Jon is the child of Eddard Stark and Ashara Dayne

[Sandsnake]

One of the things Lyanna hated about Robert was that he was not faithful (and he wsan't even married). I doubt then that she would run off with an unfaithful, married man. I believe that she was abducted and raped, as Robert and many others believed. Yes, she may be wild, but she is a highborn lady who was promised to another man who she resented because he was unfaithful.

The interesting thing about the Starks was that they either had the complete Stark look, or their mother's. Nothing in between- No brown hair and blue eyes, or red hair and brown eyes. If Jon is indeed Lyanna's son, then he may have gotten the complete look from Lyanna.

Ned wanted to protect Jon from KL because he would be shunned- he would not even be permitted to sit with his brothers and sisters at the same dinner table. He reluctantly agreed to let him serve at the NW only after Maester Luwin convinced him that he could rise high in the NW, not to mention he would have Benjen to take care of him.

Not all Starks are represented by blue roses. Lyanna was fond of them, and when Ned sometimes remembered Lyanna the blue rose petals would be mentioned. I would explain Dany's vision of a blue rose prospering on the wall as Jon (Lyanna's son) rising to LC.

As for Ashara Dayne:

I believe that Ashara is dead. Her body was never recovered, just as Lysa Arryn never was when she was pushed out of the Moon Door.

If Lyanna was Jon's mother, he would never tell Ashara even if he loved her (he wouldn't even tell Cat). There is no possible way Ned would tell Ashara that the boy was Lyanna's. Would Ashara agree to hide and raise a boy she believed was Ned's by another woman? I doubt.

If he had been Ashara's, would she hide or commit suicide? I doubt that too.

I think she commited suicide because of all the reasons that were discussed. She was in grief.

[Artanaro]

I agree NYC Falcon, so stop treating R+L=J like it's fact.

Artanaro

[Grant Dempsey]

I have a question. Maybe you already answered it in this thread and I just missed it, so forgive me if this is somewhat repetitive. You said Eddard Stark would have needed to bring Jon Snow back to Winterfell with him, because Ashara Dayne's suicide would not have explained her newborn child disappearing with her and so it needed to be established that the child still existed. So, my question is, why?

First of all, that assumes that not only was Ashara's pregnancy was well-known, even beyond merely Starfall, but -- obviously -- that she was pregnant at all, which was itself neither stated nor undeniably implied (regardless of whether or not you believe indirectly-related evidence leads to that conclusion). I bring this up as a general point, simply because it's an advantage which R+L=J still has over N+A=J. We know Rhaegar Targaryen had sex with Lyanna Stark, whether she consented or not (Robert Baratheon himself spoke of "how many times he raped her"). We know Lyanna Stark was missing throughout Robert's Rebellion, presumably kept in the Tower of Joy (and thus her pregnancy being very much a secret -- then and after -- is reasonable). We know Lyanna Stark died in a "bed of blood", which could easily be interpreted as meaning death in childbirth. Of course, there was also the enigmatic "promise" Ned made to her as she died. All of these can easily lead to and support the conclusion that Lyanna Stark was pregnant and gave birth to the child, and that her pregnancy was far from well-known. You've acknowledged and agreed with this, obviously, but my point is that it's much harder to interpret that Ashara was pregnant at all, let alone explain how her pregnancy would have been so unknown.

Anyway, secondly (and more to the point of my question), Ned had an entirely separate story for Jon's parentage (Wylla) for anyone he felt he had to tell, like Robert Baratheon, and he outright refused to tell any story at all to those he felt he didn't absolutely have to tell, like Catelyn Stark. Even in Starfall, the story was that Wylla was the mother (according to Edric Dayne). Where, in all that, was avoiding suspicion for what would otherwise be an unexplained disappearance of a baby? If the people of Starfall (the only ones -- it would seem -- who would know of the child's existence anyway) were in on the truth of Ned and Ashara, not only would it appear that they suppressed Ashara's pregnancy altogether, but also that they kept up an entirely different story as to who Jon's mother was anyway, which would leave Ned's insistence on taking Jon back with him for that sort of purpose seeming unnecessary.

Thirdly, knowing the pain it would cause for Ashara to be separated from her own baby and the pain it would cause for Catelyn Stark for Jon to be a constant presence in Winterfell, feeling shameful guilt for what it meant for both of them and for Jon himself, why couldn't Ashara's faked suicide have simply included her baby? Why couldn't the story have been that she leapt into the sea holding the baby (which I assume couldn't have been proven to have been Ned's anyway) in her arms or something? I don't feel that part of the theory quite adds up.

[mormont]

Gonna keep this brief because there are already some veeery long posts. But the fatal flaw in the N+A=J theory is surely Wylla.

Why, in any variant of N+A=J, would Ned let people think Wylla is Jon's mother? He evidently does with Robert, at least, and on more than one occasion. What is he doing that for?

To protect Ashara's good name? Well, that seems to have been a pretty futile attempt, since half of Winterfell seem to assume she was the mother anyway, and none of them seem to have heard of Wylla. If he was going to do that, he should have gone the whole hog and explicitly told everybody that Wylla was the mother, surely? At the very least he should have lied to Cat when she asked him about Ashara.

But he didn't. You can't protect Ashara's reputation by lying if you refuse to actually tell the lie! If Wylla is an attempt to cover up for Ashara, it's the most half-assed attempt conceivable.

OTOH, if Wylla is the original cover story for Lyanna, but was superceded by the more 'romantic' option of Ashara in common gossip, I can see why Ned would be happy to leave

the waters muddy and refuse to comment any further.

[Nightstar]

From what I can gather she jumped into the sea because Eddard married Cat and knocked her up then knocked up one of her serving women.

But- didn't Ned tell Robert that Wylla was a tavern wench?

I seem to remember something about that.

But if she'd always served at Starfell, that had to be wrong...what if someone had bothered to check?

(Robert would be too stupid to think of that; but Littlefinger or Varys wouldn't).

Why didn't Ned simply say Wylla was a servant?

[Grant Dempsey]

Robert only called Wylla a "common girl". I'd think that could still befit her status at Starfall. She wasn't highborn, in any case.

[Artanaro]

I have a question. Maybe you already answered it in this thread and I just missed it, so forgive me if this is somewhat repetitive. You said Eddard Stark would have needed to bring Jon Snow back to Winterfell with him, because Ashara Dayne's suicide would not have explained her newborn child disappearing with her and so it needed to be established that the child still existed. So, my question is, why?

Good question, and I've alluded to the answer at certain places, but let me give you a more concrete and complete response. At it's simplest form, my theory only requires Ashara to know about Lyanna's child. Wylla's knowledge that Ashara is the mother of Jon isn't especially important, but it does serve some things. Most people (as we've seen on this board) have no problem buying that Ashara killed herself. I find lots of fault with it, but most don't. Wylla probably didn't either. However, if the right person starts questioning Ashara's death, they could perhaps find out about L+R=?. But if Wylla, who is claiming Jon as her own, suddenly had her new child disappear, that would raise significant alarm among many people, Wylla especially. Ashara can only take her child with her, if Wylla is part of the conspiracy of R+L=?, but I don't think she is.

It's funny how people have no problem with Ned taking a stranger into his confidence, but see nothing wrong with Ned refusing to tell Catelyn. I have alot of problem with Wylla knowing about Lyanna's child.

First of all, that assumes that not only was Ashara's pregnancy was well-known, even beyond merely Starfall, but -- obviously -- that she was pregnant at all, which was itself neither stated nor undeniably implied (regardless of whether or not you believe indirectly-related evidence leads to that conclusion). I bring this up as a general point, simply because it's an advantage which R+L=J still has over N+A=J... [A]nd that her pregnancy was far from well-known. You've acknowledged and agreed with this, obviously, but my point is that it's much harder to interpret that Ashara was pregnant at all, let alone explain how her pregnancy would have been so unknown.

For the R+L=J conspiracy to work, two things are very necessary. You've discussed the first one quite well. Lyanna's child must be secret. R+L=J has the advantage over N+A=J here. Nevertheless, the second point is where R+L=J begins to fall apart. This theory assumes Ned involved in his plot a person who very well had no reason to be trusted, Wylla. She is the double-edge sword in both theories. According to R+L=J, Ned brings a child out of nowhere, takes into his confidence someone he hasn't know before or at least no special reason to trust, and then abandons her without knowing whether she's spreading stories about Lyanna's child or not. N+A=J easily explains Wylla's position in my theory.

But let me return to your main arguement about how could Ashara's pregnancy be kept hidden. The same people who would know Wylla was not the mother of Jon are the same people who would have knowledge of N+A=J (Wylla a wetnurse, any midwives who would help either have a child, the Daynes). So there is no additional risk of discovering the plot with Ashara being pregnant as there would be with Wylla lying about having Jon being her own child. Even if Wylla had been pregant, but her child died soon after birth, or she miscarried, the individuals necessary to conceal the identity of Jon's parents remains the same.

Now let me explain why Wylla is easier to understand in terms of N+A=J. There is a very real possibility Wylla was part of the conspiracy to hide Jon's mother long before Ned learned about Lyanna's child. Ashara is a member of a very important and noble house in Westeros. Ashara may have wanted to spare Ned any dishonour of having a bastard, so she planned to have Wylla assume to be the mother of Jon (but then raise the child herself). From Edric Dayne we know that Wylla had a relationship with the Daynes (being a wetnurse). It is much more understandable for the Daynes to bring Wylla into such a small conspiracy as concealing the bastard of a noblewoman, than to assume she would claim the child of a stranger(R+L=J) as her own. Wylla could understand how it might be important for Westeros to not know Ashara had a child (if Ashara ever wanted to get married again, this is important, but I doubt that was among her reasons). I can't think of any story Ned could tell Wylla, without endangering the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Anyway, secondly (and more to the point of my question), Ned had an entirely separate story for Jon's parentage (Wylla) for anyone he felt he had to tell, like Robert Baratheon, and he outright refused to tell any story at all to those he felt he didn't absolutely have to tell, like Catelyn Stark. Even in Starfall, the story was that Wylla was the mother (according to Edric Dayne). Where, in all that, was avoiding suspicion for what would otherwise be an unexplained disappearance of a baby? If the people of Starfall (the only ones -- it would seem -- who would know of the child's existence anyway) were in on the truth of Ned and Ashara, not only would it appear that they suppressed Ashara's pregnancy altogether, but also that they kept up an entirely different story as to who Jon's mother was anyway, which would leave Ned's insistence on taking Jon back with him for that sort of purpose seeming unnecessary.

I am confused what you're trying to say here, but let me do my best to respond. You're saying (at least near the end), why does Ned have to bring Jon back when he already has a supposed 'mother'? This answer goes along the same lines for both theories again. If Wylla could conceal the identity of Lyanna's child, she could have done the same for Ashara's. But, in both scenarios, she isn't the mother of either children. I'll cover the reasons why Ashara can't take her own child in the next paragraph, but it would be wrong in every case to just abandon the child to someone without blood relations. Wylla may be a very good person, but blood does go a long way. Ned is the biological father of Jon in my theory, so he has the responsibility of taking care of a child of his own. In R+L=J, he's the child's uncle so that would still be better than a stranger raising Jon.

For the first question in the paragraph, if you could repeat it, I'd be glad to answer.

Thirdly, knowing the pain it would cause for Ashara to be separated from her own baby and the pain it would cause for Catelyn Stark for Jon to be a constant presence in Winterfell, feeling shameful guilt for what it meant for both of them and for Jon himself, why couldn't Ashara's faked suicide have simply included her baby? Why couldn't the story have been that she leapt into the sea holding the baby (which I assume couldn't have been proven to have been Ned's anyway) in her arms or something? I don't feel that part of the theory quite adds up.

This answer goes along practical and emotional lines. If Ned asks Ashara to take Lyanna's child away from the power of Robert, Ashara may have chosen to require Eddard to raise Jon as his own child. This could be along sentimental reasons as well.

1.) Raising a child without the assistance of friends, financial security, or even an understanding of the culture of your new home, is an extremely difficult task. Ned is asking Ashara to abandon her life as a member of the nobility of Westeros, and become a barmaid, a fishwife, whatever job she can find in the Free Cities. Having one child may be too much of a strain on her, but caring for two babies would definitely be beyond the limit. Also, remember, Ned doesn't just want Lyanna's child to grow up safe. He wants the child to be raised in a loving family. Ashara is the one person left alive he can trust with doing that. But for financial and emotional reasons, raising two children at once isn't feasible.

2.) For sentimental purposes, there are reasons Ashara may have required Ned to raise his own child. If Ashara knew she would never see the love of her life again, she may have wanted Ned to take Jon so he would always have a part of her nearby. Also, she could have wanted her child raised as a lord's son, which would be understandable given the blood of his parents.

3.) I do not know the risks in taking young babies on voyages in Westeros. It's a necessary risk to save Lyanna's child from Robert, but Ashara could have felt no reason to risk her own child with such a voyage. This guess is just speculation though. I think my two other reasons provide satisfactory explanations for why Ned and Ashara did what they.

Artanaro

[AverageGuy]

I think that, if it's no coincidence, it would be kids of the same father because those wolves are of one litter...

OTOH, we can't be absolutely, 100% certain Ghost was from the same litter. He could have been born earlier from another direwolf mother, who abandoned him and went off with her other pups. After all, Ghost's eyes were already open.

(Not that I subscribe to this. But I don't believe the one litter is proof of one father, either.)

[Artanaro]

To protect Ashara's good name? Well, that seems to have been a pretty futile attempt, since half of Winterfell seem to assume she was the mother anyway, and none of them seem to have heard of Wylla. If he was going to do that, he should have gone the whole hog and explicitly told everybody that Wylla was the mother, surely? At the very least he should have lied to Cat when she asked him about Ashara.

Here's what many people do not understand. Wylla may have originally been used to protect Ashara's reputation, but after Lyanna had a child, she serves a much different purpose. Her part in the conspiracy allows Ashara's death to be accepted by everyone. Wylla, if she was a different person, might suspect that Ashara's death was faked. Most people won't catch onto that, but it just matters that the wrong people don't suspect anything (Robert Baratheon being one of them). It's why he needs Wylla as the cover story to Robert, but he has no reason to lie to Catelyn about Wylla.

Catelyn is a very smart person. If Eddard tells her that about Wylla, she would put two and two together that timelines don't add up. How does Ned father a bastard on a Dornishwoman when Robb isn't much older than Jon. So why tell a lie, Catelyn may very well not believe. In the next case, why doesn't Eddard tell Catalyn about Ashara? First, there's no reason to do so. People always want to believe they would rather know the truth, but do you think it would make Catelyn happy that her husband chose to break his marriage vow with his first love? I don't think for one second that would improve their relationship, and if anything it would make it worse. A moment of lust can be better understood by Catelyn, than Eddard truly loving another woman even if it was before they were truly a husband and wife.

Second, Catelyn could always break the information to someone in a fit of anger, and it might get back to Robert. Rumors are one thing. A complete confirmation is another thing entirely. I somehow doubt Robert is too dense to realize that there is something more to Ashara Dayne's death, if Ned had reason to lie to him about Wylla. Robert knew Ashara on some level, so if he knew she had a child by Ned, he might start to believe something isn't right with the whole situation. That road leads to discovering what happened at the Tower of Joy.

Here's one of my complaints with people who take R+L=J without question. Tywin says (forgive me if it's not the exact quote) "when you cut a man's tongue out, you're only proving that you're afraid of what he might say to the world." So if Jon isn't Ashara's child, why does Ned care so much when his household is whispering her name about as Jon's mother? The response people will give me is "he loved Ashara, and doesn't want her memory tarnished" (or some such equivalent wording). That sounds good for a hallmark card, but I don't buy it based on the seriousness he treated the issue.

Artanaro

[mormont]

Artanaro: usually, I find that when someone is writing loooooong involved answers to explain their theories they're highly invested in their belief. So, sorry if I don't get into a lengthy debate with you.

I'll confine myself to saying that your theory, involving as it does two babies, two fathers, two mothers, two pregnancies and one 'smokescreen' mother covering up for both, falls to Occam's Razor - the facts are more parsimoniously explained by R+L=J. Your theory requires many additional assumptions which, whether they stand up or not, are a problem simply by their necessity. Your first paragraph about Wylla's role, for example, is waaaay more complicated than her role in the R+L=J theory. Remember, George has to explain the whole scenario in the books. It has to be short and sweet. It all has to be explained by things we already know, perhaps cast in a different light by a later revelation: but the point is it would kill the story to have to explain why Ned didn't tell Robert this or why Wylla said that.

By contrast, none of the objections you've presented to R+L=J seem to me to be of any real substance, and certainly none give the R+L=J theory a significant enough problem to require an alternative explanation. R+L=J, I can say from years of experience, fits the facts best. I've read every alternative theory (yup, including variants on the 'two-babies' theory you propose) and none is anything like as robust as R+L=J. It's not indestructible, but it beats the hell out of every alternative theory I've seen in the last five years.

The timelines, by the way, work out exactly the same for Wylla as for Ashara. Jon must be indisputably younger than Robb, or Cat would be even more paranoid about his claim than she is. This is probably because there is no reason to think that Ned met Ashara at any time closely prior to the wedding to Cat. And there is no reason at all to consider it more likely that Ned ran into Ashara at any given point in the war than Wylla.

[Artanaro]

Your theory requires many additional assumptions which, whether they stand up or not, are a problem simply by their necessity. Your first paragraph about Wylla's role, for example, is waaaay more complicated than her role in the R+L=J theory... By contrast, none of the objections you've presented to R+L=J seem to me to be of any real substance, and certainly none give the R+L=J theory a significant enough problem to require an alternative explanation... It's not indestructible, but it beats the hell out of every alternative theory I've seen in the last five years.

The timelines, by the way, work out exactly the same for Wylla as for Ashara. Jon must be indisputably younger than Robb, or Cat would be even more paranoid about his claim than she is. This is probably because there is no reason to think that Ned met Ashara at any time closely prior to the wedding to Cat. And there is no reason at all to consider it more likely that Ned ran into Ashara at any given point in the war than Wylla. (quote edited for focus)

Here's the problem. People think my theory is too convoluted, I think R+L=J is too simplistic. I know I won't change anyone's opinions, but that's because they're rooted in opinion not facts. There is not enough concrete evidence to prove beyond a doubt either way.

Here are the lists of problems I have with R+L=J that I'm shocked people have no problem with. It just shows how subjective people's faith in Jon being Lyanna's child really is.

1.) Ned can take a stranger, Wylla, into his confidence about something as dangerous as Lyanna's son.

2.) Someone disappears at the same time Ned find Lyanna's child is nothing unusual.

3.) Ned can't bring Catelyn into his trust, but he can bring Wylla without a problem.

4.) The probability that Lyanna's child looks totally like Ned is very unlikely.

5.) The shame Ned feels about Jon is as simplistic as "a child should know the names of his parents."

6.) Parris even said it was "complicated" (actually, she said that R+L=J was "too basic" for Martin). Explain that one. I'm curious .

People like R+L=J because of how easy it is too connect the dots, even though it requires people to accept so many things with such weak evidence. You make the arguement that Martin couldn't invest so much time in something as complicated as this theory, but you should see my evidence about Varys being behind Moore's attempt on Tyrion's life. Things in life can be very complicated, especially in situations as unique as a child being reasons for starting a war.

Artanaro

[NYC Falcon]

When Ned met this Dornish lady, his brother Brandon was still alive, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, so there's no stain on your father's honor. There's nought like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, who can say? Words or kisses, maybe more, but where's the harm in that? Spring had come, or so they thought, and neither one of them was pledged."

Going by that information, logically, Jon would have to be older than Robb.

The following is based on my observation and no hard documentation:

As to any stigma for having a bastard, it seems there is none for the man or his house. For the woman in most of Westeros it seems to be a stigma. For Dorne it seems women are fairly free and therefore very little stigma. Ashara Dayne is from Dorne. There was little need to hide her alledged pregnancy. It would have been know. Edric Dayne would have been told that Jon was Ashara's child instead of Wylla's and the Daynes would have been enemies of the Starks just as the Martells are enemies of the Lannisters.

[mormont]

On Wylla: the simple and probably correct explanation is that Ned had no choice, because Wylla knew. He could trust her or kill her. It's that simple.

The probability that Jon looks like his uncle is extremely high. Arya looks like her aunt.

And Parris... Parris was asked about the R+L=J theory and gave an answer which sounded like a denial but was carefully phrased as a question - 'do you think George would do something like that?' or words to that effect. Even assuming that she actually knows, and only a handful of people in the world know that for sure (and none of those people are posting in this thread), she hasn't directly commented on it. And she won't. Neither will George. So that's a dead end, I'm afraid.

[NYC Falcon]

5.) The shame Ned feels about Jon is as simplistic as "a child should know the names of his parents."

6.) Parris even said it was "complicated". Explain that one. I'm curious .

Artanaro

"A child should know the names of his parents" not a child should know the name of his mother.

What would you expect Parris to say? It's simple you buffoon! Explained.

And as far as complicated my idea of twins is extremely complicated. Consider this with the known fact that GRRM love's to borrow from favorite stories as a form of homage.

[Artanaro]

When Ned met this Dornish lady, his brother Brandon was still alive, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, ..."

Going by that information, logically, Jon would have to be older than Robb.

It comes back to the issue that many on this board have. That Ned wouldn't have a bastard after his marriage to Catelyn. Harwin thinks along similiar lines. Whether the assumption is valid or not depends on someone's opinion. Harwin has no inside knowledge of Ashara and Ned's relationship (as seen from him referring to it as a rumor at Winterfell), so you can't use this to base Jon being older than Robb.

The following is based on my observation and no hard documentation:

As to any stigma for having a bastard, it seems there is none for the man or his house. For the woman in most of Westeros it seems to be a stigma. For Dorne it seems women are fairly free and therefore very little stigma. Ashara Dayne is from Dorne. There was little need to hide her alledged pregnancy. It would have been know. Edric Dayne would have been told that Jon was Ashara's child instead of Wylla's and the Daynes would have been enemies of the Starks just as the Martells are enemies of the Lannisters.

People are different, whether they're in Dorne or in the North. The Sandsnakes are a poor example in determining the cultural perspective on bastards in Dornish society (there are references to other bastards but in no significant detail). Oberyn isn't the type of man who cares what other people think about him or his family. Also, I must disagree with the point about there being no stigma attached to men as well. Cersei, even though she hates Robert, totally loathes the fact he is constantly fathering bastards. Lyanna is hesitant to marry Robert for having fathered one despite him being unmarried at the time. Catelyn considers Jon a dishonor directed towards herself. If Ashara wanted to conceal the heritage of her child, it may be for her own sake, but a strong arguement can be made that she wanted to protects Ned's honor as well.

My theory goes along the lines that the need to protect Jon's identity changes after Lyanna's child is found. It's no longer about protecting Eddard's name, but it's about protecting Ashara's disappearance.

Anyways, I know I'm right on this issue, but since I love debating, I'll get to everyone who responds in due time.

Artanaro

[Aludra]

#1 & #3: There must have been servants at the Tower of Joy, likely a midwife. Very possible that Wylla was amongst these and even trusted by Lyanna.

I don't get #2, #3 isn't that unlikely but I will admit fortunate.

My main concern with the double-baby theory is from a story-telling perspective. It seems that this child of Lyanna and Rhaegar's is of some significance; where is it? Why haven't we met it?

[Artanaro]

On Wylla: the simple and probably correct explanation is that Ned had no choice, because Wylla knew. He could trust her or kill her. It's that simple.

And R+L=J falls apart. This a weak explanation.

The probability that Jon looks like his uncle is extremely high. Arya looks like her aunt.

Answer me this, how would R+L=J work at all, if Lyanna's son looked like Rhaegar instead of Ned? It would never be possible in hiding her child from Robert.

And Parris... Parris was asked about the R+L=J theory and gave an answer which sounded like a denial but was carefully phrased as a question - 'do you think George would do something like that?' or words to that effect. Even assuming that she actually knows, and only a handful of people in the world know that for sure (and none of those people are posting in this thread), she hasn't directly commented on it. And she won't. Neither will George. So that's a dead end, I'm afraid.

My point was directed to your comment that why would Martin choose such a complicated situation. You see that Parris response is a simple denial, but it's the fact she chooses the word "basic" provides credit to my theory. You say my theory is too "complicated", but that's the short coming she immediately considers against R+L=J. Believe what you want as I will do the same. But it's all just an opinion.

Artanaro

[Artanaro]

#1 & #3: There must have been servants at the Tower of Joy, likely a midwife. Very possible that Wylla was amongst these and even trusted by Lyanna.

I don't get #2, #3 isn't that unlikely but I will admit fortunate.

This is too much of a stretch. It's possible Wylla was a midwife at the Tower of Joy, but then it begs the question, why would Rhaegar and Lyanna trust her? And here's evidence against this. Wylla is a wet nurse of Edric Dayne, which implies she is a servant of the Dayne household. Wouldn't it be unusual for one of their peasant folk to be as far away as the Tower of Joy? And Wylla is a Dornish woman. By "kidnapping" Lyanna, Rhaegar had alienated many people in Dorne.

My main concern with the double-baby theory is from a story-telling perspective. It seems that this child of Lyanna and Rhaegar's is of some significance; where is it? Why haven't we met it?

This is the issue at it's basic level. We don't see Doran whatsoever until the fourth book, but he's have proven to be quite important. We still know so little about Ashara despite having her mentioned in the first hundred pages of AGOT. Why not? Westeros is a big continent, but it is only one continent in Martin's world. It has taken forever to learn about some of the best characters in only a few of the seven kingdoms. Just because people haven't come onscreen yet, doesn't mean it won't happen. There is still much of ASOIAF to tell.

Artanaro

[mormont]

Uh... what are the 'motives' of the R+L=J 'camp'?

[Artanaro]

Uh... what are the 'motives' of the R+L=J 'camp'?

I edited my post first . Anyways, I made a list of things I considered the true reasons people choose to support R+L=J. It's in this thread, give me a second to find it.

I found it. Read my post #78. The reason people choose R+L=J over other theories is quite subjective. I made a list of them in that post. Yes, I come off as self-rightous and condescending there, but the post has great merit.

Artanaro