Catelyn's Duty

[General_Lee]

To be honest, it just bores me. Maybe that's because in our society there are so many depressed people and people who think they are depressed but who are just bored and frustrated and thus always in a bad mood that I'm simply sick and tired of all that everything-is-so-bad life-is-so-unfair talk.
Yeah, maybe that's it.

[Shewoman]

I'm with you, Lady Blackfish. I have no children of my own . . . although I've raised a nearly intolerable number of other people's . . .(I lost count of my godchildren somewhere past thirty), but I can't imagine being in a much worse situation than having a child who is apparently near death, another who is apparently near psychosis, and a father who is dying some distance away. If I were in such an unenviable position and happened to have a house full of servants who had already pretty much raised my kids anyway, I think I'd let them keep up the good work and go to my father. I don't think that Catelyn is mimicking depression at this point; I think she's got the real thing.

We've already noted repeatedly on this thread that parents in Westeros, much like parents in our own medieval-but-with-less-throwing-children-out-of-castle-windows period, don't seem to clock a lot of hours with their kids. That's what the huge households of servants are for. Fortunately for Catelyn, she can leave her children in the able hands of those who've already taken care of them for most of their lives.

[Bolton Bastard]

Actually I consider Cat one of the most dutiful in the series. Sure she isn't perfect, she does leave her kids in Winterfell and she does pick favorites in her children (something that irks me to no end).

However, looking at the world around her it was really common to leave your kids and wasn't deemed inappropriate. Kids were weened on wet nurses, small children were given as wards, ect. She did what seems logical to me and left her small children in a place of safety and then strives to help her son as best she could.

Her consul actually seems incredible level headed to me, and points out problems, helps gain allegiance (true the Freys would betray them later but they were needed then), and offers warnings where needed. She was in the position where she could be the most help even if Robb did not wish to take it.

As for her constant complaining, I'll be honest this didn't bother me when I read it. She was a character who was hit extremely hard and became a pessimist from it. Hell, at least she's thinking of what could go wrong instead of her daughter Sansa (Bad Bolton, save for Sansa hate thread). However I do understand how people could be annoyed by her complaints though I personally find that to be why she is the most realistic character in the series, well, until she gets resurrected.

Now, I won't make any excuses for the Jaime incident. She cracked.

[Lady Blackfish]

[quote name='General_Lee' post='1657624' date='Jan 21 2009, 23.24']To be honest, it just bores me. Maybe that's because in our society there are so many depressed people and people who think they are depressed but who are just bored and frustrated and thus always in a bad mood that I'm simply sick and tired of all that everything-is-so-bad life-is-so-unfair talk.
Yeah, maybe that's it.[/quote]I understand it being boring, but that doesn't seem to cover the incredible vitriol it engenders.

She isn't saying she is entitled to anything she doesn't deserve. Life was unfair to her, what [i]is[/i] wrong with thinking it (she never says it, so it's not "talk" so much as "thought") in her own head? You would rather she suffer absolutely silently even with herself? That's a rather unhealthy way to cope, to not even admit to yourself that you feel bad, it's the opposite of what you should do if you want to get yourself better and in shape to help others. I do understand it being boring, but again, people seem to overreact if what they really mean is it's boring. They find it offensive.

I think part of it is because concern for her Tully family (and for Sansa) is perceived as selfish because those things are (seen as) non-Stark or anti-Jon elements. She has to prove herself worthy enough of house Stark, because she dared to not totally assimilate into northern culture. That seems to offend people a lot too, which I don't understand because ASOIAF is all about the multiple perspectives and breaking out of the one-side-defines-the-narrative-goals-of-the-whole-story mold.

[quote name='Shewoman' post='1657649' date='Jan 22 2009, 00.02']I don't think that Catelyn is mimicking depression at this point; I think she's got the real thing.[/quote]I really wouldn't understand anybody thinking it's anything but real. GRRM gets way too much of the experience right. She loses her appetite, she struggles with her faith, she self-isolates, etc. She doesn't falsely think she is depressed, if anything she doesn't seem to fathom the depths of her own depression.

Also, she [i]wants[/i] to do things and distract herself from sitting around with nothing else to do but be sad. But she isn't [i]allowed[/i] to. She has very healthy instincts about dealing with her own condition, the only thing that's missing is anyone helping and supporting her. Instead readers define her value solely by how much she helps others. She is a person too.

[quote name='Shewoman' post='1657649' date='Jan 22 2009, 00.02']We've already noted repeatedly on this thread that parents in Westeros, much like parents in our own medieval-but-with-less-throwing-children-out-of-castle-windows period, don't seem to clock a lot of hours with their kids.[/quote]Yes, I don't see why Catelyn is always held to modern standards while other characters aren't. Well, more to the point, why women are and men aren't (no, I don't believe this is "pulling the feminist card" given my observances of the board over these years). With men, they aren't expected to be more modern because that was just the times and it's naive to expect more enlightened behavior (they whore and wench and rape, of course they whore and wench and rape, them's the times! etc), but women are expected to because ... ?

[quote name='Bolton Bastard' post='1657654' date='Jan 22 2009, 00.09']As for her constant complaining, I'll be honest this didn't bother me when I read it.[/quote]I'm going to pick on you a bit if it's okay, just because you help to illustrate a point. She doesn't actually complain, she just feels:
[indent][size=1][i]Following the "Creating Characters" panel, Linda and I mentioned to George that some people gave Sansa and Catelyn a lot of grief, claiming they "whined" too much.

George was quite adamant that he disagreed with those readers. He pointed out that the problem is that readers often don't seem to make a distinction between internal thought and external speech in a way that an author might prefer. Specifically, in terms of "whining", to him whining is a verbal act -- you actually have to speak to whine. Cat doesn't do that, though -- all her dark, depressed thoughts are kept to herself. Yes, the reader is aware of them, because they read her POV, but she absolutely does not burden other characters with them. Basically, everyone has bad times among the good times, and they think negatively then but just having negative thoughts isn't whining.[/i]

-- [url="http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Interaction_Glasgow_Scotland_UK_August_4_8/"]SSM[/url][/size][/indent]It's constant [i]because[/i] she does exactly what people want her to do: not complain. She doesn't tell anyone, and so she never feels better, so it doesn't go away. She does exactly what people want her to do, she keeps it in, she is stoic. But we're inside her own head and so we know that the feelings don't magically go away. (And if people want to read a story where human feelings magically go away 'cause they're not fun, I think this is the wrong series.)

[Warg Arry]

I have to say that while reading the series. That my feelings were almost identical to IHS's OP.

There were moments that I actually screamed at the book, to go home you stupid woman.
ah uh don't judge me yet.

After reading this thread, I really asked myself why I feel this way.

there is definitely the relating to it as a mother in modern times. The pure and ultimate sacrifices I made personally and we made as a family when my son was gravely ill. In fact i was reading some Cat chapters bedside my sons hospital bed.

Because we also get to see the other side of the story too. a side that Cat her self isn't privy to.
We get to see the effect all the events that have happened are having on her two youngest sons.

I got to have the perspective that Cat knew instinctively. That her son Robb didn't want her there. (not debating his motives in this, but even Cat remarks on this) But she also sees the need Robb has. and really tries to keep him grounded.

We also have the benefit of seeing her fathers health in a completely non-attached, non-emotional way. And without that emotional attachment We see he doesn't even know His daughter is even there. So it becomes easy to ask why she doesn't see that herself.

Her depression is so easy to pigeon hole as being selfish and self involved for those who haven't been truly touched by depression, either felt it or cared for someone going through it. but even in today's standards depression and suicide is consider completely selfish.
Given the circumstances her woe and despair is completely well place and very well written.
After all I never once blamed Lysa for not coming to her fathers bed side. I was a little sadden by it. But to me her actions made sense. but that doesn't mean that Cat chose wrongly, given that she only knew what she knew and felt what she felt and didn't have the insights that we had.

In the beginning when Bran fell. she would not move from his bed. not to eat or bathe. And I think it's very easy to miss the moment that changed. when Summer came to the rescue of bran very effectively. That moment she realised that Bran was protected, that the wolves would protect her children with the ferocity she felt. And that's when she decided to take a more proactive role in getting to the bottom of things. IMO.

I still don't have a lot of love for Cat, but I'm willing to read her chapters in a different light next time. and there will always be a next time ;)

[iheartseverus]

Excellent post, Saurian. Really excellent. I applaud your even-handedness and find you *waves magic wand* [i]'qualified[/i] to comment.' I'm glad I initiated this discussion. Posts like yours make the effort wotthwhile. cheers...

[The SmilingKnight]

[quote]in today's standards depression and suicide is consider completely selfish.[/quote]
No, actually that reaction towards them is completely selfish.

Good post though. Thats how i saw Catelyn.
Im getting really fed up with people complaining about characters ability to be humanly just wrong in some decisions, to make mistakes or to even act stupidly - when that is in fact one of the greatest strengths of the books.

[iheartseverus]

[quote name='Jaquen Hgharr' post='1657749' date='Jan 22 2009, 02.15']No, actually that reaction towards them is completely selfish.

Good post though. Thats how i saw Catelyn.
Im getting really fed up with people complaining about characters ability to be humanly just wrong in some decisions, to make mistakes or to even act stupidly - when that is in fact one of the greatest strengths of the books.[/quote]

But, isn't that what a discussion board is [i]for[/i]? To discuss, complain, argue, dissect the characters as though they were real people? Of [i]course[/i], some characters are 'humanly just wrong in some decisions,' of course! And yes, this is one of the greatest strengths of the books. That's the fun of the discussion. There would be no point at all to a board like westeros.org. if everybody just agreed that 'humans have faults. These books shows those faults in spotlight-glare. Ergo, there's nothing to talk about, best just close the board.'

[Warg Arry]

[quote name='iheartseverus' post='1657735' date='Jan 22 2009, 01.55']Excellent post, Saurian. Really excellent. I applaud your even-handedness and find you *waves magic wand* [i]'qualified[/i] to comment.' I'm glad I initiated this discussion. Posts like yours make the effort wotthwhile. cheers...[/quote]

:blush: ah you're too awesome, I mean kind, I mean both.

Keep up the posts and topics. by sharing input, others (like myself) have the chance to gain new perspective.


[quote]No, actually that reaction towards them is completely selfish.[/quote]

I agree with you. to a large degree we are in one way or another selfish creatures. And our personal reaction to this illness can be selfish. Even in the way we sometimes refuse to see depression as an illness and don't even try to sympathise.

But in regards to depression and suicide. As a person that has been touched by it and counseled others in regards to it. The most common response is. How could he have been so selfish, Why didn't he know we loved him, we told him everyday.
Or you get the anger. how stupid and selfish he is to do this to the people that love him.

While people going through such darkness in their lives often feel like everyone will be better off without them, that they must be the root of their grief and troubles. They can't see a way out. incapable of seeing the hands stretched out to help them. They do dwell ultimately in the things that's happening to them, how they can't cope, how they are alone. how their actions are affecting everything and everyone. They can dwell specifically within themselves all about themselves in a dark and negative way. Because their illness they are suffering renders them incapable of seeing and feeling things in any other, let alone positive, way.
Therefore, often referred to as an act of selfishness.
And selfishness is often attributed to the actions and inner dialogue of Catelyn.

[Lady Blackfish]

iheartseverus - you seem to be still upset after I apologized, can you explain to me what else I could clear up?

[Courtaud]

[quote name='General_Lee' post='1657605' date='Jan 22 2009, 05.07']Because she had duties. And her duties are dismissive of her depressions. Her children are dismissive of her depressions. Not we.[/quote]

Well, you're also rather dismissive about losing a parent. Not everyone feels that since because it's going to happen anyway then it's unimportant. Sure not anyone who actually has lost a parent.

[mormont]

[quote name='the Blauer Dragon' post='1657260' date='Jan 21 2009, 21.23']This is but one of the many facets of Catelyn that drive me to hate her... The deeper you delve into her character, the more you realize that she is selfish, self-centered, un-observant, and cold-hearted...[/quote]

I could not disagree more. Neither on the surface, nor anywhere 'deeper', is Cat selfish, self-centred, un-observant or cold-hearted. In fact, she is the opposite of all these things, and there is copious very clear evidence in the text of her demonstrating her compassion, selflessness, observational skills and insight. I don't have the books with me right now, but there are numerous quotes that directly contradict your assessment.

Of course, sometimes when you 'delve' into a character, what you actually find is the prejudices you brought with you. You admit that you 'hate' Cat: I would suggest that you probably always did, and your 'delving' is actually a search for justification for those feelings.

[quote]Once you've gone through the full cycle and seen her for what she truly is, you'll slowly begin to realize that Sansa is EXACTLY like her...[/quote]

Where to begin with this? 'What she truly is' - hey, there's no authorial secret code here. Cat is what she is portrayed as being, nothing more.

As for the idea that she and Sansa are 'EXACTLY' alike - nonsense. They are actually very different. Cat is practical where Sansa is romantic. Cat sets little store by appearances where Sansa rarely sees past them. Sansa has natural charm, Cat does not. Cat has a temper, Sansa does not. They do have some similarities, but in fact, Arya is much more like Cat than Sansa is.

Finally, this is not a 'Cat hate thread'. It's a mature, adult discussion of Cat's duty. If you feel incapable of having a mature, adult discussion and would prefer to a thread where people do nothing but spill vitriol, please go and find somewhere else to do it.

[Cruella_Da_Oz]

You know, when I was reading the series, I was actually thinking how well everyone takes their unspeakable losses, Cat included, but decided that if GRRM showed full specter of grief of, say, woman losing her children, or brother losing his little brothers, etc, that with amount of darkness in the series, books would get unbearably depressing and slow.

And people apparently think these people "too whiny"? What the heck is too much grief when it comes to losing family members?

[quote]who are just bored and frustrated and thus always in a bad mood[/quote]
I am prone to depressions myself despite being about the opposite of drama queen, therefore I am always sympathetic to other sufferers. That's a bizarre condition that might be hard to understand if you do not suffer from it. It is an illness though and should be treated by others as such, or are ill people 'selfish" for being ill?
But regardless, how can a woman who lost her husband be seen as "bored". Losing a child is something most people never really recover from, and she lost most of hers. She has no idea what's with her daughters and how they are treated by murderers of her husband, her father's dying, her small son is crippled horribly and then later is killed with his little brother. It's suprprising she haven't gone completely mad.

[General_Lee]

[quote]It's suprprising she haven't gone completely mad.[/quote]
She's gone completely mad by then.
She just surpressed it 'till the red wedding. There she tears at her own skin. I mean, that's pretty mad.

[A wilding]

[quote name='iheartseverus' post='1657752' date='Jan 22 2009, 07.27']But, isn't that what a discussion board is [i]for[/i]? To discuss, complain, argue, dissect the characters as though they were real people? Of [i]course[/i], some characters are 'humanly just wrong in some decisions,' of course! And yes, this is one of the greatest strengths of the books. That's the fun of the discussion. There would be no point at all to a board like westeros.org. if everybody just agreed that 'humans have faults. These books shows those faults in spotlight-glare. Ergo, there's nothing to talk about, best just close the board.'[/quote]
Absolutely.

The issue for me personally is when you get posters who have obviously decided to hate a character. They make series of posts, in which not only do they tediously go on about their hate for the character and the horrible things that they want to happen to them, but also make comments that directly contradict the books. This gives the impression that they have rewritten the story inside their heads apparently turning the character they hate into a villain with no redeeming features whatsoever.

This soon gets gets old, especially when you get several posters like this doing a circle jerk.

[Shewoman]

Slipknot, Catelyn did not go mad before the Red Wedding. She was smart enough to insist that the Freys give the Starks and their retainers something to eat, which according to Westeros custom should have protected them. No one else seems to have thought that the Freys might attack the Starks and their men. She was more practical and more accurate than Robb, Edmure, or any of the others who went with them to the Freys'--and not even Catelyn thought they would break the traditions of guest right.

She doesn't lose it until she sees Robb--the last child left to her, as far as she knows--murdered in front of her, and I think few parents could deal with that.

[Shewoman]

It seems to me that in the discussion of Catelyn and the care of her children, she's acting precisely as a noblewoman of her culture would be expected to. In most modern cultures, her behavior might be interpreted as meaning that she was a bad mother, but I don't think it's fair to judge her by the standards of a culture of which she is not a part. Noble and royal parents in our medieval period were not as actively involved in the raising of their children as most parents are today (I posted earlier on this thread about royal children being given their own households and sent away from their parents). That may seem like neglect to us, but it seems clear to me within the series that Old Nan is the woman most of the Stark children think of as a parent--and they don't seem to think that's weird.

[Lord Mord]

General_Lee,

[quote name='General_Lee' post='1656635' date='Jan 21 2009, 05.19']I think Severus' got the truth of it.
Catelyn married a Stark, so now she is one and all her duty belongs to Winterfell.[/quote]


Firstly, she is serving Starks. Explain to me how exactly Bran and Rickon are helped if their king fails them in the field or in his politicking?

So they're lonely. So what? Kids are highly resilient and hers are being tended by very capable, very loving people!



Secondly, her duty is, at least in this context, her presence and her person, and you're saying she [i]belongs[/i] to Winterfell. Forgive me, but I think it is very rude to describe another person as [i]belonging[/i] to anyone or anything.


[quote]Her father is dying, so what? Children are made to outlive their parents! Thats the way things are![/quote]


And that particular moral works very well for you, I take it? Excellent! Of course, it's just as well you'll probably never have to make as tough a decision as she faced, but it's good to discuss differences of morals. Yours are one way, and hers another. Another beautiful facet of human diversity! Woot!


[quote]Lord Hoster was said to be a brave and noble man. Surely he wouldn't have wanted that his daughter wasted time on his dying bed while her children needed her in Winterfell.[/quote]

And yet if he did want her with him, instead of at Winterfell, would you then change your mind about her duty? If not, then this is non sequtiur. If you did, then your argument falls apart, because the duty doesn't exist as an Absolute, only at the whim of her father ... which I notice once again puts a man in charge of what a woman may properly do.


[quote]But that's apparently a part of Catelyns change in character. Once she's been back to Riverrun she forgets about Winterfell[/quote]

Does she forget? I seem to recall that Winterfell was on her mind.


[quote]and falls kind of back into her childhood and suddenly a long suppressed longing for home takes her over.[/quote]

Childhood? I don't understand. Children don't typically advise kings who are also their sons. Children don't usually advise their brothers in full-scale warfare. Children aren't known for their loyalty, to stick by a bedside for hours at a stretch to care for and keep a kind of company for a rotting, ugly, stinky old thing. And when a child is noted for doing such a thing, we consider how [i]brave[/i] that child is, for doing such a noble, selfless, I don't know, [i]adult[/i] thing.


[quote]That's what I think is the reason for Cat's (annoying) behaviour.[/quote]

I didn't see you describe a reason. I saw you give plenty of characterization, some of it colorful, but not to actually describe the source of her behavior. Given your particular sensitivity to children I understand your perspective, though I do not share it.

[Lord Mord]

the Blauer Dragon,

[quote name='the Blauer Dragon' post='1657260' date='Jan 21 2009, 13.23']The deeper you delve into her character, the more you realize that she is selfish,[/quote]

False.


[quote]self-centered,[/quote]

Wrong.


[quote]un-observant,[/quote]

No more so than most people.


[quote]and cold-hearted...[/quote]

Gross overgeneralization.


[quote]Also, you'll begin to see that despite her deeply un-trusting nature and her moments of remarkable intelligence, she really is very naive and she is not very smart...[/quote]

If you're going to talk in absolutes, it's much better not to contradict yourself. It looks silly. :kiss:


[quote]Once you've gone through the full cycle and seen her for what she truly is,[/quote]

If you're practicing your begging-the-question technique, I think you've got it nailed!


[quote]you'll slowly begin to realize that Sansa is EXACTLY like her...[/quote]

And yet she isn't very like her at all. How strange!

[Lord Mord]

iheartseverus,

[quote name='iheartseverus' post='1657277' date='Jan 21 2009, 13.32']Except perhaps, that Sansa doesn't relentlessly [i]gloom[/i] her way through life. Catelyn is like Dolorous Edd without any of his humor or wit, oh woe is me, alas and alack, cover the mirrors, black out the sun, woe, woe, woe. I can't stand her![/quote]


Exactly. It's so boring watching a person go through deep personal trauma in a believable way. Yuck!