Howland Reed = Knight of the Laughing Tree?

[Grumpygoat]

Mormont's given the best analysis so far but, just a few minor points:

Howland does, indeed, have reason to hide his identity. He admits that he doesn't know how to joust or ride well, yet he has a lot of pride, and no wish to make an embarrassment of himself or his House. Were he to participate, he'd likely hide his identity.

Then we have Ashara.

First off, we have vague, periphereal evidence of her being able to fight due to being Dornish. That's not really much to go off of.

Furthermore, what purpose does she have to leap to Howlands defense? Next to none. Everything we're shown makes it seem Ashara just met the Starks and, even then, only danced with one. Among many others at the time. There's the blossoming of love there, but it's almost entirely on Eddard's side. Ashara does not know the Starks, Ashara does not know their gods, and Ashara doesn't know Howland Reed, either.

For that matter, none of the Starks know Ashara by all accounts. Eddard's simply enchanted with her. They had no reason to divulge what happened to Howland - it's embarrassing, and they've no clue how Ashara may have reacted.

Ashara also shows no particular signs of recklessness, outside of a suicide that may or may not have happened. For circumstances that are arguably as understandable as they get for killing yourself.

Lyanna, on the other hand, has heaps of motivation. She would have carried a sword of Lord Rickard allowed her to - and, lo and behold, she casually carries around a tourney sword when he's not about.

Lyanna is shown as wild, reckless, and prone to, say, dump a cup of wine on a brothers head, lay into three squires, or potentially enter a tournament despite all common sense...

And here's the kicker: Lyanna being the Knight of the Laughing Tree makes her out to be something special. I'm sure that Rhaegar saw all sorts of lovely, beautiful women. The sort to catch the eye and entrance. To bedevil. Many of whom he could have had.

Rhaegar doesn't come across as the sort to fall for that sort of thing, not in favor of his wife, not in favor of his entire kingdom. And being a Stark on its own doesn't seem enough, either.

But Lyanna being the Knight of the Laughing Tree? That sets her apart from almost all other women. Her motivation for doing it sets her apart from most. It marks her as something remarkable. Someone strong, as well - which is at least partly why Rhaegar's believed to have sought her out, due to Elia's frail health.

Mormont really put it best. Lyanna has the best motivation, the best chance for pure skill, and it ties into why Rhaegar chose her all too well.

And anyone other than Howland Reed (and maybe Benjen) has only a flimsy case at best.

[Yakman]

Just re-reading that bit last night, and I came to the conclusion that Rh = KotLT

[Tears of Lys]

Chalk up another convert for the "Lyanna=KotLT" theory.

I thought it was Howland Reed, but thinking about that last post of Grumpygoat's has convinced me. (Didn't go back to old thread and sort through everything.)

Now, who's "Rh?"

[Yakman]

Chalk up another convert for the "Lyanna=KotLT" theory.

I thought it was Howland Reed, but thinking about that last post of Grumpygoat's has convinced me. (Didn't go back to old thread and sort through everything.)

Now, who's "Rh?"

Rhaegar. I don't think Lyanna would be able to defeat three experienced knights in a joust--remember it's not the squires that are beaten, it's the knights themselves.

While she could beat up the squires, she's not going to beat the knights.

[DanteGabriel]

Rhaegar. I don't think Lyanna would be able to defeat three experienced knights in a joust--remember it's not the squires that are beaten, it's the knights themselves.

While she could beat up the squires, she's not going to beat the knights.

I don't think it's any more implausible that Lyanna unhorsed three knights than it is for the untrained and undersized Howland Reed to have done so. One of the keys to good jousting is good horsemanship, and Lyanna could certainly have been an excellent rider, while Howland probably wasn't much of a rider.

Forgive me, I haven't gone back to reread the rest of this thread, so I am probably just repeating earlier points. Suffice it to say that I do believe Lyanna was the KotLT.

[Yakman]

I don't think it's any more implausible that Lyanna unhorsed three knights than it is for the untrained and undersized Howland Reed to have done so. One of the keys to good jousting is good horsemanship, and Lyanna could certainly have been an excellent rider, while Howland probably wasn't much of a rider.

Forgive me, I haven't gone back to reread the rest of this thread, so I am probably just repeating earlier points. Suffice it to say that I do believe Lyanna was the KotLT.

This is why i don't think that Howland was the KotLT either.

I think that Lyanna went to Rhaegar and asked him to joust as an anonymous knight... and that's how they met.

[DanteGabriel]

This is why i don't think that Howland was the KotLT either.

I think that Lyanna went to Rhaegar and asked him to joust as an anonymous knight... and that's how they met.

Hrm. But why would Lyanna have gone to Rhaegar to chastise the knights and their squires? Why couldn't she have gotten Brandon to dress up as a mystery knight and unhorse those knights? Why did the story include Benjen's offer to scrounge up some armor, if someone in the Starks' party weren't going to need an anonymous suit of armor? There's no reason to think that Lyanna had caught Rhaegar's attention before the tourney. The idea that Lyanna took up Benjen's offer to find armor, chastised the knights on Howland's behalf, and that Rhaegar found out about her identity and was impressed enough to name her Queen of Love and Beauty at the end of the tourney fits nicely together to me. Maybe others think it fits too neatly, but I still like the Lyanna theory.

[Yakman]

Hrm. But why would Lyanna have gone to Rhaegar to chastise the knights and their squires? Why couldn't she have gotten Brandon to dress up as a mystery knight and unhorse those knights?

Because Brandon got beat by Rhaegar.

Why did the story include Benjen's offer to scrounge up some armor, if someone in the Starks' party weren't going to need an anonymous suit of armor? There's no reason to think that Lyanna had caught Rhaegar's attention before the tourney. The idea that Lyanna took up Benjen's offer to find armor, chastised the knights on Howland's behalf, and that Rhaegar found out about her identity and was impressed enough to name her Queen of Love and Beauty at the end of the tourney fits nicely together to me. Maybe others think it fits too neatly, but I still like the Lyanna theory.

The theory is nice, but a woman (unless it's Brienne) is not going to unhorse three knights. It just ain't gonna happen.

In the story, it's likely that Lyanna is the KotLT, but I'm sticking with Rhaegar just for the believability issue.

[DanteGabriel]

The theory is nice, but a woman (unless it's Brienne) is not going to unhorse three knights. It just ain't gonna happen.

Who knows, the three knights who needed to be chastised may have been really crappy jousters. That's why their squires were such dicks -- they were so ashamed of their incompetent masters that they took out their frustrations on an innocent crannogman.

In all seriousness, fair enough on the believability issue. I just hope we get to learn more about Howland and Lyanna in the rest of the series.

[Yakman]

In all seriousness, fair enough on the believability issue. I just hope we get to learn more about Howland and Lyanna in the rest of the series.

I hope so as well.

I also think it's telling as to why Lyanna ditched Robert for Rhaegar--Robert (the Stormlord) was among those who swore to humiliate the Knight of the Laughing Tree.

[Summer]

Also, note, how nobody is surprised at Alleras's voice and how readily she is accepted as a male.

Alleras?

Since when is he a she?

[Jaime Martell]

Alleras?

Since when is he a she?

Its a dude, leave it at that. But hey, since when is he a candidate?

[Bormon]

I still hold that it was Howland, using the abilities taught him by the CotF. Howland was a member of the group of men that went to the ToJ, so we know that at least eventually he gained the ability to fight.

I did have one extreme crackpot theory, the the KotLT was actually Jamie returning to the tourney after going half way to KL. Hiding himself because he was ordered away. Still young and chivalrous, he noticed the squires and Howland, and used that as an excuse to enter the lists.

[Paul H]

Lyanna makes the most sense with the evidence given, especially with how things ended up.

The sphinx is the riddle.

[Errant Bard]

Alleras?

Since when is he a she?

Sarella. Since people started to wonder if a cigar was really a cigar, I guess

[Artanaro]

I also think it's telling as to why Lyanna ditched Robert for Rhaegar--Robert (the Stormlord) was among those who swore to humiliate the Knight of the Laughing Tree.

I think Lyanna was pretty clear about why she ditched Robert for Rhaegar. He was a total slut. What girl finds that attractive, except for the insecure homely type.

Lyanna makes the most sense with the evidence given, especially with how things ended up.

No, she makes the least sense. People, people, *shakes head in disparaging manner* Address the many arguements against her in the thread before making such comments. It makes so little sense, I can't see why anyone hold out. Really, here's how I see it, there are 3 candidates.

1. Ned (who I believe is the one)

2. Ashara (unknown, but no evidence against, and with motive)

3. Benjen (unknown, but no evidence against, and with motive)

Artanaro

[back_packn]

Really, here's how I see it, there are 3 candidates.

1. Ned (who I believe is the one)

2. Ashara (unknown, but no evidence against, and with motive)

3. Benjen (unknown, but no evidence against, and with motive)

In that case, I say it's Hot Pie's father: Absolutely no evidence for, but no evidence against either. Come on people! Use your brains! This is the only logical answer!

Edit:

On second thought, it was Hot Pie's mother. Then afterwords, when Rhaegar went looking for the KotLT, he knocked her up, and hense we get Hot Pie Targaryen.

[Artanaro]

In that case, I say it's Hot Pie's father

Ahh, but where's your motive and opportunity?

Artanaro

[Yakman]

1. Ned (who I believe is the one)

2. Ashara (unknown, but no evidence against, and with motive)

3. Benjen (unknown, but no evidence against, and with motive)

1. It wasn't Ned. Ned's not a jouster.

2. You are joking, right?

3. He was what, 10?

[Tears of Lys]

Well, the KotLT could be anyone, true, but just the fact Lyanna's a woman wouldn't necessarily mean she couldn't unhorse three knights. Remember, these were not renowned knights, not by anything we've been told. We know she was an excellent horsewoman, as evidenced by the comments Harwin (?) I think, makes to Arya when she leads everyone on a mad chase when she's trying to escape from the BwB, comparing her to Lyanna.

Loras, who's slightly built, has made quite a name for himself as a jouster. His brother Garlan is the better sword - something that would definitely require upper body strength. I'm not a jouster, but I'd imagine if you get the proper leverage, someone not very big and burly could unhorse a larger opponent.

And why would Rhaegar "chastise" some knights from podunk while he was in disguise?? I suppose Benjen could have done it, he was young enough to have to do it incognito. But that doesn't really answer why Rhaegar picks Lyanna out of the crowd. This theory beautifully ties things together.

Doesn't matter that I've become a convert, just thought I'd add my name to the lists.