Howland Reed = Knight of the Laughing Tree?

[Artanaro]

Sorry, this post is gonna be long, but this is one of my favourite debates.

You think yours are long, just wait .

I'll give you the punchline now though: I personally am more certain that Lyanna is the KotLT than I am of any other theory except R+L=J. In fact, I would bet real money on it.

I hope you do, I'm going to make a fortune when the next book comes out. Especially from R+L=J being wrong.

Again, Brandon suffers most. He clearly had his own armour.

Let me start with the nitpicking details. This statement isn't a fact. It's based on the assumption that since Brandon is considered a good fighter and he's of the proper age, he would normally want to participate. Not necessarily. However, the dimensions used to describe the KotLT don't match Brandon and the motive for hiding his identity is weak, so I agree, we should rule him out.

The fourth thing we know is that the KotLT took a laughing weirwood as his symbol. This suggests two things: connection to the North and vivacity. The first is a strike against Ashara, though Artanaro (IIRC) has an ingenious solution to that. The second is a strike against Ned. Laughing ain't his thing.

It's funny. There is only one person in Meera's story that is associated with "laughing" and it isn't Lyanna. But people shrug that evidence aside. I wonder why (actually I'm pretty sure why ).

Ned is not notably small either. He would be almost fully grown at that time, and wielding a greatsword is not something a man 'small of stature' would be able to do.

I wouldn't use this as reason to decide whether he was small of stature or not. Ned is described as shorter than Brandon, but he could still have had a late growth spurt. It is still feasible that he is young enough at the time of Harrenhal to be shorter than most knights.

Why would any of the male candidates need to disguise their voice in this fashion? Nobody would recognise Howland's voice whatever happened: this is a big strike against him. For the rest of the males, the greathelm would distort their voices beyond easy recognition anyway, and they already have recognisably male voices. Only someone who did not have a distinctively male voice would need to put on a 'booming' voice as a disguise.

I personally think Lyanna and Ashara are the only two choices, but I disagree with this point. In a close enough proximity, someone could very well recognize the mystery knight. It's not a fact of simply "easy recognition", but just to be safe. Anyway, this arguement is debatable here.

Now, the sixth thing is the one where people usually insist it couldn't be Lyanna: the KotLT was good enough to win three jousts. On this one, all I'm going to add is: if we take Brandon and Ned out, this counts equally for all the candidates.

This is bad logic. To argue Lyanna, it must be consistent that she is the best Stark with a lance. Otherwise, it does no purpose to be a mystery knight to avenge Howland, if you're going to be unhorsed. If the only possible candidates for the KotLT are Starks, then Brandon is the best choice. He's the oldest, strongest, and totally without Lyanna's disadvantages when it comes to training. The fact the description of the KotLT goes against him, serves to hurt Lyanna's case.

(I think the earlier discussion of the Mormonts missed the crucial point, btw: Dacey Mormont is a female warrior of about the same build as we could expect of Lyanna or Ashara, and fights well. Yes, she's had training and there are arguments that the latter two have not, but she does provide an example of a slight (non-Brienne) woman who wins fights against bigger male opponents.)

There actually isn't evidence of Dacey winning fights against superior foes. Fighting in a battle is far different from single combat. Every battle with Robb involved her being on the side with either surprise or a number advantage. Nevertheless, it's very unlikely Dacey with her training could pick up a lance and beat three champions. Remember, the ones the KotLT defeated weren't the original or even the ones after them. They achieved their position later in the tourney proving they were quite skilled. It is a stretch to think Dacey could take three champions at a tourney. It's even more so to think Lyanna could it.

The basic argument here is, what purpose does the whole story serve in each case? Not so much 'why is Meera telling it to Bran', nor even 'why do the Reeds expect Bran to know it and why didn't Ned tell him it': we can come up with answers to that in each case. Whoever the KotLT was, Ned didn't like talking about Lyanna and that is sufficient answer, because the story involves her.

Ned nevers talks about his mother, nor does he like to talk about Wylla. The only time Ashara is mentioned in his presence he consequently scolds the house servants at Winterfell. This logic only supports the case of Lyanna if you already think she is the one.

No, the question is: why is GRRM telling it to us? Why is it in the book at all? What significance does it have to the story, other than background detail?

...

If the story is about Ned: again, what does it tell us that we don't already know?

...

If the story is about Ashara, it tells us she was strong and fierce. Could have been done some other way though. And it really doesn't link to anything else in the books.

This story tells us lots about Ashara and Ned's relationship. It reveals how they met, but more importantly it shows that Ned was fond of her. The question the story does not answer directly is how Ashara felt about Ned. But perhaps it does. If Ashara is the KotLT, then the story shows how much she cared about Ned and what was important to him. That is much more than she being simply strong and fierce.

But if the story is about Lyanna... then, it explains why Rhaegar gave her the crown of love and beauty, publicly humiliating his wife over a woman he barely knew. He did it because he knew she was the KotLT, and wanted to recognise her as the 'true' winner. It also explains what Rhaegar saw in Lyanna: something more than beauty, her spirit and bravery, and why therefore he might feel she was the one to give birth to the PwwP. It explains why GRRM is telling us this story: it's crucial background for the whole R+L=J theory.

This is a forced rationalization. We know why Rhaegar fell in love with Lyanna from Dany's vision. It's simple. There are three heads to a dragon. Rhaegar needed another child. We can understand how Lyanna could fall in love with Rhaegar from when his song made her cry. Many girls like romantics. Concerning her spirit and bravery, the story does so without needing her to be the KotLT. She saves Howland Reed from some mean squires. She spills a cup of wine on her brother's head. And don't get me started on R+L=J.

Nothing else fits the story half as well.

Nahh, you're just seeing what you want to see.

I don't think that's the argument, so much as that the theory of Lyanna Stark as the Knight of the Laughing Tree would just explain how the two got to talking in the first place and why Rhaegar Targaryen was affected so much by her in however little time they had before then to name her Queen of Love and Beauty...as well as contribute a bit of additional drama to the R+L=J (or R+L=?) situation.

Which is based on the assumption that Rhaegar found the mystery knight. This assumption has no facts to support it, especially in Meera's story.

My point about the crown is not that Rhaegar could not have fallen for Lyanna without her being the KotLT: naturally, he could. It is that, even if he had, he has no reason to signal this by publicly presenting her with the crown as a token of his love in front of everyone who's anyone in Westeros.

But that is the point behind your logic. For your logic to work, there must be something special about crowning Lyanna the queen of love and beauty. Which I agree would be the case. But the fault in your logic is that being the KotLT is the only reason to crown her. This is wrong. Why can't that be simply because Rhaegar wants Lyanna to fall in love with him?

And since people always love to say I don't read what people wrote, let me quote you again.

"But if the story is about Lyanna... then, it explains why Rhaegar gave her the crown of love and beauty, publicly humiliating his wife over a woman he barely knew. He did it because he knew she was the KotLT, and wanted to recognise her as the 'true' winner."

"Yeah... but the Lyanna version explains the crown of roses. "

The crown of roses is easily explained without Lyanna being the KotLT.

It's political suicide. He's snubbing his wife, and thereby making enemies of the Martells: and enraging Robert, and thereby making enemies of the Baratheons. That's not love, or infatuation: that's lunacy. And nothing we know about Rhaegar suggests he is that kind of idiot. It makes no sense unless he has another motive as well.

No, running off with Lyanna was political suicide. Crowning her is just quite rude, even more rude when you're doing it to get a girl in the sack. However, he wants his third head of the dragon.

Artanaro

[Steve Moss]

Ned is described as shorter than Brandon, but he could still have had a late growth spurt. It is still feasible that he is young enough at the time of Harrenhal to be shorter than most knights.

GRRM implies in SSM that this is currently happening with Jon. At the end of aSoS, Jon is around 5'8", 5'9". In what was to be the five year gap, GRRM states that Jon was "filling out nicely" or words to that effect. Wasn't Jon about 17 at aSoS' conclusion?

[Grant Dempsey]

Which is based on the assumption that Rhaegar found the mystery knight. This assumption has no facts to support it, especially in Meera's story.

No, indeed, but, considering the sequence of events, it's not a stretch to suppose that he did. Why would George R.R. Martin have written it into the story if there was no possibility that he had? It's still a strong point to bring up, even if just to reinforce that Lyanna Stark as the Knight of the Laughing Tree does fit what we do know.

Besides, your point about Rhaegar Targaryen's need for her is no fact in itself. He said he needed a third child, yes, but nothing was said about him reaching the conclusion of combining "ice and fire" through Stark blood and Targaryen blood immediately. Perhaps the Knight of the Laughing Tree's identity was what first brought her to mind as far as the necessity for a third child was concerned. It's not the only possible explanation, but it's a valid one and, again, one which contributes drama to the sequence of events in the R+L=J (or indeed just R+L=? -- either way) situation.

Here's another point. Jojen Reed seemed surprised, several times, that Bran Stark had never heard the tale. If we suppose that the Reeds actually knew who the Knight of the Laughing Tree was and that it was a factor in why Jojen was surprised that Bran had never heard it from his father, it wouldn't make as much sense, if it had been Ashara Dayne. The woman who Eddard Stark loved yet could never have been with and who was somewhat well-known to have killed herself over a "broken heart". Why would the Reeds assume that he would have happily told the tale around Winterfell, especially as he was married to someone else?

[Artanaro]

No, indeed, but, considering the sequence of events, it's not a stretch to suppose that he did. Why would George R.R. Martin have written it into the story if there was no possibility that he had? It's still a strong point to bring up, even if just to reinforce that Lyanna Stark as the Knight of the Laughing Tree does fit what we do know.

Actually it is. Here's why. Meera says all that was ever found of the KotLT was his painted shield. If it's a good assumption that the real KotLT admitted it to his/her friends they were the person, Howland would know if the real person was caught (if he/she was a Stark). Since it's a good assumption Rhaegar didn't find the person, he'd have no more evidence than we have. Any evidence that pointed to the knight being a woman would go for it being Ashara or Lyanna. Perhaps the rose was a guess on his part, but why would you crown someone just over a guess. Nahh, Rhaegar's need for a third child far better explains that.

Besides, your point about Rhaegar Targaryen's need for her is no fact in itself. He said he needed a third child, yes, but nothing was said about him reaching the conclusion of combining "ice and fire" through Stark blood and Targaryen blood immediately.

Rhaegar's a smart guy. He makes the statement around the time Elia gives birth to Aegon. The tourney at Harrenhal is a little while after. But in any case, my point is to contradict Mormont's arguement that Lyanna as the KotLT was the most compelling reason for Rhaegar to crown her the queen of love and beauty. It is not. There is a perfectly good explanation that covers Lyanna's coronation. Without that reason, there is a better case for Ashara then Lyanna (Rickard's command, Ashara being a dornish woman, laughing tree=laughing girl, northerners were less fond of tourneys and therefore less likely to devote their time to practicing for such).

One more thing. People are focusing on Lyanna's coronation as evidence. Meera doesn't include that in her story. Bran mentions that it should happen, and she confirms it did. So if Meera knows who the KotLT is, why is the coronation irrelavent to her story?

Perhaps the Knight of the Laughing Tree's identity was what first brought her to mind as far as the necessity for a third child was concerned. It's not the only possible explanation, but it's a valid one and, again, one which contributes drama to the sequence of events in the R+L=J (or indeed just R+L=? -- either way) situation.

Logically, it's no more evidence than saying Ned would be the knight for honor's sake. Both establishes a possible motive, but that's all they do. Mormont's logic comes down to, since Rhaegar crowning Lyanna is only explained by her being the KotLT, it therefore supports his arguement. If it was the only explanation, he would be correct. But it is not the only explanation, so it doesn't work.

Here's another point. Jojen Reed seemed surprised, several times, that Bran Stark had never heard the tale. If we suppose that the Reeds actually knew who the Knight of the Laughing Tree was and that it was a factor in why Jojen was surprised that Bran had never heard it from his father, it wouldn't make as much sense, if it had been Ashara Dayne. The woman who Eddard Stark loved yet could never have been with and who was somewhat well-known to have killed herself over a "broken heart". Why would the Reeds assume that he would have happily told the tale around Winterfell, especially as he was married to someone else?

If Eddard was really fond of her, it make good sense that he would tell a story about her to his children. The Dayne family was really fond of Eddard(even though he is supposedly the cause of Ashara killing herself) and Edric was raised hearing stories about him to the point he wanted to meet him, but lacked the courage. Harrenhal is the point people assume where they fell in love. What the Reeds never realized (in my opinion), Eddard felt so guilty for depriving Jon of his living mother and what his love for Ashara involved, that he could never even discuss anything about his past.

Though I think Ashara is the KotLT, I really think Eddard could be the one also. People assume his motive would be honor, but that's too easy for me. However, it provides another dimension to the story if being the KotLT is what wins Ashara's heart to him. I can accept that.

Artanaro

[mormont]

Well, I've taken up a lot of bandwidth in this thread so I'll try to be as brief as I can.

This statement isn't a fact. It's based on the assumption that since Brandon is considered a good fighter and he's of the proper age, he would normally want to participate.

If you want to nitpick... we know that Brandon participated. Rhaegar defeated him. Therefore he had armour.

It is still feasible that he is young enough at the time of Harrenhal to be shorter than most knights.

Hmm. I'm terrible on dates, but I think Ned was older than Jon is at the time of Harrenhal.

However, see above. I acknowledge Ned is a possible candidate, one of the strongest, except for the 'story arguments', which as I say are not conclusive by their nature.

In a close enough proximity, someone could very well recognize the mystery knight['s voice]. It's not a fact of simply "easy recognition", but just to be safe. Anyway, this arguement is debatable here.

Yes, but that doesn't explain why a man would choose to disguise his voice by making it 'boom'. He could have roughened it, changed his accent, anything. OTOH, if you wanted to disguise a female voice as male... that's just what you would do. IMO. Again, this is just an opinion. The only fact we have is that the voice boomed. We have to make assumptions as to why.

To argue Lyanna, it must be consistent that she is the best Stark with a lance. Otherwise, it does no purpose to be a mystery knight to avenge Howland, if you're going to be unhorsed. If the only possible candidates for the KotLT are Starks, then Brandon is the best choice.

Well, what I said was 'if we take Brandon and Ned out, this counts equally for all the candidates'. I should have said 'remaining candidates' to be clearer perhaps...

However, many people have no problems believing that somehow Howland managed it. Typically there are a lot of people prepared to suspend their disbelief on that, but not on Lyanna's ability to do it. That's what I was getting at.

I would also note that a) this is a story: in reality, Lyanna might have got lucky, or might have cheated, or might have struggled to beat the knights, but that doesn't make it into the legend and the books are full of people beating far better lances when they are sufficiently inspired (Rhaegar does it in the very same story, and we know Jorah did it too). It's an old trope in tales of chivalry, no reason GRRM might not have used it here.

There actually isn't evidence of Dacey winning fights against superior foes.

No, I didn't say there was... don't want to overclaim. I'm just using her as an example of a woman NOT built like Brienne who not only fights but is evidently capable enough to fight regularly: she is one of Robb's guard and participates in many battles. This tends to undermine the argument that it is impossible for a woman with Lyanna's build to fight in knightly combat regardless of whether she is trained or not.

And if some of the medieval re-enactors on the board were here, they would tell you tales of getting their arses kicked by just such women...

This logic only supports the case of Lyanna if you already think she is the one.

You misunderstand my point. My point was that regardless of who the KotLT actually was, (assuming Ned knew who it was... which isn't a given) Ned wouldn't tell the tale because it involved Lyanna. The fact that Ned doesn't tell the tale is not evidence for Lyanna, Ned, Ashara or anyone else.

Not everything I posted was an argument in favour of my case.

This story tells us lots about Ashara and Ned's relationship. It reveals how they met, but more importantly it shows that Ned was fond of her. The question the story does not answer directly is how Ashara felt about Ned. But perhaps it does. If Ashara is the KotLT, then the story shows how much she cared about Ned and what was important to him. That is much more than she being simply strong and fierce.

Fair point. I think you're overstating slightly though... all we see is that Ned has a crush on Ashara, nothing more. For all we know after that dance he might have got over her.

We know why Rhaegar fell in love with Lyanna from Dany's vision. It's simple. There are three heads to a dragon. Rhaegar needed another child.

This is a factor in the R+L=J theory that gives a lot of us problems. Rhaegar coldly deciding to impregnate Lyanna because he decides she was the right woman for his prophecy doesn't sit well. It certainly isn't 'falling in love'. It's rather... clinical, and out of character from the little we know of Rhaegar.

But the fault in your logic is that being the KotLT is the only reason to crown her. This is wrong. Why can't that be simply because Rhaegar wants Lyanna to fall in love with him?

Because Rhaegar could have achieved that by other means, without incurring the cost associated with his actions with the crown. (You yourself point out how affected Lyanna was by his singing, frex.) He could have approached her privately, as it seems he did later anyway. If he chose to do it by presenting her with the crown instead, he's the biggest idiot in Westeros. It's not impossible that he was, of course... but it fits better if he had something else in mind.

[Steve Moss]

Because Rhaegar could have achieved that by other means, without incurring the cost associated with his actions with the crown. (You yourself point out how affected Lyanna was by his singing, frex.) He could have approached her privately, as it seems he did later anyway. If he chose to do it by presenting her with the crown instead, he's the biggest idiot in Westeros. It's not impossible that he was, of course... but it fits better if he had something else in mind.

Rhaegar was apparently smitten. People do a lot of stupid things when in love, Princes being no exception. Robb is a prime example.

[mormont]

Well, I do say it's not impossible.

But stupidity is one thing, this is another. It just doesn't chime for me, or for many other people, I know. Rhaegar is not a sixteen-year-old boy with little nous, several sudden bereavements to deal with and too many responsibilities thrust on him suddenly.

He's the crown prince. He's clever and politically savvy. And he's evidently well-regarded and respected by his father's chief nobles: well enough regarded that they are apparently willing to consider him replacing his father.

Besides, there were a hundred better ways of winning Lyanna's heart.

But as I say... the good thing about this debate is there are many possible answers, nothing is conclusive (except perhaps that it wasn't Brandon, and even that is just extremely unlikely, I think ). That's why it never dies. This is just the answer that makes most sense to me. So much sense that it's one of the few theories I am willing to say I'm convinced by.

[Rockroi]

Meera and Jojen expect that Ned told the story of the KotLT to Bran.

Doesn't it strike you as just a wee bit ... tactless for Meera and Jojen to expect Ned Stark to tell his young son a story about how his (according to your theory) disgruntled lover did in a tourney?

I mean, for the story to be about Ashara Dayne Meera and Jojen would basically be saying, "Bran, you mean your father never told you the story about how the woman he boff'd one night won a tournament? I can't believe that your dad never told you and your brothers and sisters the story about how his illicit lover who he was cheating on your mother with beat up three knights?"

Even if Ashara Dayne was NOT Ned's lover (and therefore not Jon's mother) it seems bizzare that Meera and Jojen would EXPECT Ned to have told his children a story about this far-away princess.

The Reed children are taken aback that Ned did not tell Bran this story. PROBABLY because they think its a story about Lyanna. Why would Ned NOT tell him?

Ned nevers talks about his mother, nor does he like to talk about Wylla. The only time Ashara is mentioned in his presence he consequently scolds the house servants at Winterfell. This logic only supports the case of Lyanna if you already think she is the one.

No. It supporst the theory that Ned is rediculously paranaid about A PART of Lyanna's life - namely the "sleeping with Rhaegar" part. So it WOULD NOT be out of character for Ned to hide the uncomfortable truth from his children and let them connect the dots. Hell, if Ned Stark (of the famed "tell Cersei my whole plan") could figure out how Rhaegar met up with Lyanna its NOT a stretch to assume that his kids could figure it out; so Ned DOES NOT tell them anything about Harrenhal. And with good reason.

I aslo think that regardless of R+L=J, Rhaegar HAS to somehow meet Lyanna. There is no evidence that Rhaegar was a senseless monster who would even be capable of rape or kidnapping. Therefore, its far more probable that Lyanna went with him willingly. Why? Most likely, they knew each other. How? Well... KotLT provides an amazing oppertunity and an even more startaling "coincidence." Seems odd that it would not be part of a larger story.

On Combat:

I want to reiterate something I said before. Lyanna could have been a bad lance. She could have been a poor fighter. However, as Selmy, Mormont, Jaime, Robert, Cersei, Cat, Ned, the Hound, and others have stated: fighting in a tourney is NOT the same as war. All of them state that sometimes the strangest things happen and a great fighter is taken out by a lesser fighter. A shield slips, a horse rears, a lucky blow lands when it shouldn't have. So, it is not beyond the realm of possibilities to suggest that Lyanna could have beatne these three lords.

She is also smaller and a harder target to hit.

It also tells us something we already could assume (through Arya): that Lyanna was a risk taker; that when she had her mind set on something, there was no taking her mind off of it, regardless of the dangers or possibility of failure. She had a cause, she believed in it, and she saw a wrong she thought needed righting. This is the fleshing out of a character.

And note the KotLT said "Teach your squires honor..." Seems like the "Stark" thing to say. Could still be Ben or Ned (though for other reasons, I think not) but....

If its Ashara Dayne, it would seem an odd choice as she had no connection to anyone. I noted that Ned COULD have asked her. But remember in the story- Ned is too shy to even ask her to DANCE! So, afterthey Dance Ned walks over to her and asks her to ... ride ddown three squires? Would she do it of her own accord? I cannot see how she would as she and Howland probably never met. Why would she care?

I just think all the evidence (and its scant, I grant you) points inexplicably to Lyanna Stark.

[mormont]

Rock: good post, but I really think you meant 'inescapably' not 'inexplicably.

[Steve Moss]

He's the crown prince. He's clever and politically savvy. And he's evidently well-regarded and respected by his father's chief nobles: well enough regarded that they are apparently willing to consider him replacing his father.

"Clever and poltically savvy" is something of a stretch. I will grant you that he is intelligent and educated, courteous, and a good knight.

As to politically savvy, remember, Rhaegar let dear old Dad remain king. Aerys was mad and Rhaegar knew it. He concedes to Jamie Lannister that he made a mistake in not removing him. He intended to fix this *after* the war, when common sense indicates doing it while the war was ongoing (or at least before the armies began massing) might help mend some fences and lead to a negotiated settlement (i.e., Lyanna to Ned, "Ned, Rhaeghar did not kidnap me"; and, Rheagar to Ned, "I am pardoning all involved, your head will stay attached, and I will make compensation to the extent I can for your father and brother's deaths. By the way, we're family now too").

That indicates to me that Rhaegar did allow his emotions to cloud his judgement. If his love for his crazed father would cause him to delay taking necessary action (that delay resulting in a civil war), why wouldn't we entertain the possibility that his love for his beautiful, vibrant (in contrast to his wife, Elia), and above all non-crazed (in contrast to his Dad) girlfriend cause him to elope (or the Westeros equivalent)?

[Rockroi]

Ah... inescapably inexplivcable...? :/

Yes, I MEANT that the evidence points inescapably to Lyanna. Will not edit original post as its funnier this way.

[mormont]

stevem: who's talking about eloping? I was referring to the presenting-the-crown incident. I agree that Rhaegar eloped with Lyanna for love, yeah: I don't agree that the only reason he presented her with the crown of roses was to win her heart. That, to me, makes no sense, when he could have done the same thing a hundred different ways without causing a public scandal.

[Artanaro]

Well, I've taken up a lot of bandwidth in this thread so I'll try to be as brief as I can.

If you want to nitpick... we know that Brandon participated. Rhaegar defeated him. Therefore he had armour.

Hmm. I'm terrible on dates, but I think Ned was older than Jon is at the time of Harrenhal.

Hmm, I really do need to use Westeros more often to check my sources. Ok, I retract that statement.

However, see above. I acknowledge Ned is a possible candidate, one of the strongest, except for the 'story arguments', which as I say are not conclusive by their nature.

Yes, but that doesn't explain why a man would choose to disguise his voice by making it 'boom'. He could have roughened it, changed his accent, anything. OTOH, if you wanted to disguise a female voice as male... that's just what you would do. IMO. Again, this is just an opinion. The only fact we have is that the voice boomed. We have to make assumptions as to why.

Well, what I said was 'if we take Brandon and Ned out, this counts equally for all the candidates'. I should have said 'remaining candidates' to be clearer perhaps...

Booming still disguises his voice. A little point aside, I hate the fact in the movie Spiderman where Peter Parker uses his normal voice even behind the mask. Lots of people should have caught on in real life. In the movie Batman Begins though Christian Bale changes his voice as a safety measure(I forget exactly how though). My point is, just because a girl on average would choose a "booming" voice to conceal her identity, doesn't mean a guy can't choose the same method either.

However, many people have no problems believing that somehow Howland managed it. Typically there are a lot of people prepared to suspend their disbelief on that, but not on Lyanna's ability to do it. That's what I was getting at.

I'm not one of these people . I'm realistic too a fault. I think only Ned and Ashara can be good candidates realisticly (based on the fact Martin gives).

I would also note that a) this is a story: in reality, Lyanna might have got lucky, or might have cheated, or might have struggled to beat the knights, but that doesn't make it into the legend and the books are full of people beating far better lances when they are sufficiently inspired (Rhaegar does it in the very same story, and we know Jorah did it too). It's an old trope in tales of chivalry, no reason GRRM might not have used it here.

But Martin likes to be realistic in his approach to fantasy. Also, he doesn't like to be predictable . Really, the obvious choices are Lyanna and Howland, that's a subjective reason why I rule them out. But in the cases you mentioned. Rhaegar was a really good warrior, so I would take it he was a good lance as well. Look at the Hand's Tourney (though many of the best knights didn't participate). The final four are composed of Loras Tyrell, Sandor Clegane, Gregor Clegane and I forget the last person (maybe Renly). These are exceptional knights. You can sometimes win one match by luck, but you won't win three against good competition. Ser Jorah is a tough case, because even though he's a northerner, he's still a knight, which is unusual. Jorah would still need a very good amount of practice.

Personally, I don't think it's impossible for a girl/woman to beat three champions, but it very improbable for one without a good amount of training (especially against real competition). It's the same arguement about why Howland doesn't want to challenge them, he knows he'll embarass himself.

No, I didn't say there was... don't want to overclaim. I'm just using her as an example of a woman NOT built like Brienne who not only fights but is evidently capable enough to fight regularly: she is one of Robb's guard and participates in many battles. This tends to undermine the argument that it is impossible for a woman with Lyanna's build to fight in knightly combat regardless of whether she is trained or not.

See, the point about her fighting in combat is very important. Tyrion fights at the battle of the Greenfork, but no one is going to say he's a case of a dwarf defeating better foes. Also, training is still extremely important. Dacey has it. Lyanna has reasons for not having it. Training alone won't guarantee Dacey victory if she was the KotLT, but without it, it'll guarantee defeat.

You misunderstand my point. My point was that regardless of who the KotLT actually was, (assuming Ned knew who it was... which isn't a given) Ned wouldn't tell the tale because it involved Lyanna. The fact that Ned doesn't tell the tale is not evidence for Lyanna, Ned, Ashara or anyone else.

I understand that point. My arguement is, it doesn't support Lyanna is the KotLT, because here are perfectly acceptible reasons for Ned not to tell the story about Ashara or himself. Generally this is how I argue. I look at all the evidence. If the evidence can used for more than one person, it's actually irrelavent (except to eliminate candidates). So using this the evidence comes down to a woman(ignoring Ned as the possibility).

Ashara has these advantages: Dornishwoman, no Rickard as a father, described as laughing and the emblem on the shield is a laughing tree.

Even considering the story element, Ashara and Ned both as candidates work equally to Lyanna.

The advantage of Lyanna over Ashara is the weirwood tree. Though this has an explanation that accounts for it, if Ashara wants to win Ned's heart. I've yet to find a satisfactory explanation to how Lyanna can beat three champions.

Fair point. I think you're overstating slightly though... all we see is that Ned has a crush on Ashara, nothing more. For all we know after that dance he might have got over her.

This could be true except for three things. He takes Arthur Dayne's sword to her personally. Eddard is used as a reason she kills herself. And even the house servants at Winterfell think such a relationship happened.

This is a factor in the R+L=J theory that gives a lot of us problems. Rhaegar coldly deciding to impregnate Lyanna because he decides she was the right woman for his prophecy doesn't sit well. It certainly isn't 'falling in love'. It's rather... clinical, and out of character from the little we know of Rhaegar.

I agree Rhaegar's actions are out of character. But I think wanting to fullfill a prophecy works better than having a crush on the KotLT. Technically, both could explain it, but when one explanation is already present, it reduces the need for another.

Because Rhaegar could have achieved that by other means, without incurring the cost associated with his actions with the crown. (You yourself point out how affected Lyanna was by his singing, frex.) He could have approached her privately, as it seems he did later anyway. If he chose to do it by presenting her with the crown instead, he's the biggest idiot in Westeros. It's not impossible that he was, of course... but it fits better if he had something else in mind.

I agree it was bad to crown Lyanna. Nevertheless, if he already sees her as a candidate for fullfilling the prophecy, running off with her is still much worse than just giving her a rose. The thing is, it seems your using Lyanna's coronation as reason to make Rhaegar look less rude/idiotic. He still runs off with her. So I don't think he was ever at a point he care about what others thought.

Artanaro

[mormont]

Art:

My point is, just because a girl on average would choose a "booming" voice to conceal her identity, doesn't mean a guy can't choose the same method either.

Sure, I said as much myself. But it fits better for a girl.

But Martin likes to be realistic in his approach to fantasy.

Heh. This old bugbear...

GRRM is very realistic in his portrayal of character and human interaction, and he often tries to be in other ways too. But this is a fantasy novel: and people, in my experience, tend to overestimate how realistic it is.

There are fantastic elements all over the place, and I don't mean Melisandre and dragons and UnCat. People are larger than life: stunningly attractive, uncannily intelligent, freakishly strong, lightning quick, rapier-witted, proverbially wise, fearsomely skilled. And amazingly lucky. That most of all.

And GRRM, heresy though this is, makes mistakes. He often includes things that are in his opinion possible: but which turn out to be not realistic. He is only one guy and he has to fake it and wing it on a lot of the details.

Example: many readers have pointed out that the wildling arrows could not possibly have reached the top of a 700-foot wall (itself not a shining example of realism ). George thought they could. He was wrong. Did the arrows, therefore, not reach the top of the Wall? They can't have! It's impossible! Yet they did.

So: what matters is whether George thinks Lyanna could have competed, and won. And what George thinks is realistic, or possible. That's why the argument from realism is always weak, IMO. It depends on assumptions about the author's knowledge and opinions, just as much as 'character' arguments do.

Also, he doesn't like to be predictable

Two chestnuts in two sentences.

Again, I find this is overstated. George can be very predictable. People complain about the predictability of Jon becoming LC all the time, frex. Given the choice between unpredictability and good storytelling, George picks the latter every time. Unpredictability is not that high on his list.

This could be true except for three things. He takes Arthur Dayne's sword to her personally. Eddard is used as a reason she kills herself. And even the house servants at Winterfell think such a relationship happened.

Hmm... you interpret those to mean Ned still had feelings for Ashara. But there's always another explanation.

I agree with you, actually: but all those things show is that a) for whatever reason, Ned felt he had to return Dawn personally and people believe there was still something between the two of them. The truth of that latter remains open...

[Erryk the Reaver]

a couple things in defense of it being Ned.

First, the logic behind the idea that it couldn't be Ned based on the fact that tKotLT was small and Ned uses a greatsword doesn't make any sense. I assume the greatsword being referred to is Ice. Ice was made of Valyrian Steel; much lighter than "real" steel. a man as small as Ned could easily wield a greatsword of Valyrian steel. And Ice isn't the only weapon Ned uses. Shoot, he only has it when Theon brings it to him. When Jaime attacks him in KL, he draws a longsword.

Second, (I may be wrong here) but wasn't Ned the "Shy wolf", not the "quiet wolf?" Either way, Ned was considered by many to be a good commander. Ned even says himself that a good commander has to be able to be heard. I always assumed a "booming" voice would be just that kind of voice to be heard over the din of combat.

Thirdly, I'm pretty sure it's Ned. So there we go.

But I will admit, Mormont's got me thinking about a Lyanna possibility.

[Grant Dempsey]

Second, (I may be wrong here) but wasn't Ned the "Shy wolf", not the "quiet wolf?"

Ned was the "quiet wolf" in the story (although described as "shy" toward Ashara). Ben was the "pup". Brandon was the "wild wolf".

[Scuba Steve]

But Martin likes to be realistic in his approach to fantasy. Also, he doesn't like to be predictable . Really, the obvious choices are Lyanna and Howland, that's a subjective reason why I rule them out.

This line of thinking is actually helps lead me to the conclusion that the Knight of the Laughing Tree is either Lyanna or Howland. I think that Martin is hiding his/her identity in plain sight. But I could easily be wrong.

[Artanaro]

Doesn't it strike you as just a wee bit ... tactless for Meera and Jojen to expect Ned Stark to tell his young son a story about how his (according to your theory) disgruntled lover did in a tourney?

People keep interjecting their opinions into Ned's motive for not telling the story. You can say this also, wouldn't it be weird to tell about such a sad story (Lyanna running off with Rhaegar) if being the KotLT is what causes their lover's tryst? Anyone who knows Eddard knows he doesn't speak openly about depressing matters. Howland, if he was a good friend, knew this. Both sides can make up arguements for why Ned wouldn't talk. From our knowledge of Ned, there's no evidence he has ever discussed Lyanna and the events of the rebellion with his family. But then, why would he tell a story about her being the KotLT, if this is where Lyanna and Rhaegar's relationship began?

This arguement (about why would Eddard tell about Ashara) only works if you think Lyanna is the person. It's just backtracking in order to make a case.

In actuality, the only thing Meera's statement can support is that Ned is the KotLT. Lyanna and Ashara are sad topics with him, but Eddard being the the knight can be argued as a neutral topic (telling about his personal accomplishment). But this is still a limited supporting case.

I mean, for the story to be about Ashara Dayne Meera and Jojen would basically be saying, "Bran, you mean your father never told you the story about how the woman he boff'd one night won a tournament? I can't believe that your dad never told you and your brothers and sisters the story about how his illicit lover who he was cheating on your mother with beat up three knights?"

I love straw man arguements. But it comes down to this, if Ned would tell a story about a loved one, the same arguement applies to Ashara as it would with Lyanna. The fact people don't see the connection is because they're biased. Do you think it's weird that Edric Dayne has heard a great deal about Eddard, the person who killed his uncle and made his aunt commit suicide? If you see nothing wrong with that, than you can't say there's anything wrong with Meera thinking Bran should have heard the story.

Even if Ashara Dayne was NOT Ned's lover (and therefore not Jon's mother) it seems bizzare that Meera and Jojen would EXPECT Ned to have told his children a story about this far-away princess.

Just as bizaar as he would talk about a sister who would go on to be "raped" by Rhaegar, who supposedly falls in love with her because she is the KotLT. This is a much stronger case for Ned to not tell the story if Lyanna is the KotLT than your arguement is concerning Ashara.

I aslo think that regardless of R+L=J, Rhaegar HAS to somehow meet Lyanna. There is no evidence that Rhaegar was a senseless monster who would even be capable of rape or kidnapping.

As I keep saying, this is about reaching a decision and then adjusting facts to make it possible. Many people believe in R+L=J and therefore are choosing Lyanna to be the KotLT in order to support that case. You say they have to meet somehow, but they're both at Harrenhal throughout the tourney. That gives them ample amount of time to interact (and since I don't think they had loud speakers, Lyanna had to be pretty close to Rhaegar to here his song). Because you want another explanation of the events to be true, doesn't make it the case.

I want to reiterate something I said before. Lyanna could have been a bad lance. She could have been a poor fighter. However, as Selmy, Mormont, Jaime, Robert, Cersei, Cat, Ned, the Hound, and others have stated: fighting in a tourney is NOT the same as war. All of them state that sometimes the strangest things happen and a great fighter is taken out by a lesser fighter. A shield slips, a horse rears, a lucky blow lands when it shouldn't have. So, it is not beyond the realm of possibilities to suggest that Lyanna could have beatne these three lords.

Yes, but it is beyond the realm of probability, if she is untrained. Luck can be used in determine a victory of one knight over another. It's the fact the KotLT has to win three times in a row points toward the person having some idea what they're doing. Also, luck only distinguishes matters when there is a level of parity in the field. An untrained Lyanna will be easy fodder for any of the jousting knights. Barristan didn't win his first tourney. Jon Arryn's squire died his first time around. Ser Jorah Mormont is a bad example, because he is still a knight. He may not be the best jouster, but the difference between him and the best isn't as large as between Lyanna and the champions she'd have to face.

She is also smaller and a harder target to hit.

She's also weaker, while wearing armor made for a man. This would be an added disadvantage for her jousting.

It also tells us something we already could assume (through Arya): that Lyanna was a risk taker; that when she had her mind set on something, there was no taking her mind off of it, regardless of the dangers or possibility of failure. She had a cause, she believed in it, and she saw a wrong she thought needed righting. This is the fleshing out of a character.

This is rationalizing a choice. The fact she's saved Howland Reed has already shown us much about her. The fact she spills wine on top of Brandon's head shows that she's impulsive. Because the facts are already present for showing Lyanna's character, they do nothing to support her as KotLT.

And note the KotLT said "Teach your squires honor..." Seems like the "Stark" thing to say. Could still be Ben or Ned (though for other reasons, I think not) but....

Opinion. Edric Dayne refers to "the honor of his house." Many people share the same concepts of honor (that's probably why Ashara and Ned would connect so well).

If its Ashara Dayne, it would seem an odd choice as she had no connection to anyone. I noted that Ned COULD have asked her. But remember in the story- Ned is too shy to even ask her to DANCE! So, afterthey Dance Ned walks over to her and asks her to ... ride ddown three squires? Would she do it of her own accord? I cannot see how she would as she and Howland probably never met. Why would she care?

Let me get my story straight here. At no point do I say Ashara was asked by Ned. My understanding is she would take the initiative to be the KotLT to win Ned over. There is good evidence they had a relationship. That relationship must begin somewhere. Either Ned or Ashara as KotLT supports this plot developement. The problem we have is we don't know if Ashara already liked Ned at this point in the story.

I just think all the evidence (and its scant, I grant you) points inexplicably to Lyanna Stark.

Nahh, it points to Ashara or Eddard.

Sure, I said as much myself. But it[a booming voice] fits better for a girl.

Only if someone thinks it's a girl already.

GRRM is very realistic in his portrayal of character and human interaction, and he often tries to be in other ways too. But this is a fantasy novel: and people, in my experience, tend to overestimate how realistic it is.

There are fantastic elements all over the place, and I don't mean Melisandre and dragons and UnCat. People are larger than life: stunningly attractive, uncannily intelligent, freakishly strong, lightning quick, rapier-witted, proverbially wise, fearsomely skilled. And amazingly lucky. That most of all.

I think you need to make a distinction between exaggerated elements and unrealistic elements. People in ASOIAF are realistic in terms of obeying the laws of nature. There are people who are almost eight feet tall (are any the size of Gregor, not to my knowledge, but they could be). There are stunningly attractive people as well as ones who are uncannily intelligent. Are they as common as in ASOIAF, I agree, perhaps not. But that's still obeying the laws of realism. But Martin doesn't have Tyrion defeat Gregor on his own. He uses plausible situations that people can relate to. Anyways, this is a debatable point that deserves it's own thread.

Example: many readers have pointed out that the wildling arrows could not possibly have reached the top of a 700-foot wall (itself not a shining example of realism ). George thought they could. He was wrong. Did the arrows, therefore, not reach the top of the Wall? They can't have! It's impossible! Yet they did.

Again, there's the difference between exaggerated and impossible. To beat Michael Jordan in a game of basketball without ever playing before is impossible with all things being equal (if he got his legs broken, ok). To have arrows go a few hundred feet higher is just exaggeration. I agree he makes some characters extra lucky in their battle experiences (Sandor should have died a few times). But it's a realistic kind of luck. He doesn't have Lancel beat Gregor, he has Oberyn, a renowned killer.

So: what matters is whether George thinks Lyanna could have competed, and won. And what George thinks is realistic, or possible. That's why the argument from realism is always weak, IMO. It depends on assumptions about the author's knowledge and opinions, just as much as 'character' arguments do.

I disagree. We have a large quantity of text to determine Martin's opinions and beliefs in terms of writing. This provides us a large amount of material for which to judge whether he'd consider a situation just luck or impossible. Out of curiosity, name me a fight scene where George didn't take a realistic approach. He does so with Bronn at the Eyrie, Gregor and Oberyn, Sandor and Lord Beric (though he adds magical elements), Sam and the Other (Sam has to become the Slayer with a cheap shot). So if Lyanna is the KotLT, without training, it disagrees with everything else he's written.

Again, I find this is overstated. George can be very predictable. People complain about the predictability of Jon becoming LC all the time, frex. Given the choice between unpredictability and good storytelling, George picks the latter every time. Unpredictability is not that high on his list.

There is a difference between predictability and foreshadowing. An example of not being predictable is Joffrey being the one behind the assassin on Bran. In the future I may be able to use the examples of Ser Mandon Moore, and the KotLT , but Bran's hitman is the only one we know so far. In terms of whether Lyanna being the KotLT helps the story, I must disagree.

And just as a disclaimer. I'm the kind of person who debates/argues for the sake of debating/arguing. So consider that in case someone reads a tone into my writing that's not intended. (I could cover this post in smiley faces, but that would be gratuitous ).

Artanaro

[Lance_Work]

Hey Artanaro,

Could you bullet point your reasons for thinking its Ashara? In all of the huge posts I've kind of lost my way with your argument. I stated my reasons for believing it's Ned. Mormont stated his reason for thinking its Lyanna. Can you give us a rundown for Ashara?

Thanks!

[Grant Dempsey]

Let me get my story straight here. At no point do I say Ashara was asked by Ned. My understanding is she would take the initiative to be the KotLT to win Ned over. There is good evidence they had a relationship. That relationship must begin somewhere. Either Ned or Ashara as KotLT supports this plot developement. The problem we have is we don't know if Ashara already liked Ned at this point in the story.

Do you mean, "That relationship must begin somewhere," to stand as evidence in favor of the Knight of the Laughing Tree as Ashara, or simply as a fact which could fit with it if it were the case? If the latter, certainly, but, if the former, it seems contradictory to your point regarding the beginning of Lyanna and Rhaegar's relationship. We already know, in regard to the relationship, that Ned and Ashara expressed romantic interest in one another at Harrenhal, even before the Knight of the Laughing Tree's appearance, when they danced. That in itself should be as satisfying for the N+A relationship, if not more so (I would argue more so), than assuming the Knight of the Laughing Tree had no impact on the beginning of the R+L connection either.