Jon is the child of Eddard Stark and Ashara Dayne

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

They call the sword Dawn... And what is the Dawn, if not a shortened way of talking about the coming of the light? The Dawn brings Light. The sword we're looking for, which AA must wield is called "LightBringer"...

So basically Jon, due to his Dayne lineage, comes upon and wields Dawn against the others and becomes Azor Azhai? That's a cool idea, I'd never thought of it myself. I'm not sure how Jon would come upon Dawn though - any ideas on that front Blauer?

I prefer the idea that Dany = PwwP = Azor Azhai. But that's just me, the slavering Dany fan.

Then suppose that his sister, on her death-bed made him promise her that he would stay true to his duty. Don't you think that promise would have weighed equally deeply on him? Probably more so, even...

Sure it's possible. That's why I said I am convinced by alternative scenarios. However many people are not.

Another one I play around with is Lyanna making Ned promise not to tell Robert that she loved Rhaegar and not him (I personally think Lyanna loved Rhaegar, but that Jon is not their son).

Now, let's look at the logistics. It is mentioned that Jon's wet-nurse was a servant of Ashara Dayne. Now, supposing that was true. Would you have us believe that Ned traveled all the way to Dorne (with an infant!) to pick up a wet-nurse?

I'm not sure there is specific mention of Ned actually traveling to Dorne at this point. I don't think it's necessary for A+N=J to be true. But if he went it was probably to pay his respects to her grieving family. Perhaps he also returned the body of Arthur Dayne. There were plenty of reasons for him to go to Dorne apart from picking up Wylla (which I don't think he did anyway!)

We also don't know where Wylla was at the time. Ned found her somewhere else (I think R+Lers think she was already at ToJ when Ned arrived - I have another explanation more favorable to A+N = J , see below).

And would you have us believe that it was out of despair for having a servant leave to serve someone else that Ashara dove from her tower?

Woah there, I wouldn't "have you believe" anything - I'm on your side.

You seem to be arguing that Ashara killed herself after Ned took Jon from her?

I think Ashara's suicide is explainable without Jon being a big factor. Hearing news that your lover just killed your beloved brother and is soon leaving you forever for another woman would have been enough.

My vision of the timeline is - (and I'm very interested in your ideas here!)

Ned and Ashara meet (probably at Harrenhal (???) or maybe before) and fall in love

Brandon dies, Cat and Ned suddenly marry

Ashara comes to Ned in secret shortly after he leaves Cat the first time. They conceive Jon.

Ashara goes back to Dorne, Ned helps Robert and Jon Arryn with the war.

Ashara gives birth to Jon, Wylla is his wetnurse.

Ned sends word to Ashara that he is keeping to his marriage vows from now on.

Ned goes to ToJ with Howland Reed and others, kills Arthur Dayne, etc.

Ashara kills herself, having lost her love and her brother.

Ned is with Robert in KL cleaning up after the war.

Wylla brings Jon to Ned.

Ned goes back to Winterfell with Jon.

Now that her husband is back, Cat returns to Winterfell.

Now, are we to believe that Ned was able to do all of that and still get back to Winterfell before Catelyn made it there? It just doesn't fit. Now, his going immediately after his wedding, collecting his child and heading straight back to Winterfell would be a tight fit, but a fit none-the-less. His having the child and wet-nurse delivered to winterfell fits much better... and his arriving in Winterfell to find his lover (who'd been there with her servant) had birthed and ran from the shame when she heard news of his wedding fits even better (it just doesn't explain the child being left behind - unless there was some reason why taking the child would have been unsafe).

So you are saying Jon was conceived before Cat and Ned married? I'm not sure we know. Or if that's the case, I still don't see why Wylla couldn't just bring Jon to Ned after Ashara killed herself.

I never said anything about Ashara being alive... In fact I am about 99.99% certain that she is just as dead as Ned... So who was that response aimed at?

Heh, Blauer, that's the OP's theory. I find it extremely crack-potty myself. I just hope the guy that posted that doesn't think that all A+N = K believers are crazy like him.

[The_BlauerDragon]

All in all, I agree. I wouldn't go so far as to call Worthy Dayne crazy though. From my experience, his posts are usually well thought out and well articulated. As for the timeline, I think you may be on to something there. And yes, my theory would revolve around Jon's lineage and deeds becoming known, Dawn being delivered to him (and beginning to emit heat) and him fulfilling the prophesy and fighting the others while wielding it. I cannot recall any specific mention of WHERE Ned went during that time, but he went SOMEWHERE and came back with baby Jon and his wet-nurse... and that was right around the time that Ashara took a dive. Also, it is odd that Wylla keeps even getting mentioned since she served Ashara and would have most likely been wherever Ashara was. She makes a bit TOO convenient an allibie (Sp.?) for an affair between Ned and Ashara. Finally, my arguement is that Ashara lost her love, lost her brother, and lost her son... That is what drove her to suicide, and that is the thing that has most haunted Ned over the years. The thing that he had to push from even his own mind in order to be able to go on. The sadness that filled him whenever he lingered on thoughts of Jon, or Arthur Dayne, or his sister making him promise her... The shame that tore away at his heart.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

All in all, I agree. I wouldn't go so far as to call Worthy Dayne crazy though. From my experience, his posts are usually well thought out and well articulated

To clarify, I'm not calling Worthy Dayne crazy. I was calling the OP crazy (whoever posted the thread originally and thinks Ashara faked her death). Arturno or something?

Maybe they aren't actually crazy though - but it's a pretty crackpot idea. I was hoping WD wouldn't think we were all as crackpot as the original theory!

[The_BlauerDragon]

To clarify, I'm not calling Worthy Dayne crazy. I was calling the OP crazy (whoever posted the thread originally and thinks Ashara faked her death). Arturno or something?

Maybe they aren't actually crazy though - but it's a pretty crackpot idea. I was hoping WD wouldn't think we were all as crackpot as the original theory!

Oh, my bad... I apologize to both of you then.

[Kaeln]

I've said before (to little effect) that Ned (or someone) taking Jon to Dorne at birth is not evidence against R+L, it is probably evidence for:

Simply put, no one knows what Jon looks like before he is born. If he ends up having the Targaryen look, given the state of the war, he has to be stashed somewhere where the Targaryen look is common: Dorne. Alternatively, they may have been waiting for his hair to come in (Stark and Targaryen hair colorings are by no means identical); in either case, the pretext of handing over Dawn works to Ned's advantage.

And it is hardly like N+A = J answers all our questions.

What is the blue rose (associated with Lyanna and no one else that's been alive in hundreds of years) on the Wall?

If Jon has nothing to do with R + L, why is it that Ned treats him exactly as a nobleborn son, except when King Robert comes to visit (who probably thinks about R & L more than anyone alive in his life), where Jon gets positioned so far from Robert that they nearly literally can't see each other? It's hardly some common hatred for bastards - first off, Robert is quite familiar with them, and sure, Jon might not sit at the King's table, but in the worst spot in the building? Unlikely. Not to mention Ned is familiar with Robert's bastards (he holds Edric as a baby, I believe), but manages to never have Robert and Jon run into each other, nor will take Jon anywhere near KL? Why is Ned so adamant that Robert never see Jon if there is nothing for Robert to discover?

If men are so considered to be the child of their fathers, why does Jon not feel the Stark family crypts are right for him?

Etc.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

And it is hardly like N+A = J answers all our questions.

What is the blue rose (associated with Lyanna and no one else that's been alive in hundreds of years) on the Wall?

Now wait just a minute. Who are you to say that no one else is associated with the Blue Rose? You haven't read the next 3 books. Many of Dany's prophecies are unclear until much later in the series. The blue rose may be one of them.

Please refer to my post on the last page for other possibilities regarding the Blue Rose.

If Jon has nothing to do with R + L, why is it that Ned treats him exactly as a nobleborn son, except when King Robert comes to visit (who probably thinks about R & L more than anyone alive in his life),

This is easily explained by the same impuse that made Ned say to Cat "You can't bring a bastard to court" when she demanded he take Jon with him because she wouldn't allow him to say in Winterfell. It's simply not done to have a bastard seen anywhere near the level of royalty. Ned feels comfortable treating Jon well in the company of family because, well, that's family. But he clearly draws a line between true born and bastard in the company of any other high lord, and especially a king.

I think he was less afraid of the whoring Robert's bad opinion than that of the rest of his court.

I've never heard this particular argument though. Interesting perspective.

If men are so considered to be the child of their fathers, why does Jon not feel the Stark family crypts are right for him?

Etc.

Because he's a bastard (a Snow) and he will never be lain to rest in the Stark's crypt? His uneasiness is a sign that his path will lead elsewhere than life as a Stark (to glory in the Night's Watch as it turns out).

[Euron]

Well, my take.

I like the Ned-Dayne connection.

Keeping bastards aorund the castle isn't all that strange, just look at the pervert old man Frey. He has plenty of them. Roose Bolton also makes his handy.

And when Sam goes through the records of Wall Commanders, many of them are Stark bastards. Where were they raised at? We don't know, but it would be at least in the North, most likely at Winterfell or one of the leage towns.

I believe there are places in the books where it is decribed that some fathers embrace their bastards, some are ashamed, and others simply ignore them.

If J=R&L, then I doubt Ned would keep him at Winterfell. He would probably send him off to the Karstarks, which is even farther removed form the rest of the kingdom. While he would worry about him, he could always bring him back to squire when he turned the right age, and Cat nor anyone else would be the wiser, J would just be a cousin's cousin.

But in the Game of Thrones, you don't give your own flesh and blood away easily, certainly not as a baby. He had no idea his first born would be a male. In fact he would never be certain if he would have males at all until Rob came along. After that were 2 girls, so he would keep J up until Cat had Bran. Only then would he have 2 heirs. But by then J is old enough to be trained as a squire. Ultimately, Ned had probably planned for Jon to go to the wall when he came of age, just like Ned's younger brother and so many Stark bastards before him. Ned would NOT have sent the son of R+L to the wall so easily, or even at all. He would keep him as a barganing chip just in case Dany or her brother did return with power.

The rule of the wall and the Starks are intertwined. Note all the younger Starks and Snows in the commander line. No doubt they had planed on Benjen to be the commander when his time came, and then maybe Jon after him. The Starks and their bannermen are the main supporters of the Black Cloaks, so their offspring would have it easier to get votes in any of their elections.

[Rogue Warrior]

This probably has come up before, but I'll say it anyway as it is of importance if you want to discuss this (I think ).

The Wolves... was it coincidence? I think not... it's just unlikely in the series that such a thing would be coincidence. Meaning the numbers and gender of the wolves.

Jon gets one as well, an outsider, but still, does this mean he's a son of Ned, a Stark kid (maybe Lyanna's?) or that it's just coincidence (which I find very hard to believe)? I think that, if it's no coincidence, it would be kids of the same father because those wolves are of one litter...

Wow, I never thought of that, "those wolves are of one litter", barring coincidences, Ned is the father. I pretty much am on the R+L=J side, but that's heavy, dude!

[The_BlauerDragon]

Wow, I never thought of that, "those wolves are of one litter", barring coincidences, Ned is the father. I pretty much am on the R+L=J side, but that's heavy, dude!

Heavy and often overlooked. Of course this probably means that the supporters of the theory which must not be named, are now going to switch gears and begin asserting that Rhaegar was a hermaphrodite and that N+R=J... :cool:

As to the blue rose? My guise is that it was more convenient, more subtle, and flowed better (also less obvious) than having her dream of a Red Fish sprouting from the trousers of a man dressed in black standing atop a massive wall of ice... Of course, had he done that there would probably still be insistance that the Red was a referrence to the Dragon Knight's Ruby covered armor, but I digress...

***For those that may be stalwart believers of the theory which shall not be named, I was referring to a literary term known as a "Red Herring... look it up.

[A wilding]

Keeping bastards aorund the castle isn't all that strange, just look at the pervert old man Frey. He has plenty of them. Roose Bolton also makes his handy.

And when Sam goes through the records of Wall Commanders, many of them are Stark bastards. Where were they raised at? We don't know, but it would be at least in the North, most likely at Winterfell or one of the leage towns.

I believe there are places in the books where it is decribed that some fathers embrace their bastards, some are ashamed, and others simply ignore them.

Walder Frey has a paternity obsession, even so he makes a sharp distinction between his true born and bastard children. Roose brought his bastard into his household only after his wife and son had died, clearly he was grooming him to be legitimised and to become his heir. Sure, some lords acknowledge and support their bastards, but they don't bring them up with their true born children under their wives noses. There is no tradition of Stark bastards being raised in Winterfell.

On the idea of Ashara Dayne sneaking north to have an affair with married Ned during the war. Certainly there are hints of an attraction between them, but the issue is whether Ashara would be the wild, headstrong type to do such a thing. We have had no hints that she is, in stark (sorry) contrast to Lyanna, hence my opinion that her doing so would be unfair.

It could be argued perhaps that Dornish customs are so different that such behaviour is unremarkable for a Dornish maiden. The issue with this though is that if so, wouldn't Ashara have been a little more careful about contraception? And if it failed, one would expect that in that case Dornish society would take such behaviour in its stride, meaning that her bastard child would be accepted and looked after in Dorne much better than if he was dragged off to be bought up somewhere with a much stronger stigma against bastards.

As for the "blue rose"; obviously other explanations than R+L=J can be constructed to explain it, and Ned's promise to Lyanna, etc, etc. However, Occam's Razor applies here.

[Worthy Dane]

Oh, my bad... I apologize to both of you then.

No problem. I too was responding to the OP, whose theory is defiitely crackpot.

[The_BlauerDragon]

No problem. I too was responding to the OP, whose theory is defiitely crackpot.

I agree that the OP's arguement is severely flawed, but I have maintained for a long time that N+A=J, and unless GRRM says otherwise I will go to my grave holding fast to the idea that R was not a part of the equation. I'll admit that there are other possibilities. He may be Lyanna's bastard from some other guy, or he may even be Benjen's bastard for all we know, but N+A=J is the theory that makes the most sense to me, has the most textual evidence to back it, and fits into the story progression best (as far as I see it). Now, if this were a different type of book, and (for example) the white cloaks were running around castrating fire mages instead of guarding the king, and Dany had spent the last 15 of her chapters locked in a dry and sarcastic dialogue with Drogon, and one of the wights had kidnapped Sam and was currently forcing him to take dicatation while he sat and lamented his stories of how hard it was to be a reanimated corpse... Well, then I might expect the theory which shall not be named to be true.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Ned would NOT have sent the son of R+L to the wall so easily, or even at all. He would keep him as a barganing chip just in case Dany or her brother did return with power.

This is a very strong point in favor of N+A - I'll keep this in mind. I'm thinking of starting a new thread on this topic synthesizing all our thoughts on the matter...

I think the response would be something like (if R+L=J) Lyanna made Ned promise NEVER to let Jon's parentage be known to anyone, including himself - to treat him as if he were a regular bastard... But you're right, I think even in that case it would be worthwhile to keep Rhaegar's son close to you, so it is a weakness in R+L=J.

[The_BlauerDragon]

[EDITED]

This is a very strong point in favor of N+A - I'll keep this in mind. I'm thinking of starting a new thread on this topic synthesizing all our thoughts on the matter...

I think the response would be something like (if the theory that must not be named) Lyanna made Ned promise NEVER to let Jon's parentage be known to anyone, including himself - to treat him as if he were a regular bastard... But you're right, I think even in that case it would be worthwhile to keep Rhaegar's son close to you, so it is a weakness in the theory that must not be named.

I was thinking of doing a new thread sometime this weekend that will take all of the finer points of N+A=J and add book quotations where required to support the arguement and present it in all it's valid glory, perhaps we should collaborate on the effort. Present it as a strongly stated case of why the theory that must not be named, truly belongs on the list of crackpot theories.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

On the idea of Ashara Dayne sneaking north to have an affair with married Ned during the war. Certainly there are hints of an attraction between them, but the issue is whether Ashara would be the wild, headstrong type to do such a thing. We have had no hints that she is, in stark (sorry) contrast to Lyanna, hence my opinion that her doing so would be unfair.

Yeah, you're right - we know very little about Ashara's character, so it's hard to tell what she would do!

Because I think Ned and Ashara actually hooked up (not just attraction), I've come up with my own (highly romanticised) ideas of what her character was probably like.

My envisioning of the scenario is that Ashara is something like a cross between Aryanne Martell and Lyanna Stark - so yeah. Very headstrong, passionate, and someone who knows what she wants and then goes for it. I like the idea of someone like that being Ned's love.

To me, this makes sense. He's far to reserved to start a relationship on his own with a quiet, well-mannered Sansa-type girl. Also Ashara being a passionate, firey personality in constrast to Ned, fits with her decision to take her own life in the end.

It could be argued perhaps that Dornish customs are so different that such behaviour is unremarkable for a Dornish maiden. The issue with this though is that if so, wouldn't Ashara have been a little more careful about contraception?

If customs are different enough (or even just if Ashara loved Ned deeply enough), she might very well have wanted Ned's child, even if he was a bastard. I do wish we knew more about Dorne for reference though.

Or, you could say it was definitely a spur of the moment decision to find Ned. I imagine her running out the moment the letter about marriage to Catelyn Tully arrives. In her haste may have forgotten bring along a year's supply of Moon Tea.

And if it failed, one would expect that in that case Dornish society would take such behaviour in its stride, meaning that her bastard child would be accepted and looked after in Dorne much better than if he was dragged off to be bought up somewhere with a much stronger stigma against bastards.

Indeed! Two possibilities here.

1) Ned arrives in Dorne, Ashara having killed herself (or maybe she kills herself after he arrives with Arthur's body, I don't know). He takes Jon back to Winterfell because he loves Ashara and wants Jon as a reminder of her (this also explains how sad Ned is when he thinks of Jon...)

2) Before killing herself Ashara makes Wylla promise to bring Jon to Ned because she thinks he should be with his father (again so he can have Jon as a reminder of their love).

As for the "blue rose"; obviously other explanations than R+L=J can be constructed to explain it, and Ned's promise to Lyanna, etc, etc. However, Occam's Razor applies here.

Eh, I dont' know. I think it's a teensy tiny detail that I for one didn't even notice outside these boards. There's plenty of other unsolved prophecies from the House of the Undying - why aren't people dwelling on those? I only provide alternate explanations because so many people seem hung up on that detail.

[Errant Bard]

On the idea of Ashara Dayne sneaking north to have an affair with married Ned during the war. Certainly there are hints of an attraction between them, but the issue is whether Ashara would be the wild, headstrong type to do such a thing. We have had no hints that she is, in stark (sorry) contrast to Lyanna, hence my opinion that her doing so would be unfair.

There is no contrast, we know next to nothing from Ashara, we have no hints that she is not that type. In fact, I would say that she was a willful romantic, considering the way she -supposedly- died. A pragmatic or someone without guts would not throw herself from a window. I have no problem imagining a romantic disregarding anything to be with her man. I would expect a Sansa to elope as much as a Lyanna... more actually.

The issue with this though is that if so, wouldn't Ashara have been a little more careful about contraception?

What contraception? Even Cersei could not avoid becoming pregnant with Robert's child. Several times. But anyway, it's a non issue since if Ashara indeed had Ned's child, it is because she wanted it, considering how efficient and available moon tea is to nobles.

As for the "blue rose"; obviously other explanations than R+L=J can be constructed to explain it, and Ned's promise to Lyanna, etc, etc. However, Occam's Razor applies here.

Occam's razor is just a method to choose, it doesn't mean what you choose is the truth. It seldom works for fiction plots anyway.

[The_BlauerDragon]

Occam's razor is just a method to choose, it doesn't mean what you choose is the truth. It seldom works for fiction plots anyway.

The sad thing is, that whenever any logical means of deduction is applied to a scenario where there are as many unknown variables as this one the result you will recieve inevitably becomes the one that you were expecting. The same is true with much research and logic in general.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

I was thinking of doing a new thread sometime this weekend that will take all of the finer points of N+A=J and add book quotations where required to support the arguement and present it in all it's valid glory, perhaps we should collaborate on the effort. Present it as a strongly stated case of why the theory that must not be named, truly belongs on the list of crackpot theories.

Let's start collecting quotes - soon we can begin to rival the L+R=J biased "Tower of the Hand" for sheer information! Here's a starter quote, the one where Catelyn speculates on N+A:

Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes.

So basically this means that YES, Ned does return to Starfall after the ToJ events, and at that time Ashara is alive.

So my timeline would be altered such that Ned returning Arthur's sword, and then leaving to return to Cat is what triggers Ashara's suicide. Works for me. Then I think Wylla would find Ned and give him Jon (under Ashara's orders most likely).

[A wilding]

Agreed, Ned visited Starfall after the ToJ, and most likely met Ashara again there. However, Jon being conceived then doesn't appear to fit in well with the timeline.

Catelyn heard of Jon "in the first year of her marriage" and when she went to take up residence in Winterfell after the war Jon was already there. If Jon was conceived during Ned's visit to Starfall, Ned must have gone there much less than a year after marrying Catelyn, and Catelyn could not have gone to Winterfell until nearly a year after the visit (at the earliest).

[The_BlauerDragon]

So my timeline would be altered such that Ned returning Arthur's sword, and then leaving to return to Cat is what triggers Ashara's suicide. Works for me. Then I think Wylla would find Ned and give him Jon (under Ashara's orders most likely).

I would alter that timeline slightly. I believe that the love afair between Ned and Ashara pre-dates his marriage to Cat and I see it as his collecting Jon (and Wylla) when he dropped of the sword. Yes, Ashara was alive at that time, and Ned was married to Cat by then... I think it just fits with the timeline better for it to go that way, but I could be wrong, because we don't know for certain that Ned traveled back to Winterfell with Jon. So it is possible that Wylla delivered him after. I just would find it odd that their romance would start AFTER he kills her brother.