iheartseverus Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 "My father has little enough time remaining him. So long as your grandfather lives, my place is at Riverrun with him." So says Catelyn Stark to Robb in CoK when Robb is preparing to battle Tywin's forces and wants to send his mother to safety. errrrmmm, Lady Stark, hello? This whole aspect of the series drives me crazy--Catelyn drives me crazy. She has two little boys virtually abandoned at Winterfell: one nearly fatally broken in body and falling into despair in his mind, the other (a toddler!) spiraling toward psychosis because of rage and fear that he has been abandoned by everyone he loved and trusted. Most of Winterfell's able-bodied men are off to war with Robb, Old Maester Luwin is the only adult-figure left in those little boys' lives. Yet, their mom feels that her place is with her father at Riverrun [i]so long as he lives[/i]. Of course Catelyn loves her father, but compare Lord Hoster's need of her (he's bedridden, wandering in his mind, floating toward death in a poppy-induced haze) to the stark (you should excuse the pun) need of her little boys, virtually alone up there at Winterfell. And what does Catelyn [i]do[/i] at Riverrun? What does she accomplish there? She glooms. She glooms around the castle, glooming at every decision Edmure makes, glooming about her father's health, glooming at all the good news coming in about Robb's victories (because after all, victory today doesn't mean victory tomorrow), glooming because Lysa won't come and visit, glooming over her happy childhood days that are no more, glooming about her daughters being held by the Lannisters. But not, apparently, glooming over her two little boys up there at Winterfell, each in such desperate need of her, of [i]someone[/i]. Even Robb, when he wants his mother out of Riverrun, whether for her own safety as he claims, or just to get her out of his hair, suggests that she go to The Twins, sit things out with the Freys and help him decide which of the Frey females he should take as bride. I love the Starks, but they drive me starkers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Lion of Castamere Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Well its good she didn't go back to Winterfell, because then Theon would have come and then Catelyn would have been kil...oh wait, she died anyway. Yeah that bitch should have gone back and taken care of her kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mongrel Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 That's very unfair. If I was her, I'd be more concerned about the situation in the south than the north too, with her daughters and all. And she does take action. She frees Jaime, and gives sensible advice to Edmure. Plus, strictly speaking, after Ned grew shorter and Robb got married, Catelyn isn't "the" Lady Stark anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Sun Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Lady Stark or not, Catelyn as a character is more than just Ned Stark's wife/widdow and the mother of her children. I really love that she wanted to stay with her dying father, because it makes her portrayal realistic compared to being stereotyped simply as "mom". Regarding her duty to Bran and Rickon, I think she only failed them when you consider her as modern "mom". In pre-modern societies, especially in her social class, parents and children were not as close as we know it today. There is a reason why the children in that time had a closer connection to their nurses or tutors than to their parents. So, Catelyn thought that Rickon and Bran were safe and in good hands, while her other children and her father needed her more. So, while I think that it might have been better for Rickon that she returned home, I don't agree that it was her only duty: even though she changed houses, her father was her duty as well, and she always had a close connection to him, Arya and Sansa were her duty, and she thought it would be better to be close to them, and advicing Robb was her duty, because he needed advisors. That GRRM wrote Catelyn as the narrative punching ball is not an inherent fault of the character, her decisions at the given times may at times be problematic, but they always make sense from her perspective with the information she has in her hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raine Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 I think she should have gone back to Winterfell after she heard about the death of Bran and Rickon. If I were a mother, I wouldn't believe the news and wanted to see it through my own eyes. So, she wouldn't be at the Twins, when the Red Wedding took place. Aww, she was such a good character.. I'm still shocked, she had to die. :stunned: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruella_Da_Oz Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 I think it was more that Cat considered her younger kids to be in relative safety, as opposed to other family members (she was wrong, but so was Robb), and most importantly, she knew that if Robb fails, her younger kids are screwed as well. She stayed with Robb not just for Robb, but for them as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blackfish Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 It's very unfair to say her boys were abandoned. They had a whole castle of people to look after them, and their biggest threat came when Robb [i]didn't[/i] listen to her. She tells Robb that all their hopes are pinned on him, so yes, he did need more help, and he would've benefited from listening to her more than he did. The reason he wants her gone is because it makes him look bad, but that's an unfair attitude toward her (and female authority) in the first place. Catelyn's inability to accomplish anything at Riverrun is, also, not her choice. I feel like people always try to defend the idea that Catelyn should have bought into her society's attitude that being a mother means your authority is threatening. This is kind of alarming to me. ETA: I also agree with Red Sun about the mom stereotype thing. I also think that we're given hints that Catelyn is [i]more[/i] hands-on than most medieval noble mothers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Horse With No Name Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 IMO, Catelyn's change in attitude is pretty weird. At the beginning of AGOT she doesn't want Bran to leave with Ned, and she's really upset at the prospect of losing three of her children. Then, in ACOK, she doesn't want to leave her dying father (and he's a long time dying ) and head to Winterfell to the 2 only children who really need her at the moment. Robb probably would have needed her advice, too (he wouldn't have married the Westerling girl if Catelyn had been around) but he didn't want her to go west with him. What kind of mother leaves her children, one crippled and the other not much more than a toddler, alone for more than a year? Honestly, in reality what kind of mother would do that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote name='Asator' post='1656591' date='Jan 21 2009, 12.03']IMO, Catelyn's change in attitude is pretty weird. At the beginning of AGOT she doesn't want Bran to leave with Ned, and she's really upset at the prospect of losing three of her children. Then, in ACOK, she doesn't want to leave her dying father (and he's a long time dying ) and head to Winterfell to the 2 only children who really need her at the moment.[/quote] In fact, they're the only two who [i]don't[/i] need her at that time. As has been previously pointed out, they're far from danger and have many trusted caregivers, protectors and advisors. Robb has no advisors that he can really trust, Arya is lost and Sansa is a hostage. The plight of the two girls is not at the top of anyone else's priority list: Cat is the only one fighting for their interests. [quote]What kind of mother leaves her children, one crippled and the other not much more than a toddler, alone for more than a year? Honestly, in reality what kind of mother would do that?[/quote] One who felt she had no other choice. The use of question-begging emotive language doesn't strengthen your argument: I mean, what kind of mother leaves her adolescent son without sorely-needed advice, at the mercy of the likes of Roose Bolton and Rickard Karstark? What kind of mother abandons her lost daughters and runs off to safety? What kind of daughter makes no attempt to visit her dying father, when she hasn't seen him for years? etc. The basic issue is that Cat is forced (not for the first or last time) into a very difficult choice. She has to decide which of her children need her more. As a parent, I can tell you that's about the worst thing that can happen. And in Westeros, things are even worse - travel times and communication problems mean that the choice is inevitably a long-term commitment. But she has to make it just the same. I do think there is something about the idea that she should automatically have chosen the younger children because they 'needed her more' that indicates more about our modern prejudices than about Cat's choice. Cat is a mother and bringing up young children is her main job, is our cultural assumption. It's not that she shouldn't have involved herself in running a war at all (well, not for most people): it's that her top priority should be the emotional welfare of the younger kids. This is, as Red Sun points out, a pretty anachronistic view - and to me, one underlaid with some dubious perspectives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General_Lee Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 I think Severus' got the truth of it. Catelyn married a Stark, so now she is one and all her duty belongs to Winterfell. Her father is dying, so what? Children are made to outlive their parents! Thats the way things are! Lord Hoster was said to be a brave and noble man. Surely he wouldn't have wanted that his daughter wasted time on his dying bed while her children needed her in Winterfell. But that's apparently a part of Catelyns change in character. Once she's been back to Riverrun she forgets about Winterfell and falls kind of back into her childhood and suddenly a long suppressed longing for home takes her over. That's what I think is the reason for Cat's (annoying) behaviour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shewoman Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Marrying into another family doesn't mean that your birth family no longer matters to you. Having to choose between children who need you and a dying parent is a horrible situation to be in. Catelyn comes in for a lot of hate on this board and I think whatever choice she made, there are those who would condemn her for it. If she had let her father die without seeing him, someone here would have jumped on her about that. And it is part of her job to stand up for Tully rights at Winterfell; remember that their marriage sealed an alliance against Aerys that guaranteed--if things had gone differently--a Stark/Tully heir at Winterfell. The thing is, the culture Martin has shown us is not particularly sentimental about children. Lords and Ladies may marry for love--although Catelyn and Ned didn't marry for that reason--but their main duty is the furtherance of their Houses. The Septas, Old Nan, and various men-at-arms are the ones who raised the Stark children and no one thinks that odd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-ahrairah Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Maybe in the short term she should have returned to Winterfell, but in the end it would give the Greyjoys an extremely valuable hostage, and prevent Bran & Co.'s escape. With hindsight she should have gone to Seagard as Robb wished, escape the RW, and rally the Stark cause with Brynden Blackfish. A bit off-topic: Last names of married women baffle me. Catelyn is sometimes called "Tully" and sometimes "Stark", Cersei is never called "Baratheon", and Jeyne is always "Westerling". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Horse With No Name Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote name='mormont' post='1656600' date='Jan 21 2009, 13.24']In fact, they're the only two who [i]don't[/i] need her at that time. As has been previously pointed out, they're far from danger and have many trusted caregivers, protectors and advisors. Robb has no advisors that he can really trust, Arya is lost and Sansa is a hostage. The plight of the two girls is not at the top of anyone else's priority list: Cat is the only one fighting for their interests. One who felt she had no other choice. The use of question-begging emotive language doesn't strengthen your argument: I mean, what kind of mother leaves her adolescent son without sorely-needed advice, at the mercy of the likes of Roose Bolton and Rickard Karstark? What kind of mother abandons her lost daughters and runs off to safety? What kind of daughter makes no attempt to visit her dying father, when she hasn't seen him for years? etc. The basic issue is that Cat is forced (not for the first or last time) into a very difficult choice. She has to decide which of her children need her more. As a parent, I can tell you that's about the worst thing that can happen. And in Westeros, things are even worse - travel times and communication problems mean that the choice is inevitably a long-term commitment. But she has to make it just the same. I do think there is something about the idea that she should automatically have chosen the younger children because they 'needed her more' that indicates more about our modern prejudices than about Cat's choice. Cat is a mother and bringing up young children is her main job, is our cultural assumption. It's not that she shouldn't have involved herself in running a war at all (well, not for most people): it's that her top priority should be the emotional welfare of the younger kids. This is, as Red Sun points out, a pretty anachronistic view - and to me, one underlaid with some dubious perspectives.[/quote] I mentioned that Robb also needed her advice, would she have gone with him that would have been understandable. In Riverrun she could accomplish nothing, as Edmure didn't listen to her advice and she couldn't really do anything to save Sansa and Arya. That leaves Cat sitting beside Hoster's bed and waiting for him to die. Her duty would have been to return north and govern the north. And to care for her two younger sons who lost their father and who's brother has gone to war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Horse With No Name Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Anyway, I think it's quite disturbing that some people think they need to play the feminist card here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shewoman Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Why does that disturb you? It doesn't seem to bother you to see someone call Catelyn a bitch, which is why the feminist card needs to be played. I don't see anyone suggesting that Ned should have made taking care of the kids his priority, and they're as much his children as they are hers. During our medieval/early Renaissance period noble parents didn't spend much time raising their kids. The future Queen Elizabeth I was given her own household and servants in an establishment separate from her parents when she was quite young--2 or 3 years old, I believe (and this was before her mother, Anne Boleyn, fell into disfavor and was executed). Earlier, her sister, the future Mary I, was given her own household in Wales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Courtaud Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote]Catelyn married a Stark, so now she is one and all her duty belongs to Winterfell. Her father is dying, so what? Children are made to outlive their parents![/quote] :o [quote]During our medieval/early Renaissance period noble parents didn't spend much time raising their kids. The future Queen Elizabeth I was given her own household and servants in an establishment separate from her parents when she was quite young--2 or 3 years old, I believe (and this was before her mother, Anne Boleyn, fell into disfavor and was executed). Earlier, her sister, the future Mary I, was given her own household in Wales.[/quote] Elisabeth had an household of her own since a few weeks from birth; it was not unusual. She and Mary were at court for Christmas, but not always. Even in Westeros, noble kids of Bran's age are routinely sent in fosterage away from home, so it's usual for parents not to be present in their children's lives for years and years. Robin was to be sent away to Tywin's or Stannis' households, and he's younger than Bran. And how old are the Frey boys sent to Winterfell? Anyway, what should we think of Ned, who planned to be absent from his sons' life for years, and toke away his daughters from the care of their mother, again for years? Can we call him a bitch, too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan_Sasse Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 I think Catelyn had the right to stay in Riverrun. She would see her kids soon, and her father never again, and she was always close to her family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_BlauerDragon Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote name='iheartseverus' post='1656466' date='Jan 21 2009, 00.24']This whole aspect of the series drives me crazy--Catelyn drives me crazy.[/quote] This is but one of the many facets of Catelyn that drive me to hate her... The deeper you delve into her character, the more you realize that she is selfish, self-centered, un-observant, and cold-hearted... Also, you'll begin to see that despite her deeply un-trusting nature and her moments of remarkable intelligence, she really is very naive and she is not very smart... Once you've gone through the full cycle and seen her for what she truly is, you'll slowly begin to realize that Sansa is EXACTLY like her... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General_Lee Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote name='the Blauer Dragon' post='1657260' date='Jan 21 2009, 22.23']This is but one of the many facets of Catelyn that drive me to hate her... The deeper you delve into her character, the more you realize that she is selfish, self-centered, un-observant, and cold-hearted... Also, you'll begin to see that despite her deeply un-trusting nature and her moments of remarkable intelligence, she really is very naive and she is not very smart...[/quote] Word! So true! [quote]Once you've gone through the full cycle and seen her for what she truly is, you'll slowly begin to realize that Sansa is EXACTLY like her...[/quote] No! I totally disagree. Sansa is not near as "bad" as Catelyn is! Sansa is but a naive child! She might appear selfish but that's just a result of her extreme naivity. She isn't cold-hearted either. I think she really cares about Robert Arynn for example, even though she's probably a bit annoyed by his terrible moods but that doesn't make her a bad person! Sansa's gonna be good, you'll see that before the end comes ;) We'll see that pretty soon actually once we see how she's gonna react to Littlefingers plot of poisoning the young Lord Arynn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iheartseverus Posted January 21, 2009 Author Share Posted January 21, 2009 Except perhaps, that Sansa doesn't relentlessly [i]gloom[/i] her way through life. Catelyn is like Dolorous Edd without any of his humor or wit, oh woe is me, alas and alack, cover the mirrors, black out the sun, woe, woe, woe. I can't stand her! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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