literally 'Little Brother' as in 'Small Brother'? This would certainly point to Tyrion being the Volonqar after all.

Any ideas, or do you guys think this is just another cracked pot?

Taemlyn, Cersei is looking for "her" valonqar's head, so the dwarf saying that isn't all that odd. But, to the best of my knowledge, we've not seen the word used in connection with Dany. Am I right on that?

Does Benjen have more reason to kill her than anyone else because of Ned's execution? That, actually, is one thing of which Cersei isn't guilty (although she is largely responsible for the horror that was Joffrey).

When I gave up on this: When Tyrion joined the Second Sons and said he was born to it, being a second son himself. So now we have infinity second sons. I just know it cant be Jaime.

[rmholt]

Everyone is over thinking it. can you really picture Stannis or Sandor or Edmure stabbing cercei, like, haha, you never guessed the little brother was me all along!!

Nah. It's got to be Jaime. However predictable, Jaime has the best potential for dramatic resonance.

Prophecy mentions two hands. Much as we think Jaime would be poetic and obvious, it is just as obviously not him.

[TheButcherCrow]

With regard to the meaning of Valonqar, what we know for certain is that Cersei believe's the meaning of the word to be "little brother". We have no double-confirmation(?) of that definition. We can assume that Cersei asked the Maester at The Rock what Valonqar meant & that he replied with "little brother". I have nothing more constructive to add really :)

NB

Crackpot Theory

Aegon is Rhaenys' "little brother".

[Joaqim]

If I weren't allowed to pick Tyrion or Jaime and I had to pick the "little brother" of this story I would say it was Stannis. There have been several mentions of how he always lived in Robert's shadow and how that drove him to be the person he became. He also is linked by marriage to Cersei. Robert's little brother - I can't think of anyone who makes more sense as the Valonquar. Of course his fear of women and sense of justice would probably prevent him from strangling her. Burning her alive as a sacrifice to R'hllor, now that would be perfectly fine.

I know it's from the show but it looks like he's training already

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayO2_kDA40c :wacko:

[adjppm1227]

That would work. But Martin doesn't play the obvious card so easily. Valonqar means "little brother," and Martin gives us quite a few main characters who are little brothers. Maggy the Frog doesn't say, "your valonqar" she says, "the valonqar." So, the little brother. Euron, Aegon, Loras, Garlan, Edmure, all of these characters are a "little brother."

[Hurm]

Lampmonster nailed it.

[GreenHand]

Mayne it means a "little BROTHER" of the Faith. That is to say, the high sparrow kills her. Or perhaps she is acquitted at her trial but some of the sparrows or poor fellows still in King's Landing are outraged and take matters into their own hands, pull her off the dias along the lines of the King's Landing Riot.

Juat a thought. An alternative. There are many orders filled with "Brothers" in Westeros.

[winteriscome]

I am now convinced that is is Sandor Clegane. I have come to the realization that in a work of this magnitude, GRRM does not waste words. He has set up Sandor's return not only though the gravedigger, but by having Jaime think to himself of how this or that person would stand no change against the Hound if it truly was Sandor.

The Sandor v. Gregor plot is too strong in flavor and scope to have been wasted on the "leave him be" incident in GOT. GRRM, like the writers of Seinfeld, likes to tie things together.

Sandor is the younger brother who will slay

Ser Robert Strong

, and those, with his iron hands, choke the life from Cersei.

nice angle but i dont think thats how it will pan out Sandor has his own story arc; he has to kill Gregor i dont think Cersei will be involved there are alot of other people who want to strangle her

[Inquisitor Glokta]

opening a crackpot right now:

We have learned from Aemon that genders in old Valyrian seem to be not that specific

Could Valonqar just mean 'a younger sibling' pretty much like with TPTWP and no one looking for a princess?

Only problem is, that this would double the amount of suspects for Cersei's upcoming death ;)