Aludra Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 This is too much of a stretch. It's possible Wylla was a midwife at the Tower of Joy, but then it begs the question, why would Rhaegar and Lyanna trust her? And here's evidence against this. Wylla is a wet nurse of Edric Dayne, which implies she is a servant of the Dayne household. Wouldn't it be unusual for one of their peasant folk to be as far away as the Tower of Joy? And Wylla is a Dornish woman. By "kidnapping" Lyanna, Rhaegar had alienated many people in Dorne. Well, they had to trust someone, didn't they? What happened to all the servants at the Tower of Joy? There must have been a Maester or midwife in attendance, too. Further, Arthur Dayne was one of Rhaegar's closest friends, which is not insignificant, I think, as a connection. Wylla is placed at Starfall a few years after Jon's birth; do we even know she was Dornish? Others knew. Others had to know. I find it more of a stretch that they trusted no one at all rather than trusting a few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artanaro Posted January 13, 2006 Author Share Posted January 13, 2006 Others knew. Others had to know. I find it more of a stretch that they trusted no one at all rather than trusting a few. But now this statement is contradicted by why Ned can't tell Catelyn. If he can trust a stranger, why can't he trust his wife of 14 years (or more). Artanaro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aludra Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 But now this statement is contradicted by why Ned can't tell Catelyn. If he can trust a stranger, why can't he trust his wife of 14 years (or more). That's my argument, that he didn't choose to trust Wylla, she had already been trusted. Like I said, there were servants and others already at the Tower of Joy. What happened to them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artanaro Posted January 13, 2006 Author Share Posted January 13, 2006 That's my argument, that he didn't choose to trust Wylla, she had already been trusted. Like I said, there were servants and others already at the Tower of Joy. What happened to them? Ned is still choosing to trust Wylla, by having her assume to be the mother of Jon, and then leaving her in Dorne. Everything just doesn't add up. Anything is possible, but everything about Wylla knowing about R+L=J seems forced. A member of the Dayne household (but not Ashara who was close to Elia's family) is at the TOJ. Ned comes upon her, and tells the stranger, "I need you to assume to be the mother of Lyanna's child." They both go back to Starfall, and then Ned leaves her with the full confidence that Wylla will never reveal on him or Jon. Nahh, this doesn't work. Conspiracies require major levels of trust. Artanaro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYC Falcon Posted January 14, 2006 Share Posted January 14, 2006 Artanaro, you've succeded in proving to the rest of us that once you have a fantasy locked into you brain you won't let it go unless you take your meds. Your lack of logic has baffled us. When will you come up with some sort of sound theory like my twin theory which is based on what Martin has written. Use Martin's timeline and physical descriptions. Everything else is just your own lack of medication. Twins I tell you twins... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nine of Spades Posted January 14, 2006 Share Posted January 14, 2006 How many kiddies. Thats a question Ive been thinking. If R+L=J is true, the most likely scenario single birth scenario is that Wylla is at the Tower of Joy with Lyanna 9 months prior to the birth of Jon. The reason being, is that Ned would need to claim that Lyanna's kid belonged to somebody other than his true mother, and for that to be possible Wylla has to be someplace people cant see her decidedly not pregnant. R+L=J runs into problems under the 2 birth scenario though, if their is a second kid, what the heck happens to it? In this scenario Wylla or Ashara is pregnant, or they are offscreen in the south or elsewhere and show up with a young babe. In the known pregnant case I dont see how their would be any doubt about Jon's mother "actual" mother. People would notice one or the other would be very pregnant, which would be most likely Wylla. For it to be Ashara, the showing up with a babe theory would have to be the most likely. Ashara could certainly claim it was Wylla's, because the child would be a bastard that would seriously damage her ability to be a marraigeable lady. Or the family could claim that posthumously, because they dont want Ashara's honor impugned. Ok, anyways, so having 2 babes to deal with, Ned can claim that Lynna's is really his... but what in hecks name do you do with the one thats actually his? I mean, babes just dont dissapear when convenient. As complicated as Artanaro's theories may seem to some, its actually the most logical explanation of a 2 child scenario. Because one of those children has to dissappear. And if one of those children is to dissappear, it is most likely Lyanna's since "dissapearing effectively removes the child from Robert's radar. Ashara would be a logical candidate if she is loyal to Ned and the House Targaryen, and because if the kid has violet eyes, it is easy to claim that it is in fact her child. Wylla as a parent is the hardest to accept, because she would be giving up her child in Winterfell when she left to go south again. I cant see that happening without having a messy scene. I cant see Ned not telling Cat. So Ashara starts becoming a really attactive choice again. And the recent parrallel is Gilly's sacrifice, so we know that Martin, who likes to work in parrallel's, is not about this sort of manuever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandsnake Posted January 14, 2006 Share Posted January 14, 2006 Maybe Wylla was mute........... Why does Wylla have to know that the baby is Lyanna's anyway? She might not have been in the TOJ, and was told that it was Ned's son, and she is supposed to pretend that he is her son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYC Falcon Posted January 14, 2006 Share Posted January 14, 2006 As complicated as Artanaro's theories may seem to some, its actually the most logical explanation of a 2 child scenario. Because one of those children has to dissappear. And if one of those children is to dissappear, it is most likely Lyanna's since "dissapearing effectively removes the child from Robert's radar. Ashara would be a logical candidate if she is loyal to Ned and the House Targaryen, and because if the kid has violet eyes, it is easy to claim that it is in fact her child. Oh, I get it. Ashara isn't really dead. While everyone who knew of her acknowledges that she jumped into the sea from the top of a tower, it was a very short tower and indeed she swam away with the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar. So that's who Patchface is. He washes up on shore. Makes sense to me. Why do you people persist on making claims that has nothing to do with what Martin wrote? It's twins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moss Posted January 14, 2006 Share Posted January 14, 2006 Ned is still choosing to trust Wylla, by having her assume to be the mother of Jon, and then leaving her in Dorne. Everything just doesn't add up. Anything is possible, but everything about Wylla knowing about R+L=J seems forced. A member of the Dayne household (but not Ashara who was close to Elia's family) is at the TOJ. Ned comes upon her, and tells the stranger, "I need you to assume to be the mother of Lyanna's child." They both go back to Starfall, and then Ned leaves her with the full confidence that Wylla will never reveal on him or Jon. Nahh, this doesn't work. Conspiracies require major levels of trust. Artanaro Actually, the fact that Ned left Wylla in Dorne suggests that she is not Jon's mother. Nothing in Ned's character suggests that he would abandon a mother to his child, nor intentionally strip a child from its mother. If Wylla were truly Ned's wartime mistress and Jon her child, he would have taken her North (perhaps not Winterfell) and made sure she was cared for and that Jon could have some relationship with her. Ned is well aware (see his thoughts in the dark cells) that he has done Jon wrong with his secrecy. If Wylla were Jon's mother, there would have been no need for the harm. If Jons mother were Ashara Dayne, there would be no need for secrecy. All this suggests that there is some siginifcant reason for Ned keeping Jon's maternal parent purposefully unknown, even from Jon. That suggests that Jon's mother is neither Wylla nor Ashara Dayne. All of which does not contradict R+L=J. That is a secret worth keeping. Lives and kingdoms depend upon it. N+ (x)=J does not require any secrecy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shewoman Posted January 14, 2006 Share Posted January 14, 2006 Artanaro said: "Here are the lists of problems I have with R+L=J that I'm shocked people have no problem with. It just shows how subjective people's faith in Jon being Lyanna's child really is. 1.) Ned can take a stranger, Wylla, into his confidence about something as dangerous as Lyanna's son. Me: There had to be servants there, especially a wet nurse, and they would know who Rhaegar was, and that Lyanna wasn't Elia. They had to be trusted. If Wylla was already connected to the Daynes at this point, it could be that Ashara vouched for her trustworthiness and sent her to Lyanna in the ToJ. By the time Ned gets to ToJ, Wylla's already BEEN trusted by Lyanna--who asks him to promise her some things, one of which, in my opinion, was to keep Jon's lineage a secret. Therefore he can't tell Catelyn. 2.) Someone disappears at the same time Ned find Lyanna's child is nothing unusual. Me: We're told it was a suicide, not a disappearance, and under the circumstances her suicide is not unusual. 3.) Ned can't bring Catelyn into his trust, but he can bring Wylla without a problem. Me: See my response to your first point; he didn't choose to trust Wylla and his promises to Lyanna most likely kept him from telling Catelyn (GOT 115 in a Ned POV: “He had lived his lies for 14 years, yet they still haunted him at night.†4.) The probability that Lyanna's child looks totally like Ned is very unlikely. Me: I look just like my aunt, and my brother's children look just like their uncle on their mother's side. In any case, I'm not sure that Martin's genetics will stand up to scientific inquiry--so many characters greatly resemble one of their parents with no resemblance to the other. 5.) The shame Ned feels about Jon is as simplistic as "a child should know the names of his parents." Me: Oh, come on. There's a lot more to it. He thinks about Jon a lot, worries about his future, remembers those promises constantly (conveniently without itemizing them), worries about his lies. 6.) Parris even said it was "complicated" (actually, she said that R+L=J was "too basic" for Martin). Explain that one. I'm curious . Me: Red herring. YOu've mentioned earlier that people support R+L because we don't think Ned would have fathered a bastard after his marriage. I don't think he's likely to have done that, but that's not near the top of my list of reasons for R+L. It's his obsessive memories of Lyanna and the promises and the fact that he never in his thoughts thinks of Jon as his son. He told Cat "He is my blood"--a technically truthful evasion if I ever read one. About Harwin's quote concerning when Ned met Ashara: if he fathered a child on her at Harrenhal, that child would be a year or more older than Robb. But that's not Harwin's concern; he's telling Arya that if her father had an interest in another woman, it was before he met Catelyn and so doesn't threaten her image of her parents' marriage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artanaro Posted January 14, 2006 Author Share Posted January 14, 2006 Actually, the fact that Ned left Wylla in Dorne suggests that she is not Jon's mother. Read this thread again, you haven't so far. I never say Wylla is Jon's mother. Me: There had to be servants there, especially a wet nurse, and they would know who Rhaegar was, and that Lyanna wasn't Elia. They had to be trusted. If Wylla was already connected to the Daynes at this point, it could be that Ashara vouched for her trustworthiness and sent her to Lyanna in the ToJ. By the time Ned gets to ToJ, Wylla's already BEEN trusted by Lyanna--who asks him to promise her some things, one of which, in my opinion, was to keep Jon's lineage a secret. Therefore he can't tell Catelyn. Here's what people have difficulty understanding. If she's at the Tower of Joy and she is a member of the Dayne household that is already extremely farfetched. However, if she is not currently in the Dayne's employ, but Ned takes her to Starfall, tells everyone she is the mother of his child, and then drops her off there. This story is full of holes and is artificial. Ned either drops off a stranger at Starfall, or she should not have been at the Tower of Joy originally. This explanation is bad. Me: We're told it was a suicide, not a disappearance, and under the circumstances her suicide is not unusual. Nah, it is a disappearance that people label a suicide. If you want my arguements about why that's the case, look at the rest of this thread. Me: See my response to your first point; he didn't choose to trust Wylla and his promises to Lyanna most likely kept him from telling Catelyn (GOT 115 in a Ned POV: “He had lived his lies for 14 years, yet they still haunted him at night.†I don't think Lyanna's promise is "don't tell anyone about the child", it's more along the lines "keep my child safe." There is less danger in telling Catelyn, than there is in leaving a stranger with the knowledge of everything in Dorne to do whatever she wants. Perhaps Wylla comes onto destitute times, and decides she can tell about Lyanna's child to get assistance from Robert. These are major risks. People that say Ned didn't have a choice to trust Wylla are not seeing the fact, if he had to trust her out of necessity, he would have always kept her close (or had her go back with Howland Reed). You can't just leave someone with her knowledge to do as she will without being certain she won't talk. Me: I look just like my aunt, and my brother's children look just like their uncle on their mother's side. In any case, I'm not sure that Martin's genetics will stand up to scientific inquiry--so many characters greatly resemble one of their parents with no resemblance to the other. It's possible, but answer me this, if Jon looked like Rhaegar what would Ned have done? YOu've mentioned earlier that people support R+L because we don't think Ned would have fathered a bastard after his marriage. I don't think he's likely to have done that, but that's not near the top of my list of reasons for R+L. It's his obsessive memories of Lyanna and the promises and the fact that he never in his thoughts thinks of Jon as his son. He told Cat "He is my blood"--a technically truthful evasion if I ever read one. About Harwin's quote concerning when Ned met Ashara: if he fathered a child on her at Harrenhal, that child would be a year or more older than Robb. But that's not Harwin's concern; he's telling Arya that if her father had an interest in another woman, it was before he met Catelyn and so doesn't threaten her image of her parents' marriage. See, the fact remains people shouldn't use Harwin, because he has no direct knowledge of Ashara and Ned's relationship. And on your arguements, they all point to selective choosing. If you don't already have reasons for thinking R+L=J, then there are no reasons to believe them. Artanaro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nine of Spades Posted January 14, 2006 Share Posted January 14, 2006 Oh, I get it. Ashara isn't really dead. While everyone who knew of her acknowledges that she jumped into the sea from the top of a tower, it was a very short tower and indeed she swam away with the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar. So that's who Patchface is. He washes up on shore. Makes sense to me. I didnt say Ashara isnt dead, I said that she would make a logical candidate to whisk away a Targ heir. Additionally, Martin hasnt clarified the circumstances of her death. Im not a big booster of that theory, but there is a logic too it. Considering how little we actually know about what happened, Martin has a great deal of room to make up whatever he wants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moss Posted January 14, 2006 Share Posted January 14, 2006 Read this thread again, you haven't so far. I never say Wylla is Jon's mother. Thank you for opining on what I've read and not read. Your opinion is wrong. Wylla and Ashara are the two women openly rumored to be Jon' mother. I addressed both. Nah, it is a disappearance that people label a suicide. If you want my arguements about why that's the case, look at the rest of this thread. I don't think Lyanna's promise is "don't tell anyone about the child", it's more along the lines "keep my child safe." There is less danger in telling Catelyn, than there is in leaving a stranger with the knowledge of everything in Dorne to do whatever she wants. Perhaps Wylla comes onto destitute times, and decides she can tell about Lyanna's child to get assistance from Robert. These are major risks. Ned trusts people. He is honorable and assumes other would also act honorably (or at least prudently). This eventually lead to his death. If someone he trusted vouched for Wylla, Ned would trust her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aludra Posted January 14, 2006 Share Posted January 14, 2006 Here's what people have difficulty understanding. If she's at the Tower of Joy and she is a member of the Dayne household that is already extremely farfetched. Ah, interpretations of the word 'farfetched'. Okay, so by your reasoning, it's a stretch to have Ned trust one person, Wylla, but not a stretch for all of Starfall to conceal Ashara's pregnancy? Further to that, I'm not sure I understand why it's worse for Ned to tell Catelyn Ashara is Jon's mother than to tell her nothing at all. One of your main issues seems to be that Ned trusted Wylla above Catelyn; even if Jon is Ashara's son by Ned, how is the lie to Catelyn any less of a trust issue? I think I read that it's because it would hurt Catelyn to know he had an affair with a woman he loved before her, but this seems rather silly considering how the lack of knowledge gnawed away at her over the years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artanaro Posted January 15, 2006 Author Share Posted January 15, 2006 Ah, interpretations of the word 'farfetched'. Okay, so by your reasoning, it's a stretch to have Ned trust one person, Wylla, but not a stretch for all of Starfall to conceal Ashara's pregnancy? Here's the thing about having Ashara's family conceal her pregnancy. It is much more understandable (given the possible motivations and all), then for Ned to take into his trust a total stranger with R+L=J. Just looking at my theory, there is only one person necessary to know about Rhaegar's child besides Ned, that is Ashara (who we have good reason to believe Ned trusts). There is no substantial reason about why Ned should trust Wylla. Even if she was at the Tower of Joy, he should want her closer to make sure she keeps faith. Further to that, I'm not sure I understand why it's worse for Ned to tell Catelyn Ashara is Jon's mother than to tell her nothing at all. One of your main issues seems to be that Ned trusted Wylla above Catelyn; even if Jon is Ashara's son by Ned, how is the lie to Catelyn any less of a trust issue? I think I read that it's because it would hurt Catelyn to know he had an affair with a woman he loved before her, but this seems rather silly considering how the lack of knowledge gnawed away at her over the years. Let me use an example from literature. In Anne Karenina, a character, Dolly, is cheated on by her husband, Stiva. In discussing how she is hurt by him, she focuses on whether Stiva loved the girl or not. For many women, a fit of lust is much more understandable than their husband entering into an emotional relationship with another woman. If Ned tells Catelyn the details, she could very well always wonder if Ned still prefers Ashara to her. It's similiar to how, many girlfriends (and boyfriends) ask their partner about past relationships, but still get incredibly jealous and defensive about anything involving their future contact with their ex's. In reference to not coming clean on Ned's possible adultery, telling Catelyn wouldn't change anything and could make things worse even. This is a debatable point though. Anyways, I'm not saying this is the reason. I'm saying it's a possible factor. If Ned tells Catelyn about Jon's mother, he would also need to tell her about how Ashara took Lyanna's child beyond Westeros. In N+A=J, if Ned is seeking to conceal from everyone N+A=J, there is no advantage to telling his wife. Jon is still a bastard, and he still committed infidelity. If R+L=J is true, here's the thing. It makes sense to tell Catelyn if he is not Jon's father and especially since he has no problem leaving Wylla with the secret about Lyanna's child (which he shouldn't have done in any situation). My theory covers that Wylla doesn't need to know about R+L=?, so he has no reason therefore to tell Catelyn. Artanaro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grant Dempsey Posted January 15, 2006 Share Posted January 15, 2006 There is no substantial reason about why Ned should trust Wylla. Even if she was at the Tower of Joy, he should want her closer to make sure she keeps faith. And bring home not only his bastard, but the bastard's supposed mother? When even the presence of the bastard itself upset Catelyn as much as it did? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artanaro Posted January 15, 2006 Author Share Posted January 15, 2006 And bring home not only his bastard, but the bastard's supposed mother? When even the presence of the bastard itself upset Catelyn as much as it did? He could have had her go with Howland Reed. The idea is, you just can't trust a stranger with the knowledge of R+L=J. Artanaro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beppie Posted January 15, 2006 Share Posted January 15, 2006 It's interesting that no-one is arguing that Wylla could actually be the mother. Personally I think that R+L=J is most likely, but is there any evidence that actually directly contradicts N+W=J? Regarding trusting Wylla (assuming she was just a wetnurse), a lot of people seem to be assuming that she needs to know the kid's parantage in order to suckle him. Why can't she just believe that it's Ned's bastard child that she needs to pass off as her own? I fail to see why, whoever Jon's parents are, Ned would need to tell Wylla more information (or misinformation as it may be) than she strictly needs to know. Going more into the realm of speculation, it's also possible, given that she's lactating and feeding two babies not her own, that Wylla had her own infant that died (or was even taken from her so she could nurse the others-- though I don't think Ned would do this), and since she couldn't really call Edric her own, she latched onto Jon, loving him as her own child, much as Gilly eventually does with Mance's infant-- as such, she continued to think of him as her own and tell people that he was hers. As for Ned covering up about Ashara at Winterfell-- it's quite possible that the person he's trying to protect here is not Ashara, but Jon. I don't think he wants Jon hearing these stories as a small child, and then when he's older either claiming (falsely, in my belief) that Ashara is his mother, or running off to enquire more thoroughly about what happenned. As for why he doesn't trust Catelyn-- I think it's quite clear that Catelyn can't be trusted insofar as Jon is concerned. She doesn't like having Ned's bastard around, and if she found out that he wasn't actually his bastard, she might never stop pushing for it to be known. She could slip up, and it would reach Robert's ears, and Robert would demand his head, forcing Ned into rebellion, or it could cause an even greater strain in their relationship than the idea of a true bastard child. It's also possible, of course, that Catelyn would be pleased with this news, and it would help her accept Jon as a member of the family, but given her prejudice against him, I don't think that Ned would be able to risk it. And I think that Ned also appreciates that secrets only remain secrets if you don't go telling people about them. Plus, for all we know, part of Ned's promise to Lyanna could have been never to reveal Jon's parantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grant Dempsey Posted January 15, 2006 Share Posted January 15, 2006 He could have had her go with Howland Reed. What explanation would Ned have for taking a lifelong servant of Starfall to Greywater Watch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artanaro Posted January 15, 2006 Author Share Posted January 15, 2006 What explanation would Ned have for taking a lifelong servant of Starfall to Greywater Watch? What explanation is there for a lifelong servant of Starfall being suspiciously at the Tower of Joy? I don't buy her being there, so I'm at peace with my theory. Artanaro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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