Howland Reed = Knight of the Laughing Tree?

[Artanaro]

1. It wasn't Ned. Ned's not a jouster.

What's your evidence for this? Also, he need not be a great jouster to win. Ser Jorah Mormont won a tourney and he's no great knight. Ned need only get lucky or "be favored by the gods." I think the last is most likely.

2. You are joking, right?

Jousting is mainly horsebackriding (according to Jaime). If she practiced regularly, she'd could be quite good.

3. He was what, 10?

Actually, I think the estimates are about 13 or 14. Considering that Barristan and Jaime performed great feat of arms around the same age, or even younger in Barristan's case, it's not unheard of.

Now, let me say why it's not Rhaegar . (I'll give you the summary version since I don't have alot of time.)

1. His father orders him to find the knight. You have just accused him of lying to his father, without motive. If he wanted to scold the three knights, why can't he do it openly? Problem one.

2. This poorly explains Reed's comment about thinking Ned should have told them. If the story glorifies Rhaegar, bid deal. It's understandable that he wouldn't want to glorify the man who was cause for his sister's death. If it's not Rhaegar, Lyanna, Ashara, Benjen, and himself fit the case. Problem two.

3. Why would Lyanna ask Rhaegar, someone she barely knew to help Howland? If Rhaegar acts of his own volition, how did he hear about the encounter when he has no direct ties to the Stark camp. Problem 3.

Rhaegar makes no sense, but good luck rationalizing him. Cheerio. :cool:

Artanaro

Doesn't matter that I've become a convert, just thought I'd add my name to the lists.

Here's the summary arguement about why Lyanna is not the KotLT. For more detailed arguements, read the rest of this thread.

1. Rickard Stark refused to let Lyanna train with a sword. This rational applies to jousting as well.

2. Jousting is primarily a focus of horseback riding, but it's not simply transferable that a great rider is suddenly a great jouster. The person must practice with the lance and against other riders. Point one is evidence against this for Lyanna.

3. I really wonder how it feels for a girl to wear a man's armor, especially for the first time. If she hadn't trained in armor before, that's another reason she wouldn't be able to beat three champions. Ashara is Dornish, so that perhaps could explain that situation, but Lyanna doesn't have this advantage.

Artanaro

[Yakman]

3. Why would Lyanna ask Rhaegar, someone she barely knew to help Howland? If Rhaegar acts of his own volition, how did he hear about the encounter when he has no direct ties to the Stark camp.

Because he's the best jouster there. Because he's just defeated her brother. Because she thinks he could help her. Because he saw what happened and approached her about it. There's lots of reasons why Rhaegar might have helped.

I don't see why he couldn't have done it--if anyone could have done it, it's Rhaegar.

And remember, there has to be a reason for Lyanna to run off with him--if he'd never done anything to help her, then she'd have no reason to do that.

We can either have Lyanna as the Knight, in which case Rhaegar discovers her, she impresses him, and they fall in love, OR we can have her go to Rhaegar (impressing him with her tale of swordsmanship) and him help her, and they fall in love afterwards.

Because I can't see Lyanna doing the jousting, the second, to me, is far more likely.

[Tears of Lys]

3. I really wonder how it feels for a girl to wear a man's armor, especially for the first time. If she hadn't trained in armor before, that's another reason she wouldn't be able to beat three champions. Ashara is Dornish, so that perhaps could explain that situation, but Lyanna doesn't have this advantage.

Artanaro

I wish I could try on some armor to see how it feels! (and then I could let you know too )

But just the fact that Rickard forbid her to train in the yards doesn't mean she didn't have any experience doing it. Any girl could tell you that Perhaps not the professional-type training by masters of the art, but with three brothers, you can bet she got some practice in.

And were they "champions" that she jousted against?

Again, my opinion is neither here nor there, but if we were keeping score, I just wanted it known where I stand (or sit ahorse.

[Yakman]

And were they "champions" that she jousted against?

They were veteran knights.

[DanteGabriel]

1. Rickard Stark refused to let Lyanna train with a sword. This rational applies to jousting as well.

What's the exact wording of the passage about Lyanna and swords? I thought it was that she was forbidden to wear one (if we're talking about the scene where Ned discovers Arya holding Needle), but I don't think it said she'd been forbidden to train with a sword. If that's the case, then she could easily have spent time training with the quintain.

[CelticBrennus]

I still like my old theory that it was one of the Children from the Isle of Faces, come in response to Howland's prayer.

[Artanaro]

Hmm, in reading over this thread, I realized I never responded to a few of Mormont's posts. I need to correct that later.

Because he's the best jouster there.

The best don't always win. Jaime says how much luck and chance play parts in this. And just because he won that tourney doesn't make Rhaegar the best. Name me another tourney he won.

Because he's just defeated her brother. Because she thinks he could help her. Because he saw what happened and approached her about it. There's lots of reasons why Rhaegar might have helped.

There is no evidence that he saw (and in fact, evidence against). If he saw the encounter, he basicly did nothing which contradicts everything we know about Rhaegar's character. Also, the only reason he may have helped is to win Lyanna, but this doesn't explain why she told him. Howland Reed was shamed by the incident, so unless she has very little tact (which is possible) she won't be discussing the matter with people outside her camp.

I don't see why he couldn't have done it--if anyone could have done it, it's Rhaegar.

The circumstances go against this. Rhaegar perhaps had the means (but it doesn't explain the armor the knight was wearing), but not the opportunity or sufficient motive. Also, if he already had a strong enough relationship with Lyanna that she would turn to him for help, he wouldn't need to win her heart by crowning her the Queen of Love and Beauty. That act loses meaning if he is the knight.

And remember, there has to be a reason for Lyanna to run off with him--if he'd never done anything to help her, then she'd have no reason to do that.

Crowning her was a very big deal. Also, he's a singer and already made her cry. All this is explained without him being the knight.

We can either have Lyanna as the Knight, in which case Rhaegar discovers her, she impresses him, and they fall in love, OR we can have her go to Rhaegar (impressing him with her tale of swordsmanship) and him help her, and they fall in love afterwards.

This is a dichotomy that has little bearing on the circumstances. Making Lyanna cry with the song and crowning her are more than enough to explain what happens later.

I wish I could try on some armor to see how it feels! (and then I could let you know too )

I would love to hear about it. *takes moments to lapse in dirty nerdy fantasy*

But just the fact that Rickard forbid her to train in the yards doesn't mean she didn't have any experience doing it. Any girl could tell you that. Perhaps not the professional-type training by masters of the art, but with three brothers, you can bet she got some practice in.

I agree, except for one thing. Ned doesn't believe she trained (I'll post the quote at the end of this reply) meaning she would have had to hide it from him also, but there's no motive for doing so. I'd like to supply the quote, but I gave my last copy of AGOT away. If anyone could give the quote in Ned's conversation with Arya about Lyanna, it would be most appreciated.

They were veteran knights.

Correction. At the time the KotLT fights them, they are the current champions at the tourney. Whether a champion must actually survive until the end, to be considered one, is left to debate.

What's the exact wording of the passage about Lyanna and swords? I thought it was that she was forbidden to wear one (if we're talking about the scene where Ned discovers Arya holding Needle), but I don't think it said she'd been forbidden to train with a sword. If that's the case, then she could easily have spent time training with the quintain.

There's a big difference between practicing with quintains and jousting a battle hardy knight. That's the problem. The level of training required to beat her opponents dictate that the person had a good amount of formal training (unless you choose magic as the option, see Greenmen).

Artanaro

[Ser Fenris]

I do find there are problems with the choices being either Ned or Benjen. First, saying their motivation was simply for honour's sake seems too easy. Second, if Benjen or Ned is the person, there is no reason to hide their identity. I really think the person is either Lyanna or Ashara Dayne. The motive for concealing their identity is the most understandable in these cases.

And so I give the wave to Ashara Dayne, because though Lyanna may have been a good horsemen and done some practice with a lance, to defeat three champions would require a much more significant amount of skill. You don't defeat three of the best lances by getting lucky. And being a northerner would also put Lyanna at a disadvantage in a tourney, so I have to go with Ashara. She is a dornish woman after all, and in their society, there is no problem with a woman wielding a sword (or lance).

And her motive would be more than simply wanting to avenge Howland Reed for honour sake. Defeating the knights could win the heart of Ned. So I vote Ashara Dayne.

Artanaro

Again if it was ashara I doubt that Howlands kids would have told the story, that means it was Lyanna or Eddard as Bran was already man sized while eddard was still a squire.

Well

Yes Eddard uses a greatsword in combat but he could very easily have been smaller at harenhall, remember the rebellion was not a one day thing! I grew 4 inches and gained 60 pounds in a year and half between gr 10 and 11 I was 15 (how old was edddard?) so yes he could have grown a lot in a short time.

either way I weas sure at first that it was eddard(why else would the reeds have told the story? Bran never knew his aunt she died long before he was born) but there is a solid case for Lyanna, a weak case for Ashara and no case for anyone else other than perhaps Howland.

[oba]

Again if it was ashara I doubt that Howlands kids would have told the story, that means it was Lyanna or Eddard as Bran was already man sized while eddard was still a squire.

Yes Eddard uses a greatsword in combat but he could very easily have been smaller at harenhall, remember the rebellion was not a one day thing! I grew 4 inches and gained 60 pounds in a year and half between gr 10 and 11 I was 15 (how old was edddard?) so yes he could have grown a lot in a short time.

FWIW, the physical description we get of the KoLT was that the person was "small of stature." Very ambiguous, but I think it rules out Ned and Rhaegar.

1. Ned was 18 at the time of the tourney. He thinks this to himself in his last chapter in AGoT. Yes, he might have had a growth spurt during the war, but it's never remarked on by anyone.

2. Rhaegar. He's never thought of as being short of stature. In Dany's vision in the House of the Undying she at first mistakes Rhaegar for Viserys until she realizes that the man she sees not only has indigo instead of lilac eyes but is "taller".

My money's on Lyanna.

[Yakman]

hmmm... so stature removes Rhaegar.

So Lyanna is the front-runner. But how...

[back_packn]

hmmm... so stature removes Rhaegar.

So Lyanna is the front-runner. But how...

Favored by the gods? Because she was in the right? Who knows... but that's part of why the KotLT is even a story worth telling!

[Jaime Martell]

So Lyanna is the front-runner. But how...

haven't we done this song and dance, like 4 or 5 times, on this thread??

-She could have been trained in secret by the Stark boys

-Tomboy

-right sizee

-motive to burn

-experienced rider

-etc. etc. etc.

[Artanaro]

-She could have been trained in secret by the Stark boys

Can't someone just get their AGOT book out and copy the quote. This isn't true! Eddard would know if Brandon was giving her lessons, but he acts as if Rickard's refusal was enough to prevent her. This is undeniable evidence against Lyanna being the KotLT.

Artanaro

[Itkovian]

As for why they would have told the story, it is possibly due to it being the origins of R+L, of why R named L queen of love and beauty, and made off with her afterwards (however that happenned).

Indeed, if that is the case it is the single most pivotal moment in recent history. In fact regardless of the "=J" part, if R+L is true then it is also the most important for the Stark family in general.

It is, in fact, quite a wonder he never heard it before.

Itkovian

[oba]

Can't someone just get their AGOT book out and copy the quote. This isn't true! Eddard would know if Brandon was giving her lessons, but he acts as if Rickard's refusal was enough to prevent her. This is undeniable evidence against Lyanna being the KotLT.

Artanaro

"Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it." AGOT, US PB, p. 221.

There's the quote. I don't agree that it's undeniable evidence against anything.

There's no mention of lessons given or not given by Brandon, Eddard, or anyone else.

Meera also states in ASoS that Lyanna used a tourney sword to scatter the squires.

[back_packn]

Can't someone just get their AGOT book out and copy the quote. This isn't true! Eddard would know if Brandon was giving her lessons, but he acts as if Rickard's refusal was enough to prevent her. This is undeniable evidence against Lyanna being the KotLT.

Actually the quote is the she might have carried a sword if their father would have allowed it. This is hardly proof that she had no training. Besides, the way she lit into the squires with a sword seems to indicate she knew how to handle one.

EDIT: Dang... beat the the punch... good points oba!

[Errant Bard]

Eddard would know if Brandon was giving her lessons, but he acts as if Rickard's refusal was enough to prevent her. This is undeniable evidence against Lyanna being the KotLT.

It is actually quite deniable, here is the quote (p221 to 223 of Bantam paperback):

"Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. 'the wolf blood,' my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave." Arya heard a sadness in his voice; he did not often speak of his father, or of the brother and sister who had died before she was born. "Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like ther."

[...]

"This willfulness of yours, the running off, the angry words, the disobedience..."

[...]

"If I took it away, no doubt I'd find a morningstar hidden under your pillow within the fortnight."

Now, Eddard does say Rickard would not have allowed Lyanna to carry a sword, but he also says that Arya reminds him of her, with her wildness and disobedience, even ending the discussion saying he could forbid the sword only to find a morningstar instead.

To me this just means that Lyanna never carried a sword openly, but nevertheless, having this "wolf blood" might have gone ahead with training regardless of orders, even if it meant training with a morningstar instead.

Edit: damn, too slow (x2)

[Rockroi]

Eddard would know if Brandon was giving her lessons,

Like...when he was being fostered in the Vale? Seriously? Was it Brandon's Web cam that clued him into this?

Here are my CRIB NOTES as to why I think its Lyanna. For a more indepth look, please read my more decriptive points on this in my earleir explinations on this thread.

-The Reed children seem perplexed that Bran does not know the story of the KotLT. If it were Ashara Dayne it seems odd that the Dayne children would think this lack of knowledge would be odd;

-Lyanna was willful, prideful, honorable, tough, and decent (at least from what we know from tangential characters, including Ned and Arya). She was also a risk taker (Ned) who seems the type who would do an act such as the KotLT;

-The rider in the passage is described as slight, in ill-fitting armor. Smaller people make smaller targets in a joust. Finally, the rider does not take off his/her helm indicating he/she did not want to be identified. The slight part leaves, really, only Dayne, Lyanna, and Howland Reed. Ned and Brandon were not slight and would have NO reason to hide their identity;

-This is an “if-after-this-than-therefore-because-of-it†argument BUT (big, big BUT), if Rhaegar has to “fall in love with Lyanna (big, big IF), than he needs an opportunity to actually meet her. The Starks do not go to Court; Rheagar did not go to the North; the Starks do not attend tournies (often). The tourney at Harrenhal seems to be the perfect opportunity. Well, how did they meet? Very little evidence suggests that they ever had an overt opportunity to do so. However, RHEAGAR is sent by Aerys to find the KotLT who “is no friend of mine.†Rheagar is dispatched; he returns CLAIMING he never found the KotLT. Well, what my theory “presupposes is, maybe he didn’t!†(Thank you Owen Wilson and the Royal Tenenbaums) Maybe Rheagar found who he was looking for. I think this is PLAUSIBLE (read: does not mean it happened).

-If you support R+L=J and that R did not RAPE L than it seems HIGHLY PROBABLE that this is the time R+L first fell for one another. They seem to need an opportunity. As I said before, if only there was some way that Lyanna could have disguised herself…hmmm….

-On combat. Tournaments are OVERWHELMING described as unsure, tricky and almost random events. This is NOT to say that skill is not involved; merely to identify that strange things happen (like Selmy being NINE at his first tourney). To have a woman unhorse three lords seems plausible (but not Probable, I grant you). Again- seems like something that would take a lot of guts.

-On training. There is no evidence that Ashara Dayne ever trained with a lance or ever had any formal combat training. The evidence used is very scant (other Dorne women were so trained, its presumed). Further, although there is no evidence that Lyanna never “formally†trained, we know FOR A FACT that she used a tourney sword to scatter three squires. We know she could ride a horse. There is no evidence that contradicts that Lyanna could have trained in private away from prying eyes. The mere fact that Ned never “noticed†anything is not compelling: Ned did not notice that his daughter was telling tales to Cersei.

Breakdown of candidates:

In order to be the KotLT the character would need to be:

-present at Harrenhal;

-Old enough to sit a horse and ride with a lance (eliminates Benjen)

-Be small of build enough that their small stature is noticeable (eliminates Ned and Brandon);

-Someone who would have some reason to hide their identity (re-eliminates the Stark boys);

-Someone who interacted with Howland Reed (eliminates Ashara Dayne, Robert Baratheon, etc etc etc);

At the END of all this we come BACK to the beginning. There is something STRANGE going on when the Reeds tell Bran the story; Reed children cannot FATHOM why Bran does not KNOW the story already (they ask him twice if he is SURE he does not know the story). If the Reed children are telling Bran a story about Lyanna, this makes sense; it seems out of place that they would expect Bran to know a story about Ashara Dayne a woman he has no connection to at all.

One could argue that the character is Howland Reed. This is plausible, but it does not explain why the Reed kids find it odd that Bran has not heard the story; Reed has never even met Bran so why would it be EXPECTED that he would know a story about him?

All signs (scant as they may be) point away from all other characters and keep coming back to Lyanna Stark.

[Ser Greguh]

I even take that quote as saying that Lyanna probably DID have some training at swordplay, even if it was informal (most likely Brandon's work). After all, why would Lyanna have wanted to carry a sword if she had never held one?

It strikes me as borderline lunacy to suggest that there's no way that Lyanna could have unhorsed three knights. Sure she was small, but so what? Didn't you read the part about Loras unhorsing the freaking Mountain that Rides? She was an accomplished rider, and we even have Jaime commenting that jousting is mostly horsemanship anyway.

Remember how Barristan describes how tiny things can sway the outcome of a jousting match, making the remark pointedly to Jorah, no great horseman or jouster himself, who, motivated by a favor around his arm, won an entire tournament. Numerous references are made throughout the series that being motivated to win is the greatest path to victory in a tourney.

If Lyanna was the KotLT, she was doubly motivated: to impress Rhaegar, and to defend her brother's new best friend. To suggest that she couldn't have possibly unhorsed three mediocre knights is just inane.

[lee1026]

I even take that quote as saying that Lyanna probably DID have some training at swordplay, even if it was informal (most likely Brandon's work). After all, why would Lyanna have wanted to carry a sword if she had never held one?

Why did arya want to carry a sword if she had never held one?